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Thread: Can the Raptors realistically be a 'Championship Team' the next 5 years?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Default Can the Raptors realistically be a 'Championship Team' the next 5 years?

    With this current group i say yes. The model that they need to follow is the Indiana or Memphis model.

    I mentioned this on another thread. They need to add a STUD back to the basket power forward. That's what they need. Al Jefferson is a UFA. To me he's a lot like Zach Randolph. Great low post player, great rebounder, just a prototypical power forward. Very underrated player.

    I like to use the Memphis Grizzlies model as an example. If they had Rudy Gay and some of the key players that they traded to Cleveland. Memphis probably would've beaten the Spurs.

    Jonas Valanciunas - Marc Gasol. JV based from what i've seen in his 1st year. Crazy to think but i think he's going to be a better player than Marc Gasol. Needs to stay healthy though.

    Al Jefferson - Zach Randolph. Like i said above, their game is very similar. Both 20/10 type of players.

    Rudy Gay - Tayshaun Prince. Nothing to say here. Gay is the superior player.

    DeMar DeRozan - Tony Allen. Allen is a much better defender but DeRozan is a much better scorer

    Kyle Lowry - Mike Conley. Conley is the better player. But Lowry doesn't really have to play great when you have guys like JV, Jefferson and Gay. Just give the ball to Rudy and get out of the way. Or just pound the ball inside to Big Al or JV.

    The question though is, how can they get Al Jefferson?? i really feel like he's the missing piece on this current group.

    Another option that they can go to is tank next season and hopefully get lucky in the lottery and land Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker(Noah Vonleh is a player as well btw. Keep an eye on him) That route though is very risky.

    Let's say the Raptors move Gay and DeRozan. Without those two i think this team is a 20 win team. If they finish last in the league. There's no guarantee that they're going to get the 1st or 2nd overall pick. What if they end up with the 3rd or even worst 4th overall pick?? now what??

    That's why i'm not in favor of tanking. As much as i'd love to see Wiggins or Parker here. That route is just very risky. Masai needs to work his magic and get Al Jefferson.
    Last edited by TRex; Sat Jun 15th, 2013 at 11:24 PM.
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    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    With this current group i say yes. The model that they need to follow is the Indiana or Memphis model.

    I mentioned this on another thread. They need to add a STUD back to the basket power forward. That's what they need. Al Jefferson is a UFA. To me he's a lot like Zach Randolph. Great low post player, great rebounder, just a prototypical power forward. Very underrated player.

    I like to use the Memphis Grizzlies model as an example. If they had Rudy Gay and some of the key players that they traded to Cleveland. Memphis probably would've beaten the Spurs.

    Jonas Valanciunas - Marc Gasol. JV based from what i've seen in his 1st year. Crazy to think but i think he's going to be a better player than Marc Gasol. Needs to stay healthy though.

    Al Jefferson - Zach Randolph. Like i said above, their game is very similar. Both 20/10 type of players.

    Rudy Gay - Tayshaun Prince. Nothing to say here. Gay is the superior player.

    DeMar DeRozan - Tony Allen. Allen is a much better defender but DeRozan is a much better scorer

    Kyle Lowry - Mike Conley. Conley is the better player. But Lowry doesn't really have to play great when you have guys like JV, Jefferson and Gay. Just give the ball to Rudy and get out of the way. Or just pound the ball inside to Big Al or JV.

    The question though is, how can they get Al Jefferson?? i really feel like he's the missing piece on this current group.

    Another option that they can go to is tank next season and hopefully get lucky in the lottery and land Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker(Noah Vonleh is a player as well btw. Keep an eye on him) That route though is very risky.

    Let's say the Raptors move Gay and DeRozan. Without those two i think this team is a 20 win team. If they finish last in the league. There's no guarantee that they're going to get the 1st or 2nd overall pick. What if they end up with the 3rd or even worst 4th overall pick?? now what??
    The bolded statement contradicts your title. Indiana and Memphis aren't even 'Conference Championship' teams. Also, completely disagree that Memphis would've beaten the Spurs with Gay in the lineup. They were clearly a better team after his departure. All that being said, this team CAN be a championship team in 5 years, however, this ROSTER, cannot. Only player I see on this roster that would be part of a Raptors championship team is JV. DD, Gay, Lowry will be long gone by the time we win our first title.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
    The bolded statement contradicts your title. Indiana and Memphis aren't even 'Conference Championship' teams. Also, completely disagree that Memphis would've beaten the Spurs with Gay in the lineup. They were clearly a better team after his departure. All that being said, this team CAN be a championship team in 5 years, however, this ROSTER, cannot. Only player I see on this roster that would be part of a Raptors championship team is JV. DD, Gay, Lowry will be long gone by the time we win our first title.
    Memphis started the season 8-1, with Gay on the team. They pretty much stayed the same when he left. If you recall, every game of that conference finals series was a close game, Memphis just couldn't close it out like the Spurs could. In game 4 they got so many chances to take the lead in the final minuted but couldn't do it. Basically, if Randolph hadn't been a complete piece of shit in that series Memphis would have had a real shot. I really think if Gay would have helped them.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Soft Euro's Avatar
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    If we 'lose' DeRozan and Gay, we might actually win more games.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Of course they could.

    Any team could.
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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    I think you vastly overestimate the need for a (slow, defensively useless) back-to-the-basket PF like Jefferson. In fact, Jefferson is such a horrible defender, that despite being a bit short and wholly unable to play above the rim, he is mostly used at C because he's just too much a liability against PFs.

    Can the Raptors be a championship team in 5 years? Sure, why not. But I certainly doubt that Al Jefferson is the big missing piece, and I certainly don't understand this craze to emulate two teams with less resources and pretty different roster makeups than the Raptors. I think people get carried away when Casey says things like he wants to play that style....That just means he wants his guys to compete hard and be physical, characteristics that are still lacking among far too many Raptors.

    I have no easy suggestions to make them a contender. The roster is still too flawed, and part of that may be addressed by growth among players like JV and Ross.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie knowledgep's Avatar
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    Al Jefferson is not the answer, but sure, we could be a championship contender in 5 years.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Why do the Raptors have to model themselves around another team? Why can't the Raptors create their own identity and have other teams follow them?

    The Raptors tried modelling themselves after the Mavericks.... and then ended up trying to build around Bargnani. They should not be modelling themselves around another team with inferior players. And JV right now is no where close to Gasol. He could be but there is no guarantee that he will be.

    As for championship contender? Sure, why not?

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    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    Memphis started the season 8-1, with Gay on the team. They pretty much stayed the same when he left. If you recall, every game of that conference finals series was a close game, Memphis just couldn't close it out like the Spurs could. In game 4 they got so many chances to take the lead in the final minuted but couldn't do it. Basically, if Randolph hadn't been a complete piece of shit in that series Memphis would have had a real shot. I really think if Gay would have helped them.
    Almost every stat available counters your argument. Memphis scored 105 points per 100 possessions this postseason vs 99.6 last season with Gay. Playoff field goal percentage went up 2.4% this year. Defence dramatically improved. Now I'm not overshadowing the fact that they had big improvements from guys like Gasol and Conley but they clearly saw that hanging on to an offensive dominant, inefficient player like Gay, just because he "might" hit a clutch shot, was not to their advantage.

    As for the bolded part, he left and they didn't get any worse. If he was so crucial to their success they would've never made it where they did. Overlooked here is also the fact that the Spurs are a very, very good team. They're shutting down Miami wings better than anyone. Gay would've been a non-factor.

    It's easy to look at close games and say Gay would've won it for them, however would those games even be close if Gay was there? I'm not so sure.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

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    Not to mentioin that Gay wasn't traded after 9 games and that we already established in another thread that they actually won more close games after Gay left. Anyone who thinks Gay is clutch should check his clutch percentage; it ain't pretty.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Just saying, they were a good team with him and a good team without him. Memphis lacked any real offensive threat in the WCF, having him may have helped ZBO play better by taking a bit of the pressure off his shoulders. I just think having him couldn't have hurt them, they were so close to winning all four of those games they lost. Like, wtf kind of impact did Tayshaun Prince have in that series?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
    It's easy to look at close games and say Gay would've won it for them, however would those games even be close if Gay was there? I'm not so sure.
    That's BS, you have no way of knowing that. That's just you taking a shot at Gay to further prove your point.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I think you find evidence to support your view. For example I can't help but think about Memphis' 23 of 38 games vs <.500 teams and then meeting a banged up griffin and Paul in rd 1 and no Westbrook in rd 2

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    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    That's BS, you have no way of knowing that. That's just you taking a shot at Gay to further prove your point.
    How is my point any different than yours saying Gay would've won? That's just you backing Gay to further prove YOUR point. There's also no way of knowing if he would've helped them win the WCF. Hence, I said "I'm not so sure". Never declared any of that to be fact. All I'm saying is if it looks, plays, and stats like an inefficient player...it's probably Rudy Gay.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    I don't think you can call either Memphis or Indy, championship contenders. I don't think you can even call Memphis conference championship contenders, because they got swept by the spurs, need more 3 point shooting, lost their coach, and got lucky with the injury to westbrooke, and are in a VERY tough conference (both LA teams, up and coming warriors, and a Mavs team that hates sucking).

    Indy though, is conference final contenders because they went 7 games against the heat, including one overtime loss, although the derrick Rose injury is similar to the westbrooke injury argument, Pacers were without Danny Granger, and their biggest weakness is their bench.

    I don't think it's realistic to expect your team is a championship contender, but I do think you can and should expect your team to be a conference finals contender.

    Back to the point of this whole thread, I'm not sure that the raps have to the guys to get us their within 5 years, that said I do expect the org to do something about that. Whether that's a retool or a rebuild is still unclear, but I'm pretty much ready to part with everyone whose initials aren't JV (although, I keep amir in almost every scenario. Amir is my boy).
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
    How is my point any different than yours saying Gay would've won? That's just you backing Gay to further prove YOUR point. There's also no way of knowing if he would've helped them win the WCF. Hence, I said "I'm not so sure". Never declared any of that to be fact. All I'm saying is if it looks, plays, and stats like an inefficient player...it's probably Rudy Gay.
    Agree to disagree. I don't think Rudy would have made the team any worse in those conference finals. Especially when Conely and Z-Bo are struggling like they were and Gasol only kind of showing up.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    I agree that using an Indiana model doesn't really pertain to "championship contenders" because obviously they aren't as of right now. Regardless, I still think this is a good model to follow, looking at how much a team like the Pacers has IMPROVED in the last 5-odd years. With continued improvement from Paul George, and a realization from Hibbert that he's taller than every other center in the league, AND taking into account that they took Miami to 7 games this year, they definitely have the potential to become a championship contender in the next 2-3 years.

    We have a PG that can space the floor as well as penetrate the defense in Lowry. I see George Hill as more of a scoring guard on a team that already has a bunch of scoring from every other starter, so having a playmaker like Lowry could be more effective.

    I see DeMar and Lance Stephenson as having relatively the same game on offense. DeMar is DEFINITELY the better scorer of the two, but what they have in common is that they both need to have the ball in their hands to provide some sort of threat on that end. I also see Gay and Paul George having similar games. They're both athletic wings that can shoot the three and attack the rim.

    They also have their differences though. Both Stephenson and George will give up the ball willingly in a given situation, whereas we'll see Rudy jack up a horrible midrange shot instead of making the right play. Also, from a defensive standpoint, both Stephenson and George are near-elite perimeter defenders. DeMar and Rudy definitely have the potential to have good defensive abilities with their athleticism, but they need to be more consistent.

    DeMar and Rudy do look better ON PAPER then Stephenson and George, but to work better together as a 1-2 punch they need to put a little more work in on the defensive end and becoming more efficient scorers. You can develop a better rhythm as a scorer by getting into a rhythm on the other side of the ball.

    David West can post up but has become more of a spot-up shooter in recent years. Amir has proven he can hit a jumper from outside the paint when needed, but he needs to work on a bit of consistency in order to become more reliable. & JV is really just a smaller Hibbert. He can post up, shoot from outside and play great post defense.
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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Of course they could.

    Any team could.
    Indeed, although the odds are vastly against it.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    I agree that using an Indiana model doesn't really pertain to "championship contenders" because obviously they aren't as of right now.
    They took the Heat to the limit, played them just as well as the Spurs are right now. It's not obvious to me that they aren't.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Indeed, although the odds are vastly against it.
    Well, yes.

    Could they and the probability of them are different talking points.

    The Raptors are lucky in that misery loves company and they would be in the company of the majority of the league.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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