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Thread: Question for people against tanking

  1. #1
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    Default Question for people against tanking

    Everyone knows the point of our franchise, or any franchise, is to win multiple championships. So why are you guys willing to take our team how it is currently built, add a Rondo, or add another borderline star, to forego the opportunity to draft a superstar next year (there's more than just Wiggins).

    Obviously it isn't guaranteed we get a top 5 pick, but at the moment, Toronto isn't built to contend for a championship. Nor are we just a couple pieces from getting into even the ECF. Toronto isn't a hot free agent destination either, not until we prove that we aren't a team stuck in limbo (check Atlanta Hawks), or not until we get a superstar (which is kind of ironic considering none will come). We also do not have the assets to trade for a superstar.

    Rudy Gay isn't the future of the franchise, he's the best player we had since Bosh, which isn't saying much. The truth is he's overpriced and takes far too many shots. I'd rather have a roster that will tank WHILE developing our rookies/younger players. Sure there are 10 other teams that are trying to tank for Wiggins, but even a top 5 pick is satisfactory enough, with Wiggins being the added bonus if we land with the #1 pick.

    To all those that say that a top 5 pick isn't guaranteed, well I can guarantee that if we miss the opportunity to even get a top 5 pick, and make the playoffs this year (or worse, end up 9th/10th), we won't be able to contend for a longtime with our roster and commitments.

    So why are some of you willing to just make it into the first/second round of the playoffs the next couple years, and be done after that?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Winning culture attracts Free Agents. We didnt win a championship with Vince, but he vaulted our Reputation to heights they've never been simply by making the 2nd round. Most franchises have never won a championship, but if we want to be RELEVANT, staying at the bottom of the league is ridiculous. Anyways, we dont have the pieces to tank correctly (like Boston or Philly), and so would be out-tanked compared to the rest of the teams. What we have to do is take advantage of everyone else tanking, get relevant for a season or two, build a winning culture, and attract Free agents + draft correctly. Some of the best teams in the league have never needed to tank and have stayed relevant for decades.
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Winning culture attracts Free Agents. We didnt win a championship with Vince, but he vaulted our Reputation to heights they've never been simply by making the 2nd round. Most franchises have never won a championship, but if we want to be RELEVANT, staying at the bottom of the league is ridiculous. Anyways, we dont have the pieces to tank correctly (like Boston or Philly), and so would be out-tanked compared to the rest of the teams. What we have to do is take advantage of everyone else tanking, get relevant for a season or two, build a winning culture, and attract Free agents + draft correctly. Some of the best teams in the league have never needed to tank and have stayed relevant for decades.
    Who did Vince attract? Hakeem..? lol. Bosh didn't bring in anyone either. Although I agree that it is a valid point to create a winning culture, for our organization I disagree with the method, in the short run.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Quote dpww wrote: View Post
    Who did Vince attract? Hakeem..? lol. Bosh didn't bring in anyone either. Although I agree that it is a valid point to create a winning culture, for our organization I disagree with the method, in the short run.
    I am thinking more of how Kevin Durant idolized Vince, how this crop of Canadian players can be attributed to his influence. And how the Raptors became a welcoming + winning brand before we started losing with Babcock. I am just showing how important it is to build a reputation in order to have people respect the Raptors and with that, to eventually sign with the raptors.
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    I would point out that to get guaranteed top 5 pick the Raptors need to finish 2nd worst in the league.

    Nothing is guaranteed in the lottery - or through any form of building for that matter - but the guarantees are much less in the lottery.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I would point out that to get guaranteed top 5 pick the Raptors need to finish 2nd worst in the league.

    Nothing is guaranteed in the lottery - or through any form of building for that matter - but the guarantees are much less in the lottery.
    Good point Matt. Also, do you really think the NBA is going to let a PRIZED PLAYER or as some are calling him, "Frozen Lebron" guessing because he is from Canada, lol come to Canada? Look where having one of the worst losing records in NBA get Charlotte. Or many other teams for that matter.

    I for one as a fan, am tired of always losing. If we never get experience in the playoffs, how are we to build a winning culture here? Even if we get knocked out in the first round, that is an experience in itself. And not to mention, guaranteed exposure.
    We have been trying to rebuild forever and where did it get us?

    What people are not realizing is in sports there are always super teams that wins Championships and occasionally, the underdog wins. in every sport, in the last 10 - 15 years the same group of teams seem t o win at some point and the others are always outside looking in. If you build a team that is always making the playoffs, even just sneaking in, you never know what can happen. Players get hurt, players get luck or hot and why can't that be the Raps?

    BUT, if we don't even go to the party, how are you going to dance with that special girl?

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    Rather than go into tank mode I would prefer if the raptors acquire another teams 2014 pick (Suns, Cavs, Cats, Pistons or Wolves)

    Suns were rumoured to want Gay before we got him
    Detroit could use Gay (and we could get Singler + 2014 or Gay/Klieza for Villinueva/stuckey + KCP + 2014 --- which would free up room for pistons to sign igoudala and take gay)
    Cats could really use DeMar (we could take ben gordon and multiple picks)
    Cavs have publicly stated they want an SF and want to make the playoffs ... they have a few good assets but 2014 pick would be the target
    Wolves - kirilenko isn't renewing his option so the SF could be filled by Gay

    (other possible trade partners could be Kings and Bucks - but not sure what their needs are exactly or what direction they are going)


    *quick question: Is there any website that shows which teams own another teams 2014 picks?

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    I'm all for getting playoff experience, but why not wait one more year? You only get a draft like next year's once a decade

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    Raptor fans are fed up with many years of watching crappy basketball. That's why. In all but a few cases, tanking has proven to be an inefficient strategy to winning championships.

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    Quote connected wrote: View Post
    Rather than go into tank mode I would prefer if the raptors acquire another teams 2014 pick (Suns, Cavs, Cats, Pistons or Wolves)

    Suns were rumoured to want Gay before we got him
    Detroit could use Gay (and we could get Singler + 2014 or Gay/Klieza for Villinueva/stuckey + KCP + 2014 --- which would free up room for pistons to sign igoudala and take gay)
    Cats could really use DeMar (we could take ben gordon and multiple picks)
    Cavs have publicly stated they want an SF and want to make the playoffs ... they have a few good assets but 2014 pick would be the target
    Wolves - kirilenko isn't renewing his option so the SF could be filled by Gay

    (other possible trade partners could be Kings and Bucks - but not sure what their needs are exactly or what direction they are going)


    *quick question: Is there any website that shows which teams own another teams 2014 picks?
    I would be 100% all over that. In fact, that is the method I was hoping the Raptors went (rebuild and compete consecutively by taking on other teams awful contracts for picks in exchange for Raptors players. Except, there are problems:

    It is quite obvious teams are holding 2014 picks in very high regard and are not easy to come by.

    Suns also have new coach and new GM - do they still have interest?

    Detroit's pick is going to Charlotte with top 8 protection in 2014, top 1 protection 2015, unprotected 2016.

    Cavs condition for trading this year's #1 was a young veteran and a 2014 pick.

    Wolves with Gay, Love, Rubio, Pekovic are likely to be a playoff team.

    Kings 2014 pick top 12 protected to Cleveland.

    Bucks are indeed an unknown.

    *answer to your quick question: http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/dra...rafts/detailed *
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    Quote connected wrote: View Post
    Rather than go into tank mode I would prefer if the raptors acquire another teams 2014 pick (Suns, Cavs, Cats, Pistons or Wolves)

    Suns were rumoured to want Gay before we got him
    Detroit could use Gay (and we could get Singler + 2014 or Gay/Klieza for Villinueva/stuckey + KCP + 2014 --- which would free up room for pistons to sign igoudala and take gay)
    Cats could really use DeMar (we could take ben gordon and multiple picks)
    Cavs have publicly stated they want an SF and want to make the playoffs ... they have a few good assets but 2014 pick would be the target
    Wolves - kirilenko isn't renewing his option so the SF could be filled by Gay

    (other possible trade partners could be Kings and Bucks - but not sure what their needs are exactly or what direction they are going)


    *quick question: Is there any website that shows which teams own another teams 2014 picks?
    I hate to break it to you, but no one is trading Rudy Gay for pretty much anything given his contract .. and the last thing they will do is give up a 2014 lottery pick for him. Many teams have already started tanking for the 2014 draft .. its no secret its going to be loaded. If you want to get someone's lottery pick next year .. start thinking about giving up some real assets .. the only think I can think of straight up that the Raps have that might get them a lottery pick in 2014 is JV. Do you want to do that deal?

    Ive said many times on this site that I would trade JV for Wiggins in a heartbeat (obviously its a theoretical debate since you cant actually do it) - but JV for a chance to get in the lottery? No thanks ..

    Edit: you might be able to hook a team with DD (if you threw in TR) .. but RG no way in hell
    Last edited by mountio; Sat Jun 29th, 2013 at 03:03 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Charlotte Bobcats 1-10 Own; 11-30 to CHI; POR 13-30; DET 9-30

    Are the Bobcats seriously looking at 3 lottery picks for next year ? we better put in the jokes now, because the future looks very bright for them too.

    In a year, i'm sure Washington, Cleveland, Detroit and Charlotte, is gonna explain to the raptor fans who dont get why building through the draft is the best way long term.

    And like someone said enough with 2014 its too late now, the hype has already increased the value of those picks too much.
    I would be happy as hell if Aaron Gordon stayed in School, and Jabari Parker has said he's not planning on being a one and done, plus i think he's sick of andrew wiggins already (we know his father is at least), so Collect 2015 draft picks, dont forget Marcus Smart had a chance to go top 3 and didn't care for it. Stock pile 2015 now, Buy Low

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    With next years draft so loaded, not making into the top-5 for picks isn't a terrible thing. With a pick somewhere in the teens we could easily still come out with a great young player.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Well we got Derozan with #9, Ed Davis with #13, T-Ross at #8. We dont need to be in top 5 to find core talent.

    I think we are one established big, and a good young supporting cast away from rounding off this roster. Id put my cards in for Hawes as a FA in 2014, and a high teens pick in 2014 for a good young talent, aswell as our MLE signing this offseason:

    Lowry/(MLE)
    Derozan/Ross/Fields
    Gay/2014 pick/Acy
    Hawes/Amir/Acy
    Val/Amir

    I think this is a strong enough team to compete in 2015, and it could be very deep depending on Fields and Acy.
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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    Are the Bobcats seriously looking at 3 lottery picks for next year ? we better put in the jokes now, because the future looks very bright for them too.
    In fairness, the Bobcats will probably end up drafting Darko Milicic, Air Bud and a broomstick with LeBron James' picture taped to it.

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    Name one team that has won a championship through "tanking".

  20. #17
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Name one team that has won a championship through "tanking".
    Its Free Agents and smart drafting that can be thanked for the last decade of championships!
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Name one team that has won a championship through "tanking".
    San Antonio: But I'm sure Robinson injured for a year does not meet the criteria of the quotation marks.

    Boston: Tanked to get Oden then after getting pick #5, traded to get their Big 3 core. Again, probably doesn't meet the criteria of the quotation marks.
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Name one team that has won a championship through "tanking".
    The San Antonio Spurs tanked like mad for Tim Duncan. They knew the 1996 season was gone the moment David Robinson went down and rather than try to salvage it, they smartly over-rested their other injured players to give themselves the best chance at the lottery. It worked.

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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    ...With a pick somewhere in the teens we could easily still come out with a great young player.
    And it's not worth tanking for a "great young player." Having said that, who would you be willing to give up for "...a great young player." Or rather, who would another team be willing to take in exchange for "...a great young player." given the desperation with which teams are seeking picks in 2014, you would have to gut the Raps.

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