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    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Default 20/20 Vision on DeRozan's contract

    Hindsight. We finally get to use it. Right up until going on to lose a heartbreaker to the pacers on opening night, we all debated extension vs restricted free agency for DeMar. So, now that the money is starting be thrown around at restricted free agents and others, it's a chance to see where we may have been if Colangelo didn't hand out that contract (stop laughing...it could happen). Tyreke Evans getting offered $44 million plus. Comparable? Who else? I'm not asking if DD is worth the contract. That's been beaten elsewhere. Just what might we have been facing now if he wasn't extended?

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    We'd be facing the opportunity to let him walk instead of paying him too much for too little production.

    Not a bad thing in my opinion.

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    We'd be facing the opportunity to let him walk instead of paying him too much for too little production.

    Not a bad thing in my opinion.
    Or use him in S&T to acquire a younger/cheaper/better player and/or one who plays a position of need and/or who fits with the rest of the Raptors roster better than he does - such as Dallas looking to S&T Mayo to LAC for Bledsoe, or Milwaukee looking to S&T Reddick to LAC for Bledsoe.

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    He would be a rfa and as such we have the right to match what the market would determine. In a way DD's contract is setting the market for Evans. As well...who is the better talent Tyreke Evans or DD? And this team lost flexibility by committing already to DD when it was done. I suppose the main reason for BC for doing this was he saw him as a core member of the team going forward. I did not and it seems he is in play by MU...but possibly constrained because of the contract.

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    We'd be facing the opportunity to let him walk instead of paying him too much for too little production.

    Not a bad thing in my opinion.
    The "opportunity" to do something stupid. Gotcha!

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Or use him in S&T to acquire a younger/cheaper/better player and/or one who plays a position of need and/or who fits with the rest of the Raptors roster better than he does - such as Dallas looking to S&T Mayo to LAC for Bledsoe, or Milwaukee looking to S&T Reddick to LAC for Bledsoe.
    Could still be used the same way in a trade, only already signed with, based on Evans' deal, a far from out of line contract, but management gets to dictate where to trade him rather than restricted to his choices.

    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    He would be a rfa and as such we have the right to match what the market would determine. In a way DD's contract is setting the market for Evans. As well...who is the better talent Tyreke Evans or DD? And this team lost flexibility by committing already to DD when it was done. I suppose the main reason for BC for doing this was he saw him as a core member of the team going forward. I did not and it seems he is in play by MU...but possibly constrained because of the contract.
    " In a way DD's contract is setting the market for Evans."
    No

    "As well...who is the better talent Tyreke Evans or DD?"
    Some would call that debatable, but that's not the topic. Evans got an offer of $1.5M/yr more than DD (another report had $2.5M/yr more), but we'll not know if DD may have gotten equal or more. Not only different skillsets, but apparently very different personalities/characters, and some teams value the DDs of the world more. In any case, if you feel Tyreke is worth more, then you should be happy that he's getting more, right?

    "it seems he is in play by MU."

    Did I miss something? Where has MU put him in play? You're not talking the Bledsoe speculation are you? Because nothing about that story says anything of the kind.
    Last edited by p00ka; Mon Jul 1st, 2013 at 10:46 PM.

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    He would have been signed and traded.

    The Derozan deal and the Gay trade have puzzled me. Why did MLSE allow them to take place if they weren't sure about BC? They've put the team in a difficult position.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    " In a way DD's contract is setting the market for Evans."
    No

    "As well...who is the better talent Tyreke Evans or DD?"
    Some would call that debatable, but that's not the topic. Evans got an offer of $1.5M/yr (another report had $2.5M/yr), but we'll not know if DD may have gotten equal or more. Not only different skillsets, but apparently very different personalities/characters, and some teams value the DDs of the world more. In any case, if you feel Tyreke is worth more, then you should be happy that he's getting more, right?

    "it seems he is in play by MU."

    Did I miss something? Where has MU put him in play? You're not talking the Bledsoe speculation are you? Because nothing about that story says anything of the kind.
    First bold: You didnt say why not? They are both SGs and DD got signed before TE so TE's agent worked off of that number plus ancillary items like current demand for TE and possibly stats (have not checked into that). Besides TE fancies himself as a PG as well I believe.

    Second bold: Not going to quibble on this. Its what we do here...have opinions on players. The point was the early signing set a bar. And the more important one was it didnt need to be done. It has to do with the flexibility that was deprived the Raps not what TE ultimately is able to sign for. Due to many factors sometimes lesser players are able to sign larger contracts. eg. BC had enabled that quite liberally.

    Third bold: I offer the following as an eg./basis for that statement. Possibility exists u dont read all the gossip:

    "The Clippers, though, have been lukewarm on Toronto's pitches so far, sources say. The Raptors have been openly shopping out-of-favor forward Andrea Bargnani and have likewise pitched a trade scenario in which L.A. would receive both Bargnani and shooting guard DeMar DeRozan, but sources say that new Clippers coach Doc Rivers -- who was also named senior vice president of basketball operations -- continues to express interest in not only hanging onto Bledsoe but also keeping center DeAndre Jordan. ESPN.com"

    ....from the Hoopshype site

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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    First bold: You didnt say why not? They are both SGs and DD got signed before TE so TE's agent worked off of that number plus ancillary items like current demand for TE and possibly stats (have not checked into that). Besides TE fancies himself as a PG as well I believe.

    Second bold: Not going to quibble on this. Its what we do here...have opinions on players. The point was the early signing set a bar. And the more important one was it didnt need to be done. It has to do with the flexibility that was deprived the Raps not what TE ultimately is able to sign for. Due to many factors sometimes lesser players are able to sign larger contracts. eg. BC had enabled that quite liberally.

    Third bold: I offer the following as an eg./basis for that statement. Possibility exists u dont read all the gossip:

    "The Clippers, though, have been lukewarm on Toronto's pitches so far, sources say. The Raptors have been openly shopping out-of-favor forward Andrea Bargnani and have likewise pitched a trade scenario in which L.A. would receive both Bargnani and shooting guard DeMar DeRozan, but sources say that new Clippers coach Doc Rivers -- who was also named senior vice president of basketball operations -- continues to express interest in not only hanging onto Bledsoe but also keeping center DeAndre Jordan. ESPN.com"

    ....from the Hoopshype site
    1st & 2nd bold; I didn't explain because I think it's ridiculous to suggest one player's contract set the bar for another. The NBA isn't 30 mom & pop corner stores and negotiating contracts factors in many much more important factors than DDs contract.

    3rd bold: Oh, I read most of the gossip, but just don't waste time taking them as more than anonymous speculation to stoke the passions of naive fans that need a fix. Some turn out to be true, but many not. If you wish to play along with that game, be my guest, but I'm saying I don't think it's fair to MU or DD or the Raps to be spouting it as truth.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    1st & 2nd bold; I didn't explain because I think it's ridiculous to suggest one player's contract set the bar for another. The NBA isn't 30 mom & pop corner stores and negotiating contracts factors in many much more important factors than DDs contract.

    3rd bold: Oh, I read most of the gossip, but just don't waste time taking them as more than anonymous speculation to stoke the passions of naive fans that need a fix. Some turn out to be true, but many not. If you wish to play along with that game, be my guest, but I'm saying I don't think it's fair to MU or DD or the Raps to be spouting it as truth.
    So, you do not believe that agents use all manner of statistics, standards and yes other players in the similar category of playing position as comparative points to negotiate a favorable contract? You should read more about labour/salary negotiations. Or are you trying to make the case that DD is not a valid comparable to TE?

    On the second para: Are you sure you are not wasting your time tapping out condescending notes on a frivolous subject such as the misfortunes of the Raptors Basketball club and the skills or future prospects of Demar D.? Alas I am unlike you it seems restricted to sites like ESPN for my information. Even then I try to filter out the Stephen Smiths. You must have more pristine contacts.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Tyreke Evans is as comparable as it gets to Derozan. Same draft, same position, and same not quite living up to their potential. The fact that Evans got offered $12M per year over 4 years ($2.5M more per year than Derozan) makes it clear it was a good idea to lock up Derozan when we did. Even if you don't think he's a good fit for the team (I'm not terribly attached to him), we can now use him as a valuable trade asset. After what we got for Bargs imagine what we could get for Derozan (could probably return a 2014 lotto pick + decent player). If we waited until someone like New Orleans offered him 4 years $48M, we'd either get stuck not matching and get nothing or have to take on a particularly onerous contract. The DD signing looks very reasonable in hindsight. Dare I say it, it looks good.

    Something like this seems plausible to me:

    To Cleveland:
    Derozan

    To Toronto:
    Tristan Thompson
    Alonzo Gee
    Cavs Top 3 protected 2014 draft pick
    Last edited by Primer; Tue Jul 2nd, 2013 at 03:38 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Sam17's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Something like this seems plausible to me:

    To Cleveland:
    Derozan

    To Toronto:
    Tristan Thompson
    Alonzo Gee
    Cavs Top 3 protected 2014 draft pick
    I agree with you for the most part but the Cavs wouldn't give that up for DeRozan. His deal does look a lot better in hindsight, but he's not as valuable as you're giving him credit for.

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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Tyreke Evans is as comparable as it gets to Derozan. Same draft, same position, and same not quite living up to their potential. The fact that Evans got offered $12M per year over 4 years ($2.5M more per year than Derozan) makes it clear it was a good idea to lock up Derozan when we did. Even if you don't think he's a good fit for the team (I'm not terribly attached to him), we can now use him as a valuable trade asset. After what we got for Bargs imagine what we could get for Derozan (could probably return a 2014 lotto pick + decent player). If we waited until someone like New Orleans offered him 4 years $48M, we'd either get stuck not matching and get nothing or have to take on a particularly onerous contract. The DD signing looks very reasonable in hindsight. Dare I say it, it looks good.

    Something like this seems plausible to me:

    To Cleveland:
    Derozan

    To Toronto:
    Tristan Thompson
    Alonzo Gee
    Cavs Top 3 protected 2014 draft pick
    I agree with everything you're saying.

    But I doubt such a deal goes through. 2014 draft picks.....so hard to gauge their value. I have a hard time seeing Cleveland give one up.

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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Tyreke Evans is as comparable as it gets to Derozan. Same draft, same position, and same not quite living up to their potential. The fact that Evans got offered $12M per year over 4 years ($2.5M more per year than Derozan) makes it clear it was a good idea to lock up Derozan when we did. Even if you don't think he's a good fit for the team (I'm not terribly attached to him), we can now use him as a valuable trade asset. After what we got for Bargs imagine what we could get for Derozan (could probably return a 2014 lotto pick + decent player). If we waited until someone like New Orleans offered him 4 years $48M, we'd either get stuck not matching and get nothing or have to take on a particularly onerous contract. The DD signing looks very reasonable in hindsight. Dare I say it, it looks good.

    Something like this seems plausible to me:

    To Cleveland:
    Derozan

    To Toronto:
    Tristan Thompson
    Alonzo Gee
    Cavs Top 3 protected 2014 draft pick
    I also agree with you in that BC most likely made the right decision to lock up DD before he hit the market. I can't believe some posters on here are actually fine with letting a top 10 pick who we invested 3-4 years with WALK ....That blows my mind.

    If we are comfortable with a salary figure and we assess his value to us......Why shouldn't we sign him if he also agrees to that figure???? Why let crappy teams like NO, SAC, CHA, etc. (who are well below the salary cap) throw money at our players we developed?? It makes no sense to me....yet posters keep throwing it around these forums like its the smart thing to do...lol

    Demar Derozan has missed 5 games in his ENTIRE career. Isn't that worth something? He's an iron man for the Raptors. He's arguably the top 2 or 3 players on our team and he makes less than half of what Rudy Gay makes. He basically tied Rudy Gay for the team leader in points per game. He IS improving his passing, rebounding, and even his 3 point shot.

    Bargnani, Rudy Gay, Landry Fields and Kleiza are all VASTLY OVERPAID compared to what they bring. It makes (made in the case of Bargnani) sense to get rid of their contracts before touching DD. I hope MU sees the common sense in this approach.

    Personally i would deal Rudy to Cleveland for Verajao/Thompson/Gee and first rounder in 2014. DD is still very young (he's still 23) and can come into his prime when we're ready to compete for a championship.

    It just makes sense.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    There are character concerns and injury concerns with Evans that do not make it a clear bla k and white situation. From a basketball perspective I take Evans 10 times out of 10.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    There are character concerns and injury concerns with Evans that do not make it a clear bla k and white situation. From a basketball perspective I take Evans 10 times out of 10.
    Latest on Evans offer from the Pelicans is it can go as high as $50M over 4 years with incentives. Derozans deal is looking better by the day. There is a clearly a big demand for a young shooting guard in FA right now, and there is a very low supply. Derozan almost certainly would have gotten a bloated back loaded contract offer to make it difficult for us to match. BC messed up a lot of things but he really helped us dodge a bullet there. I'm sure he'll use it in his sales pitch for his next front office job.

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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Latest on Evans offer from the Pelicans is it can go as high as $50M over 4 years with incentives. Derozans deal is looking better by the day. There is a clearly a big demand for a young shooting guard in FA right now, and there is a very low supply. Derozan almost certainly would have gotten a bloated back loaded contract offer to make it difficult for us to match. BC messed up a lot of things but he really helped us dodge a bullet there. I'm sure he'll use it in his sales pitch for his next front office job.
    Bloated contracts (Poison Pill Provision) are only for restricted free agents who were 2nd rd picks (hence name Gilbert Arenas attached to it). There would have been no bloated contract in terms of balloon payments.

    I still don't get the comparison to DD though - as a basketball player. Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can play PG through SF. He rebounds. He creates. He gets steals (although his defense is likely on par with DeRozan at best). He is more efficient. He has made steady improvements in his three point shooting while giving a sample size large enough to draw a conclusion (2 per game over 4 seasons).

    I don't think BC dodged a bullet because DD and Evans are not in the same league as players (but character and injury history certainly help lower the spread).
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bloated contracts (Poison Pill Provision) are only for restricted free agents who were 2nd rd picks (hence name Gilbert Arenas attached to it). There would have been no bloated contract in terms of balloon payments.

    I still don't get the comparison to DD though - as a basketball player. Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can play PG through SF. He rebounds. He creates. He gets steals (although his defense is likely on par with DeRozan at best). He is more efficient. He has made steady improvements in his three point shooting while giving a sample size large enough to draw a conclusion (2 per game over 4 seasons).

    I don't think BC dodged a bullet because DD and Evans are not in the same league as players (but character and injury history certainly help lower the spread).
    I'm not surprised you wouldn't get the comparison between the two......even though they were picked in the same draft class. They're basically the same height. They play basically the same position (I do realize Tyreke used to play PG, but has been playing SG and SF).

    They are not in the same league MATT52?? Did Tyreke make your all-star team??

    Tyreke has regressed since his rookie year.....he shot 20.2 percent from 3-point range in 2011-2012...... WOW Matt52....he's a career 27.6 percent 3 point shooter.....Demar shot 28.3 percent last year after taking the most 3 pointers he's ever taken in a season......Tyreke scored 3ppg less than Demar.....grabbed .5 boards more a game and handed out 1 more assist per game...... not in the same league huh? You must be delusional.

    Move Tyreke from PG to SG/SF and he doesn't appear to be as dominant as you think. I guess its tougher to play against Kobe, Wade, Harden, Demar, Paul George, Lebron, Durant, (you get my point? - you know bigger players!!)

    Play Tyreke at SG/SF and he is in the exact same league! Lets not get crazy here MATT52. Tyreke had an awesome rookie year and has come back to earth (actually has regressed yearly). Demar on the other hand had a career year last year (after already signing that contract). Yet we cant compare because you say so......gotcha!

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I'm not surprised you wouldn't get the comparison between the two......even though they were picked in the same draft class. They're basically the same height. They play basically the same position (I do realize Tyreke used to play PG, but has been playing SG and SF).

    They are not in the same league MATT52?? Did Tyreke make your all-star team??

    Tyreke has regressed since his rookie year.....he shot 20.2 percent from 3-point range in 2011-2012...... WOW Matt52....he's a career 27.6 percent 3 point shooter.....Demar shot 28.3 percent last year after taking the most 3 pointers he's ever taken in a season......Tyreke scored 3ppg less than Demar.....grabbed .5 boards more a game and handed out 1 more assist per game...... not in the same league huh? You must be delusional.

    Move Tyreke from PG to SG/SF and he doesn't appear to be as dominant as you think. I guess its tougher to play against Kobe, Wade, Harden, Demar, Paul George, Lebron, Durant, (you get my point? - you know bigger players!!)

    Play Tyreke at SG/SF and he is in the exact same league! Lets not get crazy here MATT52. Tyreke had an awesome rookie year and has come back to earth (actually has regressed yearly). Demar on the other hand had a career year last year (after already signing that contract). Yet we cant compare because you say so......gotcha!
    Lets not get crazy indeed.

    You know Evan's much hyped rookie year?

    Last year he upped his WP48 by nearly 33% over his rookie year.

    In 997 LESS minutes last season, Evans produced 4.6 MORE wins than DeRozan (7.0 compared to 3.4).

    Never mind the efficiency stats.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bloated contracts (Poison Pill Provision) are only for restricted free agents who were 2nd rd picks (hence name Gilbert Arenas attached to it). There would have been no bloated contract in terms of balloon payments.

    I still don't get the comparison to DD though - as a basketball player. Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can play PG through SF. He rebounds. He creates. He gets steals (although his defense is likely on par with DeRozan at best). He is more efficient. He has made steady improvements in his three point shooting while giving a sample size large enough to draw a conclusion (2 per game over 4 seasons).

    I don't think BC dodged a bullet because DD and Evans are not in the same league as players (but character and injury history certainly help lower the spread).
    Normally we agree on here but you must massively overvalue Tyreke Evans. Not in the same league? Evans is marginally better than DeRozan on offense, is just as poor if not a worse defender, and gets to the lines less. If DD is worth $9.5M, Evans can't be worth much more than $10M. Definitely not the $12M+ per year he was offered by the Pelicans.

    Also, you're correct on the back loaded contract. Just remove that word from my sentence and it still holds true in my eyes:

    Derozan almost certainly would have gotten a bloated contract offer to make it difficult for us to match.

    DD would probably have gotten offered something along the same lines as Evans, maybe a bit less, say 4 years $44M. So we saved a good chunk of money and made Derozan a more desirable trade asset since he is on a reasonable deal. Teams overpay to pry away restricted free agents and despite the new CBA that's not going to change. The Pelicans offer to Evans is so onerous that I don't think Sacramento will be able to match, and they will be left with their dick in their hands. Instead of that, the Raptors have a very valuable asset locked up long term that we could turn into any number of draft picks or players who fit us better.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Normally we agree on here but you must massively overvalue Tyreke Evans. Not in the same league? Evans is marginally better than DeRozan on offense, is just as poor if not a worse defender, and gets to the lines less. If DD is worth $9.5M, Evans can't be worth much more than $10M. Definitely not the $12M+ per year he was offered by the Pelicans.

    Also, you're correct on the back loaded contract. Just remove that word from my sentence and it still holds true in my eyes:

    Derozan almost certainly would have gotten a bloated contract offer to make it difficult for us to match.

    DD would probably have gotten offered something along the same lines as Evans, maybe a bit less, say 4 years $44M. So we saved a good chunk of money and made Derozan a more desirable trade asset since he is on a reasonable deal. Teams overpay to pry away restricted free agents and despite the new CBA that's not going to change. The Pelicans offer to Evans is so onerous that I don't think Sacramento will be able to match, and they will be left with their dick in their hands. Instead of that, the Raptors have a very valuable asset locked up long term that we could turn into any number of draft picks or players who fit us better.
    Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can penetrate, create for himself/others, and is actually showing improvements in his 3pt shooting. His rebounding and assists are all above average. Per48mins he gets to the line 6.5 times compared to DD's 6.8.

    DD runs off screens to take long 2's.

    Both suck on D but Evans nearly doubles steals.


    If DD is so valuable, why did the Clippers just get Dudley and Redick COMBINED for just $1.5M more than DD is getting paid?

    Why is Martin making $2.5M a year less?

    Look at the numbers, watch some games, and take off the homer glasses:

    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/co..._ids[]=290
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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