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Thread: Question for people against tanking

  1. #41
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    You can't get win a championship just by tanking. Tanking gives you your core, and you build from there. Good teams build on their core and turn it into victories; great teams win the Championship. ............
    ..........And even then, luck plays a factor (look how close the Spurs just came in this past finals; that series literally came down to a handful of very difficult shots). .......................
    ........Let's go through some of the list you just dismissed because they didn't win the Championship:

    Dwight: three times to the first round of the playoffs, once to the second round of the playoffs, one Conference finals, one NBA Finals appearance
    LeBron: three times to the second round, one Conference finals, one NBA Finals
    Pau: Not exactly a "franchise guy" - Pau's a great second banana - but still, four playoff runs
    KG: seven straight first-rounders and one Conference finals (Minnesota is a great example of a team that got talent and didn't know what to do with it)

    Let's compare those to Toronto's two All-Star draftees. Vince got us to two first-round appearances and a second-round appearance before he bailed on us; Bosh got us two first-round appearances after Carter left. Now, neither Vince nor Bosh is really a Franchise Guy on the level of Kobe or LeBron, but they're respectable. The problem there was a combination of player unhappiness and a front office that was completely and utterly hapless (quite comparable to Minnesota's reign with KG).
    1st bold: you seem to be long on cliches, but a tad short on logic/reason. So get you one a dem franchise guys and build around him like the smart championship guys do, hey. As was pointed out by everyone's favourite reporter. Doug Smith, and repeated often here, only 2,,,,,,,,, yes, only 2 #1 picks over the last 28 years have won a chip with the team that drafted them, both with 1 team, the Spurs. To extrapolate a little from that, only 4 championships over 28 years were won by teams that retained their #1 pick.

    2nd bold: No idea what your point is in regard to the conversation.

    3rd bold: I didn't dismiss anybody. You missed the point the point? I was responding to what I quoted from a post, which had been CAPITALIZED BOLDED TO ME: ...."FRANCHISE PLAYERS DONT GET TRADED, THEY GET DRAFTED, THAT'S WHY YOU CALL THEM FRANCHISE PLAYERS."
    As forceful the attempt was to make that point, my examples weren't about dismissing players, but pointing out that MANY, if not MOST of what people would call "franchise players", do in fact get traded,,,,,,,,, or in today's world, leave via free agency instead, and many of them win championships,, but NOT with the team that "tanked" to draft them. Cliches may be fun to throw around to sound smart, but perhaps one should evaluate their validity when inventing ones

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  3. #42
    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    "FRANCHISE PLAYERS DONT GET TRADED, THEY GET DRAFTED, THAT'S WHY YOU CALL THEM FRANCHISE PLAYERS."

    Thanks for the inaccurate cliche, but in over 50 years of the NBA, how many teams won through tanking?

    That aside, I don't know what criteria you use for "franchise player" (can you tell me?), but for some examples:

    Kobe- drafted 13th by one team, obtained through trade
    Dwight- drafted 1st, won nothing in 8 years, traded
    Lebron- drafted 1st, won nothing in 7 years, then left drafting team through free agency
    Pau Gasol, drafted 3rd, won nothing in 6 years, traded
    KG- drafted 5th, won nothing in 12 years, traded
    Dirk- drafted 9th, traded to team he became "franchise player" for
    Chris Paul- drafted 4th, after 6 years of winning nothing, traded
    James Harden- traded
    Shaq- drafted 1st, won nothing in 3 years, traded to LA, then traded to Miami

    going back further:
    Kareem- drafted 1st, after 6 years of winning nothing, traded
    Wilt- drafted 1st, traded 3 times
    Oscar Robertson- drafted 1st, after 10 years of winning nothing, traded and won a championship
    i dont understand what your trying to say ? 60 players a year get drafted, 1 title is won a year. So you're gonna start naming all the players who didn't win a title ?......

    2nd I still dont get what your saying, i've already listed the past title winners and pointed out that the best player on almost all of the teams were drafted by that same team, i'll go even further they were drafted in the lottery there's more than the #1 pick, and no one is saying tank for wiggins, we're saying stay in the lottery. Kobe was drafted by charlotte under instructions by the Lakers, the pick was traded the day before the draft.
    Last edited by Dino4life; Sun Jun 30th, 2013 at 01:07 AM.

  4. #43
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    My biggest complaint against tanking next season isn't so much about the validity of tanking as a legitmate strategy for long-term team building, but moreso about the amount of 'competition' in the tanking challenge.

    1. With so many teams blatantly tanking (and several others just being naturally pathetic), there's no guarantee that a tanking Raptors team will even finish in the bottom-5 of the standings (especially with so many bad teams in the East).

    2. Even if the Raptors do finish in the bottom-3 of the standings, there's no guarantee that they'd wind up getting a top-3 draft pick after the draft lottery.

    3. Even if the Raptors did wind up with a top-3 draft pick, there's no guarantee that the guy they draft will become the franchise player he's projected to become, or that he can make the Raptors team any better than they currently are (or could become via retooling VS rebuilding/tanking).

    4. Even if the Raptors did wind up with the #1 overall draft pick, there's no guarantee that they'd ever become a championship contending team with that player leading them. Since 1986, only 2 #1 overal picks have ever won the NBA championship with the team that drafted them - David Robinson & Tim Duncan; the stats don't support tanking.


    Tanking COULD be a highly successful strategy, but there are so many variables that are more dependent on luck (even if the Raptors were the only team tanking, which they won't be), to even consider it a 'strategy'. It's more of a 'hail mary', which is far more likely to blow-up in your face than yield successful results, be it short and/or long term.
    Its not talking about getting #1, its about getting talent, and i already said, 2014 sweepstake is gone already we missed out, we should amass draft picks for future drafts, great basketball players are not going extinct after next draft.

    Getting that Franchise guy gives your team a direction, a vision. instead of the randomly assembled talent we've been doing now for a while. And the explanation is clear. We went from Chris Bosh, To Andrea Bargnani to Demar Derozan to Rudy Gay to Jonas Valanciunas, we cant succeed because we change our back bone every single chance we got, we have no clue where we should had clay and where we should chizzle it.

  5. #44
    Raptors Republic Rookie Ion66's Avatar
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    The amount of talent we'd have to shed, to get bad enough to have a top 5 pick (hopefully) seems greater than the value of a top 5, or 10 pick to me. I would think that young players to develop, would come at a high price if they had any real upside, or teams wouldn't be willing to part with them. Loading a team with young, but average players, and 2-3 of our core guys gets us, say, the #3 pick. Now we have 2-3 of our existing players, a rookie of unknown upside and a pile of pointless fillers, whose only purpose is/was to fill out a tanking roster. This is better than what we have now...how? And we get to watch a full year of getting our asses whupped....a full year.....Competing for last place like it's for the championship, with a bunch of other teams who have exactly the same plan in mind? Why would I watch that?

  6. #45
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Name one team that has won a championship through "tanking".
    hey man name one championship team built with late lottery picks and terrible contracts

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  8. #46
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    the resistance to a proper tear down and rebuild is astounding to me as teams in similar situations that have done so successfully since bosh left have fucking lapped us.

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  10. #47
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    Quote Lefty wrote: View Post
    One, that's what more and more teams are doing. Boston, Philly, Charlotte, the Pistons, Bucks, Magic, Hawks, Suns, maybe the Kings all look like they will be incredibly crappy next year.
    The Pistons clearly don't intend to tank - they're making a serious play for Andre Iguodala, which is the opposite of a tank move. The Bucks are openly shopping for a quality SG to replace Monta Ellis and have all but declared they're going to offer Brandon Jennings a max deal; it doesn't look like they're tanking either, because if they were they'd just start Giannis Alphabethands at SG and give him burn. And Atlanta is too soon to call; they have a ton of cap space and the opportunity to buy free agents, So we're down to seven, and the Magic probably aren't going to tank purposefully - they're in the later stages of a rebuild and it doesn't make sense for them.

    The second problem is that when you tank, you trade your players for assets. Almost none of our players, aside for Lowry, who won't fetch much, and JV, who is basically untouchable, are valued. Why? Because they all suck, or they are overpaid, or both. Colangelo really screwed Ujiri over.
    You're forgetting the other option, which is "remove other teams' problems." See Dallas openly offering their #13 last week to anybody who was willing to take Shawn Marion's contract off their hands. There's going to be more of that, as contending teams do their best to strip out the parts they don't need or can't use. Dallas, Houston, Golden State, Washington, Utah, OKC, Chicago - even Sacramento, Charlotte and Phoenix all have players they really want to unload. Some of these players we might actively want (probably anybody Houston needs to ditch). Some of them we don't want, but are expiring deals, so at least we're freeing up cap space (Biedrins and Jefferson, John Salmons and Travis Outlaw). Some of them are on teams who are planning to contend and might send us a pick for taking their trash because it'll only be a late first-rounder anyway. Some of them are on teams who have good young players who aren't getting minutes and could feasibly be sent along.

    Like, this is feasible: Amir Johnson to OKC for Kendrick Perkins and some combination of Jeremy Lamb, Perry Jones III and OKC's first-rounder this year. Because OKC really, really wants Perkins gone - his contract is problematic, and he's lousy. Is it worth it to sign him on (and flip him as expiring salary in 2014-15) and get some good young players with high upside who aren't getting burn in OKC, or OKC's first rounder? Like I've said - I don't want to ditch Amir, but unless OKC does this sort of deal for Aaron Gray for some reason I can't understand, I think he makes the deal work.

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    I don't like tanking, mainly because if you DO end up being the worst team in the league, you only get a 25% chance at picking first.

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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    hey man name one championship team built with late lottery picks and terrible contracts
    Fallacy of Bifurcation (false dichotomy) -> "two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more."

    Obviously there are many other ways to win a championship, you have not regarded the original argument which asks, "which teams have one championships through tanking"
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Obviously there are many other ways to win a championship, you have not regarded the original argument which asks, "which teams have one championships through tanking"
    Your definition of tanking is attaining the #1 pick, our definition of tanking is getting a pick that has a high chance of leading to a franchise player, unless you're saying KD isn't a franchise players, or MJ, etc. So do not try to reply to this with the "only 2 players drafted #1 have won with their team blah blah, Tim Duncan, SA" which seems to be the default response by all of you...

    Also, it's about winning champions obviously, but instead of looking at teams that have won championships, you should look at how many teams are, or have, competed FOR A CHAMPIONSHIP (I laugh when people say the Raptors can compete.. for a playoff spot) via tanking? A lot of the teams who tanked for their next superstar franchise players (Whether they got him at #1 or not is irrelevant), had success and CHAMPIONSHIP goals within the next 5 years. NOT JUST PLAYOFF GOALS

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    The value of a 2014 1st rounder (projected lottery) is very high right now because of a loaded draft class & the new CBA that puts a premium on smart cap management. A lot of teams are gearing up for the 2014 Draft which makes it difficult to acquire one. As it stands right now, there is no combination on our team (outside of Valanciunas & our own 2014 pick) that can get a projected lottery pick.

    Philadelphia had to give up an all-star (Jrue Holiday -- still young) to acquire Noel & a 2014 pick (which could or could not be a lottery selection). We have no all-star, we are capped out, we are projected to compete for a playoff spot as it stands -- so our pick is middle of the road, we have few young assets in their rookie contract, etc. Basically, we are not in a position to compete for those 14 lottery selections next year because our assets are not very attractive + we don't have room to absorb contracts unless we ship out some of our players.

    We actually have no choice but to use our situation the smartest way possible, as it stands, to maximize our chances going forward. We finished close to a playoff spot last year & Boston/Philly has shown signs of taking a step back. Atlanta & Milwaukee's situations are very cloudy at the moment. We have a good chance of making the playoffs next year, but before you argue "fool's gold," I have some arguments ....

    (1) Imagine a playoff appearance next year. Without arguing the effect on fan base, etc. -- our roster would look a lot more attractive next summer (Rudy Gay 1 year left; Landry Fields 1 year left; Amir Johnson 1 year left; Andrea Bargnani 1 year left; Jonas Valanciunas 1 year of development; Terrence Ross 1 year of development (** No guarantees with Ross & JV -- there is a chance that they stink up their careers for whatever reason). Add in the fact that the possibility of having an all-star (as a result of the higher rankings), our assets are suddenly more attractive to other teams.

    (2) Regardless of calling the season fool's gold, you are now in a position to leverage your season's "success" in negotiations with other teams. For example, if we have an all-star in Gay (because he is our leading scorer who led us to our first playoff appearance in 6 years -- yay), we can perhaps be in a better position to acquire a lottery pick, a young asset, a future core piece, a better player, etc. should we decide that he can't take us any further than the 1st round. Our chances of landing a pick (even a 2014 lottery) is higher than whatever chances we have right now.

    What I'm saying is timing is everything & as of right now, our situation dictates that we go for the playoffs because it is the smarter thing to do than getting less for your assets right now coming off a disappointing season. The NBA is very trendy but it constantly changes. Having a smart management team is very important if your franchise wants any type of long-term success. I'm hoping for better asset management with our new staff & I am content not seeing massive changes at once. I simply don't want a repeat of our mistakes (like being content with our core long-term, handling cap space, etc. -- & we have a new set of people running the franchise (from owners to management). So I'm banking on that .... for now.
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  17. #52
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Fallacy of Bifurcation (false dichotomy) -> "two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more."

    Obviously there are many other ways to win a championship, you have not regarded the original argument which asks, "which teams have one championships through tanking"
    Actually there are only a handful of ways to win a title. Only Miami, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Celtics, Lakers, Bulls,and Detroit have won titles in my life time. A little further back you can include Sixers, Bucks, and Portland but that's reaching back to the 60s/70s for some of those when there wasn't at or close to 30 teams. Modern era there are only 8 teams who've won titles using 3 or 4 methods.

    1. Team built around a single star who matures.
    2. A team of talented but unheralded vets who wanted to win.
    3. Star players joining forces to get an elusive title.

    Notice how all those methods involve veteran players. One of those methods involves veteran players being together for a period of time before figuring out how to win together. Young teams usually fail. Bad GMs tear apart good young teams instead of letting them go through the maturing process. Good GMs do the opposite. Obviously free agency has an effect as well...

    When looking at trades that have led to titles we can look at Rodman, the Celtic trio, Chandler to the Mavs, etc. What do these all have in common? They're vets with known skill sets.

    In other words, if you want to create a championship team surround your core/star with consistent veterans that have quantitative skills. I suspect that every basketball league in the world works the same way. Unless a GM is planning things years into the future a tank is a destined failure. Quality players will leave before the talent picked up matures, or they will be traded during the process. And when they do mature, if they stick around they will be surrounded by young immature players who only know how to lose.

    This is why there is a chorus of us who hope Demar, and Amir stay. Those are the type of players that become vets who play meaningful minutes on championship teams. We probably agree that they're not stars, but hard work is a skill. And the only commonality between the 8 teams that have won titles since Bird/Magic did their thing and the Raptors is the drive that those 2 have. You can't coach effort.

  18. #53
    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    If people dont get it after this i'm done trying, because they will never be convinced, they are not open to be convinced.
    Tanking does not mean get #1 pick, it means stay in the lottery to have a chance at a better talent. The greatest of all time was drafted 3rd; #1 is just a number.

    Bill Russell NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Award

    2013 : Lebron James (Free agency) 1987: Magic Johnson(Drafted 1st)
    2012 :Lebron James (Free agency) 1986: Larry Bird(Drafted 6th)
    2011: Dirk Nowitzky (Drafted 9th) 1985: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar(Trade)
    2010:Kobe Bryant(Drafted 13th) 1984: Larry Bird (Drafted 6th)
    2009:Kobe Bryant(Drafted 13th) 1983: Moses Malone(Trade)
    2008: Paul Pierce (Drafted 10th) 1982: Magic Johnson((Drafted 1st)
    2007: Tony Parker (Drafted 28th) 1981: Cedric Maxwell(Drafted 12th)
    2006: Dwyane Wade(Drafted 5th) 1980: Magic Johnson(Drafted 1st)
    2005:Tim Duncan(Drafted 1st) from 1969 to 1979 every single winner was drafted by the title
    2004: Chauncey Billups (Free agency) team except Wilt in 1972(Trade), i just got tired of writing
    2003: Tim Duncan(Drafted 1st)
    2002: Shaquille O’Neal(Free agency)
    2001: Shaquille O’Neal(Free agency)
    2000: Shaquille O’Neal(Free agency)
    1999: Tim Duncan(Drafted 1st)
    1998: Michael Jordan(Drafted 3rd)
    1997: Michael Jordan(Drafted 3rd)
    1996: Michael Jordan(Drafted 3rd)
    1995: Hakeem Olajuwon(Drafted 1st)
    1994: Hakeem Olajuwon(Drafted 1st)
    1993: Michael Jordan(Drafted 3rd)
    1992:Michael Jordan(Drafted 3rd)
    1991: Michael Jordan(Drafted 3rd)
    1990: Isiah Thomas(Drafted 2nd)
    1989: Joe Dumars(Drafted 18th)
    1988: James Worthy(Drafted 1st)

    Trade: 3(all before 1985)
    Free Agency: 6
    Drafted by the title team: 36
    Drafted outside of Lottery 2, Drafted in Lottery 43


    Bottom Line you start in the Draft Lottery. The only question that remains is, Do we have a player of the caliber of those above already on the team or are we still looking ?

    I'll throw my cliche around again because i just backed it up. FRANCHISE PLAYERS GET DRAFTED THEY DONT GET TRADED.
    Last edited by Dino4life; Sun Jun 30th, 2013 at 06:33 AM.

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  20. #54
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    Huh? Lebron was drafted by the Cavs and was TRADED (I know it wasn't really a trade, but hear me out) to the Heat (where he won his 1st title). Kobe was TRADED to the Lakers for Vlade Divac, Chauncey was a Free agent, so was Shaq, pretty sure Dirk was a draft day trade too (His Wiki page says he was traded from the Bucks)... Those 80s players are all pre- modern CBA. Players barely had free agency, they were stuck where they were drafted. It wasn't until Stern came that there was even a lottery system...So in the 90's when players had rights, AND the pool was thinned from expansion the draft meant something but look at the 00's onwards. Trades, and free agency mean as much, if not more now.

    And why race to last place when you can turn players into wanted assets by winning?

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    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Huh? Lebron was drafted by the Cavs and was TRADED (I know it wasn't really a trade, but hear me out) to the Heat (where he won his 1st title). Kobe was TRADED to the Lakers for Vlade Divac, Chauncey was a Free agent, so was Shaq, pretty sure Dirk was a draft day trade too (His Wiki page says he was traded from the Bucks)... Those 80s players are all pre- modern CBA. Players barely had free agency, they were stuck where they were drafted. It wasn't until Stern came that there was even a lottery system...So in the 90's when players had rights, AND the pool was thinned from expansion the draft meant something but look at the 00's onwards. Trades, and free agency mean as much, if not more now.

    And why race to last place when you can turn players into wanted assets by winning?
    Lebron was not traded, he walked out in free agency, the sign & trade is CBA provision so teams dont get shafted when their players walk out, like Shaq Did to orlando. If the Cavs had a choice you think for 1 second they would have traded him ?

    Kobe was not traded, the pick was traded, and because in the NBA you cant trade before the new season, they had to pick him for the lakers, but the lakers chose him. Dirk was a draft trade that was targeted before the draft by the mavs.
    Chauncey was a free agent that's what i wrote.
    So no, Trade is not an option it hasn't happened since those 80's players you discredit.

    The only alternative is Free Agency and we all know how that works out in Toronto

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    Quote dpww wrote: View Post
    ...We are not as attractive as the LA's, NY's, even MIA's/HOU's/BOS' etc....
    But Toronto is a LOT more attractive than Atlanta

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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    ...What I'm saying is timing is everything & as of right now, our situation dictates that we go for the playoffs because it is the smarter thing to do than getting less for your assets right now coming off a disappointing season.
    What I have been trying to say in this and other threads, but said much better.

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    The clippers are a good example of how tanking can work. It gave them enough good young players to lure a superstar player. But obviously, tanking isn't the only way to get star talent

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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    The clippers are a good example of how tanking can work. It gave them enough good young players to lure a superstar player. But obviously, tanking isn't the only way to get star talent
    Not really a good example....They've been "tanking", as in totally sucking and making frequent lottery appearances, for about....well forever. Every decade or two they make the playoffs after the young "talent" they've drafted put together a couple of strong seasons.

    And now that they have a strong team, they did it by trading away good player, but none of them even close to great players, for Chris Paul. Gordon, Kaman and Aminu are hardly excellent players. The Raptors currently have comparable assets to get a deal done, so why tank? Gordon is nothing special. A volume scorer with a bad attitude, bad injury history, undersized, whiny prima donna. Kaman is even more allergic to help D than Bargnani. Aminu is a fringe rotation player who's basically just a defensive player. I would posit that we have the assets RIGHT NOW to go after a game changer if CP3 could be acquired with that motley crew and a 1st rd pick. Tanking is just going to make us bad for JV's development years, and if they screw up the drafting at all and the team stays bad, likely leads to JV's exit.

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    But Paul wanted to go to LA, that's why the trade happened. I'm not saying the Raptors need to tank, but the Clippers suckage allowed them to draft Griffin, who was a major factor in Chris Paul's decision. It's by no means a perfect recipe, but it is a certain route which many teams are deciding to take with the 2014 draft as stacked as it is. As for the Raps, I'll trust Ujiri knows what's best for the team

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