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Thread: Happy Draft Day Everyone! Big changes coming? What do you want to see happen?

  1. #761
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    Shoot me but I'd much rather have Kawhi Leonard than Rudy. At least Kawhi tries on defense.
    That's preferrence though. On pure talent and skill Gay is better. I don't think Leonard would be this good if he was on the raptors.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    That's preferrence though. On pure talent and skill Gay is better. I don't think Leonard would be this good if he was on the raptors.
    No one is this good when they come to the raptors. They are all stars everywhere else

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    No one is this good when they come to the raptors. They are all stars everywhere else
    He is a role player playing in a system and excelling.

    Take away Duncan, Parker, Manu, and pop then you have his raptor experience.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    It's good to be loyal, and I am not a DeRozan basher, but man, you need to lift up those glasses periodically or you are going to have a head on collision with a rose you didn't see coming.
    You don't think DeRozan can be better than Joe Johnson, K Mart, and Crawford? I don't think i'm being thaat much of a homer here.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    You don't think DeRozan can be better than Joe Johnson, K Mart, and Crawford? I don't think i'm being thaat much of a homer here.
    Crawford is the only one I'm not going to accuse you of being a homer on. Buuuuut he can shoot the 3 and create his own shot.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    You don't think DeRozan can be better than Joe Johnson, K Mart, and Crawford? I don't think i'm being thaat much of a homer here.
    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Crawford is the only one I'm not going to accuse you of being a homer on. Buuuuut he can shoot the 3 and create his own shot.
    If it's a question of who do you want on your team,
    Joe Johnson at 32 years and $20M,
    K Mart at 30 years and $13M,
    Crawford at 33 years and $5.2M,

    or DeRozan at 23 and $9.5 (note, we haven't seen what he brings to the table yet at that price),

    I take DD all day, every day.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    If it's a question of who do you want on your team,
    Joe Johnson at 32 years and $20M,
    K Mart at 30 years and $13M,
    Crawford at 33 years and $5.2M,

    or DeRozan at 23 and $9.5 (note, we haven't seen what he brings to the table yet at that price),

    I take DD all day, every day.
    Agree with Joe Johnson.

    Regarding K-Mart and Crawford, disagree.

    I'm going to assume DD stays what he is. I have asked anyone and everyone on the forums to find an example of a 23/24 year old with 4 years experience having played 35-37mpg over previous 3 seasons missing just 3 games who suddenly takes a huge leap forward. I've yet had anyone offer such player. I'm not sure one exists.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Sam17's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Agree with Joe Johnson.

    Regarding K-Mart and Crawford, disagree.

    I'm going to assume DD stays what he is. I have asked anyone and everyone on the forums to find an example of a 23/24 year old with 4 years experience having played 35-37mpg over previous 3 seasons missing just 3 games who suddenly takes a huge leap forward. I've yet had anyone offer such player. I'm not sure one exists.

    With an insane work ethic like his, why can't DeRozan be the first?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Sam17 wrote: View Post
    With an insane work ethic like his, why can't DeRozan be the first?
    There is no reason why he couldn't.

    I just don't like the probability.

    I guess tomorrow could also be the first day where the sun doesn't rise, too.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Agree with Joe Johnson.

    Regarding K-Mart and Crawford, disagree.

    I'm going to assume DD stays what he is. I have asked anyone and everyone on the forums to find an example of a 23/24 year old with 4 years experience having played 35-37mpg over previous 3 seasons missing just 3 games who suddenly takes a huge leap forward. I've yet had anyone offer such player. I'm not sure one exists.
    That's pretty finite criteria, so I'm not surprised nobody has even spent the time trying to find an example, but just using one of the above comparisons, Joe Johnson at 23 and 3 years experience, vs DD at 23 and 4 years experience (though lockout year makes it more like 3.5 at best):
    FG% - JJ 43%, DD 44.5%
    3P% - JJ 30.5%, DD 28.3%
    FT% - JJ 75%, DD 83%

    Not much to choose between those numbers. JJ played 40+ minutes that year, with Nash feeding him cherries. Comparing rebounds and assists per 36 minutes, JJ had a mere 0.4 rebounds more, and 1.5 assists more. 3 years later, JJ began his 5 year run of All-Star games.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I was looking through BBR.. there are only 40 players ever that have had 15ppg, averaged 30mpg and started in 290 games for their first 4 seasons:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...r_by=pts_per_g

    Of the 40 couldn't find a single guy that made a huge leap from year 4 to year 5. Because of DeMar's work ethic I would assume he will plateau for a few years before he gets worse, but I don't see him getting exponentially better either.. the probability would be very very low.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I was looking through BBR.. there are only 40 players ever that have had 15ppg, averaged 30mpg and started in 290 games for their first 4 seasons:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...r_by=pts_per_g

    Of the 40 couldn't find a single guy that made a huge leap from year 4 to year 5. Because of DeMar's work ethic I would assume he will plateau for a few years before he gets worse, but I don't see him getting exponentially better either.. the probability would be very very low.
    Once again, very finite criteria to judge upon. "40 players ever", out of how many thousands? Whatever, people who make good living evaluating talent in the NBA chose the young man to attend the Team USA camp. Strange that they seem to see something that many disgruntled Raps fans don't. In any case, we've yet to see what he'll be bringing to the table in a few months, at 24 and on his new contract. Personally, I'm looking forward to it.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    That's pretty finite criteria, so I'm not surprised nobody has even spent the time trying to find an example, but just using one of the above comparisons, Joe Johnson at 23 and 3 years experience, vs DD at 23 and 4 years experience (though lockout year makes it more like 3.5 at best):
    FG% - JJ 43%, DD 44.5%
    3P% - JJ 30.5%, DD 28.3%
    FT% - JJ 75%, DD 83%

    Not much to choose between those numbers. JJ played 40+ minutes that year, with Nash feeding him cherries. Comparing rebounds and assists per 36 minutes, JJ had a mere 0.4 rebounds more, and 1.5 assists more. 3 years later, JJ began his 5 year run of All-Star games.
    Holy selective take of stats.

    Lockout year would make it 3.81 years for DD compared to 3 for JJ.

    You chose year 3. In year 2 JJ shot 36.6% from 3pt. In year 4 he averaged 47.8% from 3pt. Plus he was always a good rebounder and creator for others.

    Besides '01-'02 and '03-'04, JJ has never shot less than 35.6% from 3pt.
    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/co...utf8=%E2%9C%93

    JJ in his 4th year with PHX averaged 4.7 rebs per game and 3.2 ast per36.
    DD averaged 3.8 rebs and 2.4 ast per36.

    JJ averaged 24% more rebounds and 33% more assists after year 4. That is not insignificant and that only highlights the difference in talent between the two players. JJ>>>>DD

    Also, JJ made a jump to the next level after year 4 in ATLANTA because he became the franchise player and go to guy. That was not happening in PHX with Nash, Stoudemire, and Marion (in his prime).

    DeRozan has already been option 1a or 1b for 3 seasons.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  17. #774
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Holy selective take of stats.

    Lockout year would make it 3.81 years for DD compared to 3 for JJ.

    You chose year 3. In year 2 JJ shot 36.6% from 3pt. In year 4 he averaged 47.8% from 3pt. Plus he was always a good rebounder and creator for others.

    Besides '01-'02 and '03-'04, JJ has never shot less than 35.6% from 3pt.
    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/co...utf8=%E2%9C%93

    JJ in his 4th year with PHX averaged 4.7 rebs per game and 3.2 ast per36.
    DD averaged 3.8 rebs and 2.4 ast per36.

    JJ averaged 24% more rebounds and 33% more assists after year 4. That is not insignificant and that only highlights the difference in talent between the two players. JJ>>>>DD

    Also, JJ made a jump to the next level after year 4 in ATLANTA because he became the franchise player and go to guy. That was not happening in PHX with Nash, Stoudemire, and Marion (in his prime).

    DeRozan has already been option 1a or 1b for 3 seasons.
    Wow, "holy selective stats"???? So your finite criteria to compare, making it virtually impossible for people to meet your comparison challenge, isn't selective, but my comparison of most basic stats, at the exact same age, with similar development/experience time, is selective. Whatever.

    "Lockout year would make it 3.81 years for DD compared to 3 for JJ." I guess you choose to ignore other factors in the lockout season, than your selective number of games played. I prefer to look at bigger picture and see 5 months of off season with zero ability to even talk to coaching staff, never mind actually work with them, virtually no training camp with a new head coach, and a cruelly compressed season composed of virtually zero development time,,,,, as big factors in saying that wasn't even worth 1/2 a season of normal development,,,,,,,,,, but stick to those non-selective number of games played if it serves your purpose.

    The rest is yet more attempts to define finite criteria for comparison, but have fun. I tried to point out that 23 year olds can make big progress when they work hard on their game, but you're way too determined to prove your opinion as fact for my time. Hell, I see above that you say that it's "possible" that DD can make big strides, out of one side of your mouth, then immediately follow it up with comparing it to the possibility of the sun not coming up, an impossibility. Hyperbole anyway?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    what's going to be the worst kick in the balls is when kabongo goes undrafted and mu doesn't even extend an offer.
    i'm a prophet
    @jerboat

  19. #776
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    He is a role player playing in a system and excelling.

    Take away Duncan, Parker, Manu, and pop then you have his raptor experience.
    read this as "the raptor experience" and laughed pretty hard
    @jerboat

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  21. #777
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Wow, "holy selective stats"???? So your finite criteria to compare, making it virtually impossible for people to meet your comparison challenge, isn't selective, but my comparison of most basic stats, at the exact same age, with similar development/experience time, is selective. Whatever.

    "Lockout year would make it 3.81 years for DD compared to 3 for JJ." I guess you choose to ignore other factors in the lockout season, than your selective number of games played. I prefer to look at bigger picture and see 5 months of off season with zero ability to even talk to coaching staff, never mind actually work with them, virtually no training camp with a new head coach, and a cruelly compressed season composed of virtually zero development time,,,,, as big factors in saying that wasn't even worth 1/2 a season of normal development,,,,,,,,,, but stick to those non-selective number of games played if it serves your purpose.

    The rest is yet more attempts to define finite criteria for comparison, but have fun. I tried to point out that 23 year olds can make big progress when they work hard on their game, but you're way too determined to prove your opinion as fact for my time. Hell, I see above that you say that it's "possible" that DD can make big strides, out of one side of your mouth, then immediately follow it up with comparing it to the possibility of the sun not coming up, an impossibility. Hyperbole anyway?
    lol - my finite criteria is DeRozan.

    You are right. It is likely closer to 3.5 than 3.81 based on a lot of the factors you gave.

    You tried to point out 23 year olds can make big progress - and you did! The problem is the big progress came with a bigger opportunity. How much more of an opportunity to show what a player is capable of over the last 3 seasons does DeRozan get? He has been essentially the first option for most of that time due to Bargnani's injuries. As an aside when you say player x had just 1 rebound more per game than player y per36 minutes and we are only talking 3/4/5 rebounds, 1 rebound is a dramatic increase - that was my point.

    There are 40 players by the way according to planetmars search of players:
    1-4th season
    mpg > 30
    ppg > 15
    games started > 290


    Lets try another search... I'll do my own since I'm the one asking for someone to find me a player and I will loosen criteria that planetmars used:
    1-4th season
    mpg > 30
    games played > 280 (avg 70 games per season)
    field goal attempts per game > 11

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...r_by=pts_per_g

    194 players come up for all positions over nearly 70 years.

    Much like planetmars, I've yet to find a player who made a huge leap from year 4 to year 5 and I agree with his results. There were players who saw dramatic increases in shooting percentages from year 4 to year 5 but if you look at year 1/2/3 usually there is a history or prior shown ability to make the shot.

    With the amount of opportunity that DeRozan has been given, you know what you are getting.


    A big issue people seem to be forgetting, neglecting, or are in denial over is this: work ethic does not replace natural talent.

    Look through the careers of the type of players everyone is hoping DeRozan will become - they showed potential for greatness early in their career.

    As for my hyberbole, that was exactly the point. 70 years of NBA history and we can't find a single player who made a significant jump from year 4 to year 5 after being given 3 years of unlimited minutes and opportunities. For DeRozan to earn that contract, a significant jump in 3 point shooting, defense, rebounding, and assists is needed.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  22. #778
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    ...I have asked anyone and everyone on the forums to find an example of a 23/24 year old with 4 years experience having played 35-37mpg over previous 3 seasons missing just 3 games who suddenly takes a huge leap forward. I've yet had anyone offer such player. I'm not sure one exists.
    After four years in the league Steve Nash was 26. Over the next three years he kind of plateaued averaged 34 minutes a game, shot a FG% of .478, 3pt% of .424 and averaged 7.4 assists a game.

    The four years after that he improved. His FG% was .504, 3pt% of .432 and averaged 10.6 assists a game.

    Just did this for laughs. DD is not Steve Nash. Having said that, Nash took his game very seriously and is famous for how hard he worked in the off-season. I don't know if he picked up his intensity after 5 or 6 years in the league, because after his first 4 years he kind of plateaued, for three years, then his numbers took off, as I have indicated. I don't believe he suddenly changed genetically. If he didn't start juicing, then the change had to be mental, in terms of attitude, and also in terms of effort during the off-season.
    Last edited by Puffer; Sat Jun 29th, 2013 at 05:32 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    - I want to see the Bledsoe/DeRozan trade happen.
    - Build the team around JV and Gay
    - I want to see them acquire or sign an all-star caliber PF like an Al Jefferson.
    - I want Lowry and Bargnani gone
    - Seth Curry!!
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

  24. #780
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    After four years in the league Steve Nash was 26. Over the next three years he kind of plateaued averaged 34 minutes a game, shot a FG% of .478, 3pt% of .424 and averaged 7.4 assists a game.

    The four years after that he improved. His FG% was .504, 3pt% of .432 and averaged 10.6 assists a game.

    Just did this for laughs. DD is not Steve Nash. Having said that, Nash took his game very seriously and is famous for how hard he worked in the off-season. I don't know if he picked up his intensity after 5 or 6 years in the league, because after his first 4 years he kind of plateaued, for three years, then his numbers took off, as I have indicated. I don't believe he suddenly changed genetically. If he didn't start juicing, then the change had to be mental, in terms of attitude, and also in terms of effort during the off-season.
    The shift to a new team and 7 secs or less combined with already stellar percentages makes it different circumstances. If he went from 23% to 43% I'd be all over it. Nash already had talent and skills.

    Definitely is great example of turning it up a n

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