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Thread: Where do we go, Sweet Child? Where do we go?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The belief is the Raps are fine because:

    1) DD will do something no one has done in nearly 70 years of NBA basketball: become significantly better after playing 9000 minutes in the league, and

    2) JV will dominate and become elite very soon.
    Id say my optimism comes from seeing how this team can play without BC breathing down DCs neck,
    Kyle Lowry returning to his usual abilities,
    Derozan improving his 3pt% by the same amount as he improved it last year (it would bring him to a .300%)
    Rudy to feel more comfortable in this system after a training camp
    Val improving and being utilized correctly
    and Ross improving and being utilized correctly.

    I dont think I am asking for too much here. Remember last year we also started 4-19, and picked it up to play at a higher level. I saw a lot last year in 2, 5 game winning streaks (which we didnt have ONCE since I believe 2007) which showed a team playing cohesively and to their talents.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    I feel like if we were the fans of any of these other teams like Washington or Detroit we would be having the exact same argument although the roles would be reversed. We'd be talking about how shitty our teams are and how we aren't even as good as Toronto.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Id say my optimism comes from seeing how this team can play without BC breathing down DCs neck,
    Kyle Lowry returning to his usual abilities,
    Derozan improving his 3pt% by the same amount as he improved it last year (it would bring him to a .300%)
    Rudy to feel more comfortable in this system after a training camp
    Val improving and being utilized correctly
    and Ross improving and being utilized correctly.

    I dont think I am asking for too much here. Remember last year we also started 4-19, and picked it up to play at a higher level. I saw a lot last year in 2, 5 game winning streaks (which we didnt have ONCE since I believe 2007) which showed a team playing cohesively and to their talents.
    I have a new thread coming on the first bold.

    To the 2nd bold I say the Raps went 10-16 with Gay after the trade before winning 7 of 9 in the infamous #AprilFoolsGoldRun. That puts them at 17-18.
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    People also overestimate how shitty this team is. You guys talk like we're the fucking Charlotte Bobcats. Lol talking like Detroit and Washington light years ahead of us on the road to championships.
    Um, they are way ahead of us. They didn't do it through a dedicated tank - they mostly did it through years of sucking and eventually lucking into it. But both of those teams have good starting lineups, added more quality pieces through the draft this year, and they both have money to burn this year on free agents.

    Our record against Detroit last year was .500 - three and three, with equal numbers of wins and losses before and after the Rudy trade. Our record against Washington was 3-2, but two of our wins came while basically their entire team was injured and when they were healthy they beat us up good. These are not teams we beat easily; we are not significantly better than them. We only had five more wins than either of them last season. They've both already gotten better while we've been standing still.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I have a new thread coming on the first bold.

    To the 2nd bold I say the Raps went 10-16 with Gay after the trade before winning 7 of 9 in the infamous #AprilFoolsGoldRun. That puts them at 17-18.
    Matt stop talking about #AprilFoolsGoldRun like we shouldn't be proud to have won those games. Wins are wins, you gotta start somewhere, and if the team is as bad as everyone here claims them to be shouldn't we be even more happy that they won those games and that we got to see our two best players aren't terrible 3-point shooters and can dominate bench line-ups on playoff teams?

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I have a new thread coming on the first bold.

    To the 2nd bold I say the Raps went 10-16 with Gay after the trade before winning 7 of 9 in the infamous #AprilFoolsGoldRun. That puts them at 17-18.
    I think during that run, both Gay and Derozans 3pt% went up big! I think it shows that there is a POSSIBILITY for them to hit their 3's with at least average consistency!
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  7. #47
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    And besides, the AprilFoolsGoldRun was 5 games. Not 7. It went Chi, Chi, Broklyn, Atl, Boston. Those were the games where the opposing teams benched their best players during the second halves.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    And besides, the AprilFoolsGoldRun was 5 games. Not 7. It went Chi, Chi, Broklyn, Atl, Boston. Those were the games where the opposing teams benched their best players during the second halves.
    The Raptors played 9 games in April and went 7 for 9.
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  9. #49
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    I think during that run, both Gay and Derozans 3pt% went up big! I think it shows that there is a POSSIBILITY for them to hit their 3's with at least average consistency!
    I have a thread on DeRozan.

    But yes, DeRozan shot 50% in April from 3 but all his 3's came in last 3 games of the season (9/12, 75%).

    Gay was more impressive with 50% in April as well on 4.2 attempts per game (38 total attempts).
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The Raptors played 9 games in April and went 7 for 9.
    When we speak of the AprilFoolGoldRun I think we can only really count the games where the teams were resting their players for the playoffs. The first 4 games of April were against Detroit, Washington, Minnesota and Milwaukee. The final five games were against playoff teams who rested their best players for most of the games. Thats when the Raptors won five games in a row and DD and Gay tore shit up. I don't really count those first four games. They were regular games against non playoff teams.

  11. #51
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    When we speak of the AprilFoolGoldRun I think we can only really count the games where the teams were resting their players for the playoffs. The first 4 games of April were against Detroit, Washington, Minnesota and Milwaukee. The final five games were against playoff teams who rested their best players for most of the games. Thats when the Raptors won five games in a row and DD and Gay tore shit up. I don't really count those first four games. They were regular games against non playoff teams.
    I think of the 9 games in the month of April.

    More than happy to share and disagree on the meaning though.

    In the season you play good teams and bad teams. During those 9 games, Raps did as well.

    7/9 translates to a 63/64 win season that is why I think of it as #AprilFoolsGoldRun.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Default An answer? I'll need some help.

    I posted earlier about it being a confusing time to be a raptor fan not having a clue where we are going (tank or tinker). Tanking isn't the panacea it seems. Let's throw away getting the number one pick. You can't plan for that. Top 5? Maybe. Top ten? A bit more likely. So lets say we fast forward a year after doing our best tank. We get the third pick. We take a 7 footer with awesome potential to be an offensive threat and a game changer defensively (ie JV). Then what do we do? We have a terrible team (had to be terrible to get that good a pick) to surround a guy with potential. You're still so far away and could be in the Charlotte cycle.

    But what about doing both? Is there a way we can tank this year, purely by getting rid of anyone you wouldn't want on the team in 2-3 years and then have reasonanble cap room in 2014-15? That's where I need help. Not sure of the numbers.
    We do our best with the young guys we have. If it gets us a good draft pick, great. If not, we use the cap space to get someone who can complement the guys we have. Over simplistic yes, but is it possible? What if we go forward with Bledsoe (merging threads here), Ross, Gay, Amir and Jv? Ab gone. Lk gone. AA gone. Lf...probably here. Acy here. I have a feeling still having Gay around blocks the idea of cap space in 14/15 but if anyone has an idea, let me know. Thanks for hanging in on a long post.

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Got my answer. If a trade goes down (Bledsoe/derozan) you could assume that at worst, their salaries would match. That would give us a starting five of Bledsoe/Ross/Gay/Amir/JV. A bench of Fields/Acy. All for about $50 million. Almost half of that is Rudy Gay's player option. You would have to add some cheap bench options. That seems like a good group to let grow for the next year. They might struggle (good draft pick) or they may not (more likely to attract somebody with a little cap room). I have probably missed some cap implications but there you go. Now we just have to do that trade. Your move Masai.

  14. #54
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    I posted earlier about it being a confusing time to be a raptor fan not having a clue where we are going (tank or tinker). Tanking isn't the panacea it seems. Let's throw away getting the number one pick. You can't plan for that. Top 5? Maybe. Top ten? A bit more likely. So lets say we fast forward a year after doing our best tank. We get the third pick. We take a 7 footer with awesome potential to be an offensive threat and a game changer defensively (ie JV). Then what do we do? We have a terrible team (had to be terrible to get that good a pick) to surround a guy with potential. You're still so far away and could be in the Charlotte cycle.

    But what about doing both? Is there a way we can tank this year, purely by getting rid of anyone you wouldn't want on the team in 2-3 years and then have reasonanble cap room in 2014-15? That's where I need help. Not sure of the numbers.
    The answer here is "yes, it's possible." For all the talk about Boston tanking, they're trying to do it right now: Dallas says they want Rondo, and Boston says "okay: we want Dirk." They don't want Dirk because he's Dirk; they want Dirk because he's a massive expiring contract ($22 million) and he gets Rondo off the books for them. (The fact that Boston is doing this should be a massive, MASSIVE warning sign about Rondo, incidentally. When you're actively trying to move that all-star point guard? There are problems with him.) Boston would be happy to take any expiring contracts of equivalent size for Rondo, really; Dirk is just a bonus because he can teach Kelly Olynyk to be The New Dirk.

    If we want to keep players, the ONLY must-keep is Jonas. Everybody else has to be considered tradable - even Amir. (I love Amir, but he is your prototypical seventh-man-on-a-championship-squad player, a hustle roleplayer who gets starting minutes with us because we don't have a top-calibre starting power forward. There is a strong argument that we sell high on him.) I'm not saying trade everybody - but this core is simply too expensive going forward for what it is. Assuming that Lowry wants to resign for $8-10m (which seems likely), then in 2014-2015 you can essentially afford one of him, Rudy and DeMar - they're all overpaid (or in Lowry's case, possibly going to be) and they're all primary scoring options. Pick one of them, add Jonas and Landry (we can't trade Landry, so we might as well work with what we've got), maybe Ross and Acy (but they're both expendable if they make a really good deal happen). That's your core going forward. Of the three I'm most inclined to keep DeMar because I think he has the most upside and because he's the most loyal to Toronto, but honesty forces me to admit that Lowry probably ends up being the best overall value.

    When you trade the guys you want to trade, you focus on two things: making the money situation better (which is almost certainly going to happen because we can't do much worse) and getting good, young players. For example, the DeMar to Charlotte for Ben Gordon trade that got rumoured once or twice makes the money situation better because Gordon expires next year; if we get a young prospect in the bargain then it becomes not only something that improves the money situation but gives us flexibility to grow (because even if we don't want that prospect, rookie contracts are worth a lot in the NBA). We should definitely find a future second-rounder to offer Houston for Thomas Robinson since they want to ditch him.

    But when pro-tankers talk about tanking, we're talking about a dedicated, designed one-season tank: get the best we can from the 2014 draft and then focus on a proper accelerated rebuild. No Tyrus Thomases, unless we're going to use the stretch provision to waive him. (If MLSE was willing to do that, I would offer to take him off of Charlotte's hands for the Detroit protected pick.) No Michael Beasleys. No poison that affects us beyond the end of the 13-14 season.

  15. #55
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    But what about doing both? Is there a way we can tank this year, purely by getting rid of anyone you wouldn't want on the team in 2-3 years and then have reasonanble cap room in 2014-15? That's where I need help. Not sure of the numbers.
    We do our best with the young guys we have. If it gets us a good draft pick, great. If not, we use the cap space to get someone who can complement the guys we have. Over simplistic yes, but is it possible? What if we go forward with Bledsoe (merging threads here), Ross, Gay, Amir and Jv? Ab gone. Lk gone. AA gone. Lf...probably here. Acy here. I have a feeling still having Gay around blocks the idea of cap space in 14/15 but if anyone has an idea, let me know. Thanks for hanging in on a long post.
    This plan makes sense to me. Considering the next draft is a good one, tanking would be worth it. Even if Raps. go down as low as 6 or 7, they'll most probably end up with a very good player. While in the process, cap space(as much as possible) can be created and draft picks accumulated. Considering the depth in talent(2014), one year of tanking is sufficient.

    Unfortunately though, you and I don't make the decision. I hope I'm totally wrong but the way things are going, it seems like they're building on what's there. Too many signs point in that direction.
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  16. #56
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think of the 9 games in the month of April.

    More than happy to share and disagree on the meaning though.

    In the season you play good teams and bad teams. During those 9 games, Raps did as well.

    7/9 translates to a 63/64 win season that is why I think of it as #AprilFoolsGoldRun.
    Yeah but when we say "Fools gold" are we not referring to the fact that during that final stretch of games the better teams are resting their star players therefor making it easier for the other teams to win?

    The first four games of the month were all against losing teams who gave their top players their regular minutes.

    The final five games were against playoff teams, thats where we struck gold, getting to play against second units for five games in a row.

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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    More specifically, this is what I would do:

    1. Rudy Gay to Golden State for Richard Jefferson, Andris Biedrins, Harrison Barnes and Golden State's 2014 first-rounder. (If GS won't trade Barnes, Draymond Green will serve, but aim for Barnes.)

    2. Kyle Lowry to Dallas for Dallas' 2014 first-rounder. Or Atlanta. Either/or. Dallas is more likely to buy in, though.

    3. Terrence Ross to the Lakers for L.A.'s 2014 first-rounder.

    4. Kleiza and Bargnani for whatever we can get, or amnesty them. If Bargs puts in a good showing at Eurobasket we might even be able to get something good for him, although a 2014 pick is probably a pipe dream. But maybe we can get a rook who later on can BECOME a 2014 pick.

    5. Spend the season working on developing your core: Jonas, Amir, DeMar, Acy, Landry (who probably can't be traded, so make the most of it - he's not a bad player). Don't be afraid to lose, but don't lose for the sake of losing. Lose because we're developing offensive and defensive strategies for our core.
    What happens if you don't get a stud in next years' draft?

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    Quote C-Low wrote: View Post
    This guys gonna prove to be right after this year. These threads infuriate me sometimes. Cuz it's all speculation. I get it everyone would LOOOOOOVE for us to tank and get lucky and get wiggins, or smart or parker. But guess what that's not how the lottery always works. Look at the fucking bobcats. They shoulda won 3xs and ended up with MKG , Zeller and Biyombo. Chicago swoops in 1 year and gets Rose.. Its a crap shoot. Realistically would you guys not want to make the playoffs for a few years? thenmaybe rebuild .. right now is that time. Masai got sandbagged .. so what do u expect him to do something that's completely unrealistic, a huge gamble, and send us into mediocrity for the next 5-10 years AGAIN!!? Or at least try and build a winning culture here in Toronto. It's been said and will be said again. Toronto's market doesn't suck, our team does. LAC's market didn't suck .. the team did. They got lucky got Blake, and now what. Ya you're thinking well "thats what were saying tank get wiggins and move forward". Unlikely. At this point we need to work on winning. If Masai does pull some magic and acquires some serious lottery picks for players on our team then yes power too him. But you guys are talking about GS' first rounder, Lakers first rounder and Dallas' These aren't going to be lottery picks.

    How bout we wait till free agency happens, chips start to move, and then start discussing realistic avenues, instead of this BS lets tank AGAIN ( been there done that too many times as a raptors fan).

    I'm sorry but am I the only fan who just wants meaningful basketball in Toronto? Sure we won't be contenders, but lets win some games for once, watch basketball in March, and not be saying "CANT WAIT TILL THAT LOTTERY" .."Oh fuck we lost the coin flip.." "We coulda had curry" "We coulda had Barnes" .. "YAY WE GOT ED DAVIS"

    Let's just try and win when the rest of our competition is trying to win the lottery ( Watch boston not even land a top 5 pick)

    Washington / Cleveland and Detroit aren't tanking .. no why cuz at some point you gotta give your city something to cheer about.
    Good post. You echo how I feel too.

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