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Thread: Where do we go, Sweet Child? Where do we go?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I've been having conversation with @RaptorsMR since draft night. Interesting perspectives because he is not politically correct in his replies and he actually is part of organization. Obviously has no input in basketball decisions but I would think/hope he has more insight than any of us:





































    MONEY SHOT:







    https://twitter.com/tradeBargnani/st...91974964269058
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    RaptorsMR @RaptorsMR

    @tradeBargnani Doug's column had note only two 1st rd picks since '85 won title w/ team that drafted them. For me, tanking doesn't work.
    Off the top of my Head Tim Duncan, Darko, Joe Dumars, Tony parker that's already 4, that conveniently cuts off 84, to add Hakkeem & Jordan, Kobe Bryant was drafted by Charlotte for the Lakers, the pick was traded the day before and if it wasn't for Jordan, you'd have a lot more, when the same team wins 6 out of 8 titles, doesn't leave much of a chance for others, but many of the title contenders drafted their star player, Indiana, Utah, New york, Seattle. And i know very little of nba before 92 i'm sure there's more.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Addition to conversation which totally destroyed and dashed my hopes:





    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Starter Sam17's Avatar
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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    Off the top of my Head Tim Duncan, Darko, Joe Dumars, Tony parker that's already 4, that conveniently cuts off 84, to add Hakkeem & Jordan, Kobe Bryant was drafted by Charlotte for the Lakers, the pick was traded the day before and if it wasn't for Jordan, you'd have a lot more, when the same team wins 6 out of 8 titles, doesn't leave much of a chance for others, but many of the title contenders drafted their star player, Indiana, Utah, New york, Seattle. And i know very little of nba before 92 i'm sure there's more.
    I think he meant first overall picks

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    Quote Sam17 wrote: View Post
    I think he meant first overall picks
    Well then in that case i dont see the value of that argument, if Micheal Jordan and Lebron James couldn't win by themselves, no one can and no one will ever.

    The argument for building through the draft is collecting players with youth and talent for the long haul. to build a team, no one is advocating that Anthony Davis, Kyrie or Wiggins will win you a title, but having them on the same team might.

    Now that i think of it, Every title team since the 80's drafted their leader except for the 3 shaq titles and the 04 detroit title. and didnt have to be #1.(until the Big 3 of course)
    Last edited by Dino4life; Sat Jun 29th, 2013 at 12:14 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Why does everyone get so upset thinking about just being good enough to make the playoffs next year? Saying "The goal is CHAMPIONSHIPS" well folk, I understand your excited, this is the first time our management has made championships a goal but like anything else, we must crawl before we walk, and walk before we run. It's a process, TL and MU were never planning on making it to the finals next year.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    Why does everyone get so upset thinking about just being good enough to make the playoffs next year? Saying "The goal is CHAMPIONSHIPS" well folk, I understand your excited, this is the first time our management has made championships a goal but like anything else, we must crawl before we walk, and walk before we run. It's a process, TL and MU were never planning on making it to the finals next year.
    Its not that playoffs are a bad thing, its when you look beyond that. I was convinced we would make the playoffs next year as soon as the rudy gay trade happened, we could have kept Colangelo for that. The problem is the lack of flexibility beyond that, which means we will be back in the lottery really soon. Lowry becomes more expensive after next season, Derozan Becomes more expensive, Gay becomes more expensive if he sucks, might walk if he's good (player Option), we dont have a winning reputation to convince someone to accept 5 mil a year, when he's worth more. as talented as some of our players are, because of their contracts their trade value is diminished because we are going into year 3 of the new CBA, so teams wont accept bad contracts in trades unless it comes with a 1st rounder. So basically the only way to move forward without blowing up the team is hoping we find someone better than one of our starters with the 15th-18th pick in the next 2 years.

    Because of that i was all for the boozer trade after the rudy gay trade (which i was against), we had to either go all in like the nets or blow it up like philly, this is why making the playoffs next year is not good enough. If you compare with washington, Detroit, Cleveland, for them making the playoffs is completly acceptable because all their best players are on rookie contracts, ours make at least three times as much but we end up with a similar record as them.
    Last edited by Dino4life; Sat Jun 29th, 2013 at 12:55 PM.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    Its not that playoffs are a bad thing, its when you look beyond that. I was convinced we would make the playoffs next year as soon as the rudy gay trade happened, we could have kept Colangelo for that. The problem is the lack of flexibility beyond that, which means we will be back in the lottery really soon. Lowry becomes more expensive after next season, Derozan Becomes more expensive, Gay becomes more expensive if he sucks, might walk if he's good (player Option), we dont have a winning reputation to convince someone to accept 5 mil a year, when he's worth more. as talented as some of our players are, because of their contracts their trade value is diminished because we are going into year 3 of the new CBA, so teams wont accept bad contracts in trades unless it comes with a 1st rounder. So basically the only way to move forward without blowing up the team is hoping we find someone better than one of our starters with the 15th-18th pick in the next 2 years.

    Because of that i was all for the boozer trade after the rudy gay trade (which i was against), we had to either go all in like the nets or blow it up like philly, this is why making the playoffs next year is not good enough. If you compare with washington, Detroit, Cleveland, for them making the playoffs is completly acceptable because all their best players are on rookie contracts, ours make at least three times as much but we end up with a similar record as them.
    So win the championship next year or blow it up? Only one of those options is possible and it does not guarantee success. Besides, we've never been in a worse position to blow-things up. First we would have to get rid of all our horrible contracts and expect Dwayne Casey and whatever players we keep on our roster to lose as much as possible which doesn't work because players love to win. Teams will never actually try to lose games, they aren't paid for that.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    After the 4-19 start to the season the Raptors were a .500 team. And that was with one of the worst bench line-ups in the entire NBA. With all these others teams going into tank mode it might make sense for the Toronto to use that as leverage to get even more wins.

    It's not easy trying to get guys to sign with our squad when we haven't even made the playoffs for five straight season. Maybe if we made it into the playoffs, one a few games, and showed signs of actual life it might make people more aware, seeing that the team is actually serious.

    I just don't think it's smart to go the exact same rout as 1/3 of the other teams in the league.

    And also, Detroit, Cleveland or Washington; none of them are going to make the playoffs next year.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    After the 4-19 start to the season the Raptors were a .500 team. And that was with one of the worst bench line-ups in the entire NBA. With all these others teams going into tank mode it might make sense for the Toronto to use that as leverage to get even more wins.

    It's not easy trying to get guys to sign with our squad when we haven't even made the playoffs for five straight season. Maybe if we made it into the playoffs, one a few games, and showed signs of actual life it might make people more aware, seeing that the team is actually serious.

    I just don't think it's smart to go the exact same rout as 1/3 of the other teams in the league.

    And also, Detroit, Cleveland or Washington; none of them are going to make the playoffs next year.
    And they were a 10-17 team after Gay trade and before #AprilFoolsGoldRun

    These teams may not make it to the playoffs but they all have just as much of a shot as Toronto.

    Detroit: They have a tonne of cap space and Andre Igoudala is a guy they have their sights on. They have two beasts up front.

    Cleveland: A tonne of cap space, returning Varejuo, lots of young/improving talent.

    Washington: 4-28 to start season minus Wall. Finished year .500 at 25-25.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    yeah i think people underestimate how shitty this team is
    @jerboat

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  13. #32
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    yeah i think people underestimate how shitty this team is
    I think people undersestimate how diifficult it will be to become unshitty. Thanks BC.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    I have my doubts that Iggy will sign with Detroit. Why would he? He's 29 years old and Detroit isn't going to be spectacular any time soon.

    Washington wasn't even good enough to nab any of that April Fools Gold at the end of the season, they lost their final 6 games.

    And Cleveland, I imagine, being such a young team and next year being such a strong draft they are going to lose a few more games this years in order to add one final addition of youth and talent to their squad. And I simply don't think they're as good if the raptors had a better bench-unit.

  16. #34
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    yeah i think people underestimate how shitty this team is
    The belief is the Raps are fine because:

    1) DD will do something no one has done in nearly 70 years of NBA basketball: become significantly better after playing 9000 minutes in the league, and

    2) JV will dominate and become elite very soon.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  17. #35
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    Why does everyone get so upset thinking about just being good enough to make the playoffs next year? Saying "The goal is CHAMPIONSHIPS" well folk, I understand your excited, this is the first time our management has made championships a goal but like anything else, we must crawl before we walk, and walk before we run. It's a process, TL and MU were never planning on making it to the finals next year.
    This guys gonna prove to be right after this year. These threads infuriate me sometimes. Cuz it's all speculation. I get it everyone would LOOOOOOVE for us to tank and get lucky and get wiggins, or smart or parker. But guess what that's not how the lottery always works. Look at the fucking bobcats. They shoulda won 3xs and ended up with MKG , Zeller and Biyombo. Chicago swoops in 1 year and gets Rose.. Its a crap shoot. Realistically would you guys not want to make the playoffs for a few years? thenmaybe rebuild .. right now is that time. Masai got sandbagged .. so what do u expect him to do something that's completely unrealistic, a huge gamble, and send us into mediocrity for the next 5-10 years AGAIN!!? Or at least try and build a winning culture here in Toronto. It's been said and will be said again. Toronto's market doesn't suck, our team does. LAC's market didn't suck .. the team did. They got lucky got Blake, and now what. Ya you're thinking well "thats what were saying tank get wiggins and move forward". Unlikely. At this point we need to work on winning. If Masai does pull some magic and acquires some serious lottery picks for players on our team then yes power too him. But you guys are talking about GS' first rounder, Lakers first rounder and Dallas' These aren't going to be lottery picks.

    How bout we wait till free agency happens, chips start to move, and then start discussing realistic avenues, instead of this BS lets tank AGAIN ( been there done that too many times as a raptors fan).

    I'm sorry but am I the only fan who just wants meaningful basketball in Toronto? Sure we won't be contenders, but lets win some games for once, watch basketball in March, and not be saying "CANT WAIT TILL THAT LOTTERY" .."Oh fuck we lost the coin flip.." "We coulda had curry" "We coulda had Barnes" .. "YAY WE GOT ED DAVIS"

    Let's just try and win when the rest of our competition is trying to win the lottery ( Watch boston not even land a top 5 pick)

    Washington / Cleveland and Detroit aren't tanking .. no why cuz at some point you gotta give your city something to cheer about.

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  19. #36
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    yeah i think people underestimate how shitty this team is
    People also overestimate how shitty this team is. You guys talk like we're the fucking Charlotte Bobcats. Lol talking like Detroit and Washington light years ahead of us on the road to championships.

  20. #37
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    You guys sound like Bargnani "we're pretty much the worst team in the NBA".

  21. #38
    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    So win the championship next year or blow it up? Only one of those options is possible and it does not guarantee success. Besides, we've never been in a worse position to blow-things up. First we would have to get rid of all our horrible contracts and expect Dwayne Casey and whatever players we keep on our roster to lose as much as possible which doesn't work because players love to win. Teams will never actually try to lose games, they aren't paid for that.
    I haven't advertised blow it up since the rudy gay trade, i've been of the opinion to just let it ride out next year, when Fields Bargs Gay, all become expiring contracts, and we'd know exactly which of our players would have backed up their promise of improvements. The point was where we are right now the only way to improve is to bank on a 5 million dollar player, and 17th pick. The contracts are just growing every year, plus Lowry is due a big pay raise,

    Its not that blowing up garantees success, its that Masai like i read somewhere is playing Poker without any chips, the only tradable players are our best players with bad contracts, so whatever trade we make is most likely a standstill.

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  23. #39
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    Why does everyone get so upset thinking about just being good enough to make the playoffs next year?
    Because being good enough to make the playoffs - and that is an "if" because they are by no means guaranteed at this point despite what people think - in a year where much of the competition is dedicated to a tank is not a predicator of future success. You might as well put an asterisk on it.

    Nobody is silly enough to expect that a championship run is possible next year: this team as built cannot beat Indiana in a playoff series, much less Miami, San Antonio, Golden State or OKC. Because we're not a very good team. Honestly, people think Detroit and Washington and Cleveland aren't going to be competition? Washington demonstrated last year that they're at least as good a team as we are already, and they just added Otto "90 percent of Rudy Gay at 15 percent of the salary" Porter and Glen Rice Jr. (who will add some pop to their bench). Cleveland was only slightly worse than us and they just added Anthony Bennet and Sergey Karasev, who are both NBA-ready, and they're going to have 20 million in cash to chase veterans to make their team even better. if Detroit lands Andrew Iguodala - and they're going to offer him a LOT of money - then their starting five of Iggy, Greg Monroe, Andre Drummon, Brandon Knight and Kentavious Caldwell-Pope is definitely better than ours.

    Hell, it looks like even Milwaukee and Atlanta aren't tanking. How is it going to feel if we don't make playoffs?

    This is why I want the Raptors to start building, right now, towards a championship team, and right now we have exactly one player who can't be traded for something better (Jonas). Everybody else is expendable. In the NBA, teams have three modes that help them succeed: win-now, tank, and build.

    We aren't a win-now team because we're capped out with terrible contracts and MLSE isn't going to go the Brooklyn/Laker super-luxury-tax route. We can't acquire more pieces. (Bear in mind that, thankfully, we can't trade our pick next year and we've traded away so many other picks that we have nothing to bribe teams with as Brooklyn did.)

    We're not a building team because we have nothing to build with and hoping for incremental improvements from our younger players (and Lowry and Rudy aren't "younger players" any more: they are what they are now) is the NBA equivalent of playing roulette.

    That leaves tanking. Or there's always the fourth choice of "do fuck-all," which has always been inexplicably popular with the Raptors.

  24. #40
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    I have my doubts that Iggy will sign with Detroit. Why would he? He's 29 years old and Detroit isn't going to be spectacular any time soon.

    Washington wasn't even good enough to nab any of that April Fools Gold at the end of the season, they lost their final 6 games.

    And Cleveland, I imagine, being such a young team and next year being such a strong draft they are going to lose a few more games this years in order to add one final addition of youth and talent to their squad. And I simply don't think they're as good if the raptors had a better bench-unit.
    Why would he? $$$$$

    So that means Washington went 25-19 before losing their final 6 games? Shit. Maybe they will definitely make playoffs afterall. Any argument hinging on DD scoring 26ppg on 60%fg and 64%3pt and Gay scoring 22ppg on 49%fg and 54%3pt is the definition of #AprilFoolsGoldRun

    Lets see what Cleveland does with their $18M in cap space first and remember they have a very hands on owner who is tired of losing.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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