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Thread: Happy Draft Day Everyone! Big changes coming? What do you want to see happen?

  1. #81
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Problem i see is that still doesn't solve his lack of range or limited contributions elsewhere or reliance on being spoon fed off screens.
    Can't agree more.

    However, I guess my position is more that of a 'wait and see' .. All of the stats we are analyzing are based on last year when he was paid a fraction of the new contract. We won't be able to realistically state that he is overpaid until he's at least played a portion of the 13/14 season.

    We can speculate and extrapolate based on seasons past, but until Demar checks in for the 2013 season, I'm not making any claims one way or the other in terms of his financial compensation relative to his contribution on the court.
    In Masai we Trust.

  2. #82
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Phez you can't bring things like facts to this debate. It's been tried. Don't show these people analytic stats that show his player value either. His win share value had a massive jump last year-- don't mention that. He's in 20 of Toronto's 20 best statistical 5 man lineups (http://www.82games.com/1213/1213TOR2.HTM)...but he's horrible!

    Hey if they trade him, they trade him. But let's look at dude for what he is. Bargnani NEVER had the stats Demar has with an even higher usage per 48. Dude is pretty solid.
    Using Bargnani as a comparison. A sign of desperation
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  4. #83
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Can't agree more.

    However, I guess my position is more that of a 'wait and see' .. All of the stats we are analyzing are based on last year when he was paid a fraction of the new contract. We won't be able to realistically state that he is overpaid until he's at least played a portion of the 13/14 season.

    We can speculate and extrapolate based on seasons past, but until Demar checks in for the 2013 season, I'm not making any claims one way or the other in terms of his financial compensation relative to his contribution on the court.
    Theoretically, couldn't we take the "wait and see" approach with every player? Each would have the potential to improve to a certain degree on some level.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  6. #84
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Theoretically, couldn't we take the "wait and see" approach with every player? Each would have the potential to improve to a certain degree on some level.
    I would argue some are worth more of a wait and see than others....

    Landry Fields - wait and see (since he has shown us before what he is capable of)

  7. #85
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Can't agree more.

    However, I guess my position is more that of a 'wait and see' .. All of the stats we are analyzing are based on last year when he was paid a fraction of the new contract. We won't be able to realistically state that he is overpaid until he's at least played a portion of the 13/14 season.

    We can speculate and extrapolate based on seasons past, but until Demar checks in for the 2013 season, I'm not making any claims one way or the other in terms of his financial compensation relative to his contribution on the court.
    Very much agreed on new contract not starting until next season.

    I just don't hold a lot of hope for a guy with 3 years at 35-37mpg under his belt.

    We shall see soon enough..... Unless tonight is cra cra.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  9. #86
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Theoretically, couldn't we take the "wait and see" approach with every player? Each would have the potential to improve to a certain degree on some level.
    Not necessarily

    I'm not going to 'wait and see' what Aaron Gray turns into ... We all know what Aaron Gray is and forever will be.
    Just like Telfair. No sense in using the 'wait and see' approach on him ... he is who he is for the most part, minus some maturation.

    But guys like Terrence Ross, Quincy Acy, Demar Derozan etc. are still very much like Play Doh, where from season to season ALOT could change and develop.

    Not to mention not every player is having their worth and value questioned.
    Therefore, with alot of them, there's nothing to 'wait and see' for.
    In Masai we Trust.

  10. #87
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Phez you can't bring things like facts to this debate. It's been tried. Don't show these people analytic stats that show his player value either. His win share value had a massive jump last year-- don't mention that. He's in 20 of Toronto's 20 best statistical 5 man lineups (http://www.82games.com/1213/1213TOR2.HTM)...but he's horrible!

    Hey if they trade him, they trade him. But let's look at dude for what he is. Bargnani NEVER had the stats Demar has with an even higher usage per 48. Dude is pretty solid.
    You can bring facts, you just need to interpret them correctly.

    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post212643

    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post212660

    Along those lines, his win share did jump last season but it is still 0.2 below average despite playing approximately 40% more minutes than the average SG.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  12. #88
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Stats are great at reinforcing what you already believe.

  13. #89
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Stats are great at reinforcing what you already believe.
    True dat.

    Stats and the eye test... A winning combo!
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  15. #90
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    with so much excitement I cant help but feel theres a great depression coming lol.

  16. #91
    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Would be even more frustrating if Boston blows it up, and somehow lands Wiggins :|
    Wiggins is a Laker, its a done deal.

    Dwight is not coming back, Kobe is gonna miss the start of the season, and for the 1st time the 14th pick jumps to #1. There is no way in hell, that the NBA's ultimate cash cow becomes a bottom team. Period.

  17. #92
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    with so much excitement I cant help but feel theres a great depression coming lol.
    lol, yup. Shouldn't surprise anyone if absolutely nothing happens tonight.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  18. #93
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Not necessarily

    I'm not going to 'wait and see' what Aaron Gray turns into ... We all know what Aaron Gray is and forever will be.
    Just like Telfair. No sense in using the 'wait and see' approach on him ... he is who he is for the most part, minus some maturation.

    But guys like Terrence Ross, Quincy Acy, Demar Derozan etc. are still very much like Play Doh, where from season to season ALOT could change and develop.

    Not to mention not every player is having their worth and value questioned.
    Therefore, with alot of them, there's nothing to 'wait and see' for.
    I suppose that's where the differences in opinions lie. I see DeRozan more in the Telfair and Gray category (not in terms of talent, but in terms of having already reached their ceiling). I just don't see DeRozan taking any significant steps forward.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  20. #94
    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out where management stands with the whole "rebuild vs. tweak" debate.
    I think that will obviously drive everything.

    I personally hope they go the path of tweaking, as I believe this team has some good pieces that can be used to build around.

    So .. pick up a couple of Late 1st/ early 2nd Rounders, while giving up minimal assets (Bargs, Kleiza, Ca$h etc.)
    Hoping they keep at least Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Amir and JV. Might not be possible though. "Gotta spend money to make money" as they say.
    I would imagine there are are more reasons to keep their intentions to themselves, then there are telling everyone what their plans are. Change is coming. Not only to the roster, but to the way this organization runs their business. I'm happy to wait, speculate, and hope.

  21. #95
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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    Wiggins is a Laker, its a done deal.
    Maybe if you believe the draft-fixing conspiracy theories. In the real world, Kobe will be back for most of next season, which may well be his last season, and Kobe don't tank.

  22. #96
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Using Bargnani as a comparison. A sign of desperation
    Desperation? Dude I already said, "If they trade him they trade him." In other words, I'm cool with them trading him. Glad you cut that out. I love when people put words in my mouth (kind of cute -- that's sarcasm). All I was saying was dude is a solid player and ya'll acting like he's not. Can facts actually be used? Can people actually read without creating stories that don't exist?

  23. #97
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    If wiggins lands in Boston or LA you can kiss any chances of him repping Toronto Raptors goodbye.

  24. #98
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Maybe if you believe the draft-fixing conspiracy theories. In the real world, Kobe will be back for most of next season, which may well be his last season, and Kobe don't tank.
    Indeed.....


  25. #99
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Desperation? Dude I already said, "If they trade him they trade him." In other words, I'm cool with them trading him. Glad you cut that out. I love when people put words in my mouth (kind of cute -- that's sarcasm). All I was saying was dude is a solid player and ya'll acting like he's not. Can facts actually be used? Can people actually read without creating stories that don't exist?
    Easy there. It was just a joke.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  26. #100
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You can bring facts, you just need to interpret them correctly.

    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post212643

    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post212660

    Along those lines, his win share did jump last season but it is still 0.2 below average despite playing approximately 40% more minutes than the average SG.
    Again. My point is he's a solid player and not the clown that he is being perceived as. How information is interpreted is another debate that I'm willing to have. The people swinging the biggest swords here are bringing the least amount of information to the debate. Let's put it all out there, compare it to other teams' starting Shooting Guards and then make an educated decision. Hey someone with an analytic mind can mine through it and then we can have this debate. I'd rather miss use information and get the information out there for debate than keep info to my chest because it disproves my point.

    If I'm wrong I'm wrong. But I suspect that if we compared Demar to starting shooting guards across the board dude comes out in the upper half of the league. That's not saying much, but can you name a Raptors SG in the recent past who they can say that about?

    Don't get it twisted. I have a personal list of players that I would trade Demar for in a heartbeat, but the vitriol of the anti-Demar people is straight toxic for no reason.

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