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Thread: 20/20 Vision on DeRozan's contract

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Latest on Evans offer from the Pelicans is it can go as high as $50M over 4 years with incentives. Derozans deal is looking better by the day. There is a clearly a big demand for a young shooting guard in FA right now, and there is a very low supply. Derozan almost certainly would have gotten a bloated back loaded contract offer to make it difficult for us to match. BC messed up a lot of things but he really helped us dodge a bullet there. I'm sure he'll use it in his sales pitch for his next front office job.
    Bloated contracts (Poison Pill Provision) are only for restricted free agents who were 2nd rd picks (hence name Gilbert Arenas attached to it). There would have been no bloated contract in terms of balloon payments.

    I still don't get the comparison to DD though - as a basketball player. Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can play PG through SF. He rebounds. He creates. He gets steals (although his defense is likely on par with DeRozan at best). He is more efficient. He has made steady improvements in his three point shooting while giving a sample size large enough to draw a conclusion (2 per game over 4 seasons).

    I don't think BC dodged a bullet because DD and Evans are not in the same league as players (but character and injury history certainly help lower the spread).
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bloated contracts (Poison Pill Provision) are only for restricted free agents who were 2nd rd picks (hence name Gilbert Arenas attached to it). There would have been no bloated contract in terms of balloon payments.

    I still don't get the comparison to DD though - as a basketball player. Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can play PG through SF. He rebounds. He creates. He gets steals (although his defense is likely on par with DeRozan at best). He is more efficient. He has made steady improvements in his three point shooting while giving a sample size large enough to draw a conclusion (2 per game over 4 seasons).

    I don't think BC dodged a bullet because DD and Evans are not in the same league as players (but character and injury history certainly help lower the spread).
    I'm not surprised you wouldn't get the comparison between the two......even though they were picked in the same draft class. They're basically the same height. They play basically the same position (I do realize Tyreke used to play PG, but has been playing SG and SF).

    They are not in the same league MATT52?? Did Tyreke make your all-star team??

    Tyreke has regressed since his rookie year.....he shot 20.2 percent from 3-point range in 2011-2012...... WOW Matt52....he's a career 27.6 percent 3 point shooter.....Demar shot 28.3 percent last year after taking the most 3 pointers he's ever taken in a season......Tyreke scored 3ppg less than Demar.....grabbed .5 boards more a game and handed out 1 more assist per game...... not in the same league huh? You must be delusional.

    Move Tyreke from PG to SG/SF and he doesn't appear to be as dominant as you think. I guess its tougher to play against Kobe, Wade, Harden, Demar, Paul George, Lebron, Durant, (you get my point? - you know bigger players!!)

    Play Tyreke at SG/SF and he is in the exact same league! Lets not get crazy here MATT52. Tyreke had an awesome rookie year and has come back to earth (actually has regressed yearly). Demar on the other hand had a career year last year (after already signing that contract). Yet we cant compare because you say so......gotcha!

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bloated contracts (Poison Pill Provision) are only for restricted free agents who were 2nd rd picks (hence name Gilbert Arenas attached to it). There would have been no bloated contract in terms of balloon payments.

    I still don't get the comparison to DD though - as a basketball player. Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can play PG through SF. He rebounds. He creates. He gets steals (although his defense is likely on par with DeRozan at best). He is more efficient. He has made steady improvements in his three point shooting while giving a sample size large enough to draw a conclusion (2 per game over 4 seasons).

    I don't think BC dodged a bullet because DD and Evans are not in the same league as players (but character and injury history certainly help lower the spread).
    Normally we agree on here but you must massively overvalue Tyreke Evans. Not in the same league? Evans is marginally better than DeRozan on offense, is just as poor if not a worse defender, and gets to the lines less. If DD is worth $9.5M, Evans can't be worth much more than $10M. Definitely not the $12M+ per year he was offered by the Pelicans.

    Also, you're correct on the back loaded contract. Just remove that word from my sentence and it still holds true in my eyes:

    Derozan almost certainly would have gotten a bloated contract offer to make it difficult for us to match.

    DD would probably have gotten offered something along the same lines as Evans, maybe a bit less, say 4 years $44M. So we saved a good chunk of money and made Derozan a more desirable trade asset since he is on a reasonable deal. Teams overpay to pry away restricted free agents and despite the new CBA that's not going to change. The Pelicans offer to Evans is so onerous that I don't think Sacramento will be able to match, and they will be left with their dick in their hands. Instead of that, the Raptors have a very valuable asset locked up long term that we could turn into any number of draft picks or players who fit us better.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I'm not surprised you wouldn't get the comparison between the two......even though they were picked in the same draft class. They're basically the same height. They play basically the same position (I do realize Tyreke used to play PG, but has been playing SG and SF).

    They are not in the same league MATT52?? Did Tyreke make your all-star team??

    Tyreke has regressed since his rookie year.....he shot 20.2 percent from 3-point range in 2011-2012...... WOW Matt52....he's a career 27.6 percent 3 point shooter.....Demar shot 28.3 percent last year after taking the most 3 pointers he's ever taken in a season......Tyreke scored 3ppg less than Demar.....grabbed .5 boards more a game and handed out 1 more assist per game...... not in the same league huh? You must be delusional.

    Move Tyreke from PG to SG/SF and he doesn't appear to be as dominant as you think. I guess its tougher to play against Kobe, Wade, Harden, Demar, Paul George, Lebron, Durant, (you get my point? - you know bigger players!!)

    Play Tyreke at SG/SF and he is in the exact same league! Lets not get crazy here MATT52. Tyreke had an awesome rookie year and has come back to earth (actually has regressed yearly). Demar on the other hand had a career year last year (after already signing that contract). Yet we cant compare because you say so......gotcha!
    Lets not get crazy indeed.

    You know Evan's much hyped rookie year?

    Last year he upped his WP48 by nearly 33% over his rookie year.

    In 997 LESS minutes last season, Evans produced 4.6 MORE wins than DeRozan (7.0 compared to 3.4).

    Never mind the efficiency stats.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Normally we agree on here but you must massively overvalue Tyreke Evans. Not in the same league? Evans is marginally better than DeRozan on offense, is just as poor if not a worse defender, and gets to the lines less. If DD is worth $9.5M, Evans can't be worth much more than $10M. Definitely not the $12M+ per year he was offered by the Pelicans.

    Also, you're correct on the back loaded contract. Just remove that word from my sentence and it still holds true in my eyes:

    Derozan almost certainly would have gotten a bloated contract offer to make it difficult for us to match.

    DD would probably have gotten offered something along the same lines as Evans, maybe a bit less, say 4 years $44M. So we saved a good chunk of money and made Derozan a more desirable trade asset since he is on a reasonable deal. Teams overpay to pry away restricted free agents and despite the new CBA that's not going to change. The Pelicans offer to Evans is so onerous that I don't think Sacramento will be able to match, and they will be left with their dick in their hands. Instead of that, the Raptors have a very valuable asset locked up long term that we could turn into any number of draft picks or players who fit us better.
    Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can penetrate, create for himself/others, and is actually showing improvements in his 3pt shooting. His rebounding and assists are all above average. Per48mins he gets to the line 6.5 times compared to DD's 6.8.

    DD runs off screens to take long 2's.

    Both suck on D but Evans nearly doubles steals.


    If DD is so valuable, why did the Clippers just get Dudley and Redick COMBINED for just $1.5M more than DD is getting paid?

    Why is Martin making $2.5M a year less?

    Look at the numbers, watch some games, and take off the homer glasses:

    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/co..._ids[]=290
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Oh and just so we are clear:

    As much disdain as I have for DD's contract, it is equal for the one reportedly put forth by NO for Evans.


    This tweet nails it:


    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    lmfao,,,, when the man's on a mission................... *!^$#(&@^%#$(*^*

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    Raptors Republic Starter Primer's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can penetrate, create for himself/others, and is actually showing improvements in his 3pt shooting. His rebounding and assists are all above average. Per48mins he gets to the line 6.5 times compared to DD's 6.8.

    DD runs off screens to take long 2's.

    Both suck on D but Evans nearly doubles steals.


    If DD is so valuable, why did the Clippers just get Dudley and Redick COMBINED for just $1.5M more than DD is getting paid?

    Why is Martin making $2.5M a year less?

    Look at the numbers, watch some games, and take off the homer glasses:

    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/co..._ids[]=290
    Well, we're at one of those agree to disagree points. Just gonna have to see how this plays out. I'm guessing you'll be pleasantly shocked at the haul we get for Derozan if we deal him. I think Raptors hardcore fans have the lowest opinion of DD of anyone in the NBA. Around the league he isn't considered a no defense playing no offense having shit sandwich like you make him seem here. Keep in mind Derozan is only 23. I assure you he has more value than Kevin Martin (30 years old), JJ Reddick (29 years old), or Jared Dudley (27 years old), whom are all widely known to have reached their potential and most likely are in a decline.

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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Well, we're at one of those agree to disagree points. Just gonna have to see how this plays out. I'm guessing you'll be pleasantly shocked at the haul we get for Derozan if we deal him. I think Raptors hardcore fans have the lowest opinion of DD of anyone in the NBA. Around the league he isn't considered a no defense playing no offense having shit sandwich like you make him seem here. Keep in mind Derozan is only 23. I assure you he has more value than Kevin Martin (30 years old), JJ Reddick (29 years old), or Jared Dudley (27 years old), whom are all widely known to have reached their potential and most likely are in a decline.
    lol,,,,, DD won't even be as old as those guys are now when his contract is finished, but whose counting on numbers?

  11. #30
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Well, we're at one of those agree to disagree points. Just gonna have to see how this plays out. I'm guessing you'll be pleasantly shocked at the haul we get for Derozan if we deal him. I think Raptors hardcore fans have the lowest opinion of DD of anyone in the NBA. Around the league he isn't considered a no defense playing no offense having shit sandwich like you make him seem here. Keep in mind Derozan is only 23. I assure you he has more value than Kevin Martin (30 years old), JJ Reddick (29 years old), or Jared Dudley (27 years old), whom are all widely known to have reached their potential and most likely are in a decline.
    I don't make any evaluation of DD and comment towards another poster here personal.

    I have nothing against DD. The problem with DD is he is an average NBA player who is going to be paid 2x league average and 3-4x league median salary. He is easily replaceable.

    What I suggest you keep in mind is exactly what you typed. If DD is so great why didn't teams jump to take him? Of course that assumes you are wrong. You very well might be right in your assessment of his value like stated in the bold. However when looking at the contracts being given out to players who excel at his deficiencies, I can't help but disagree.

    DD might be just 23 but he has 9700 NBA minutes played with the majority being option 1 or 2. He is what he is.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't make any evaluation of DD and comment towards another poster here personal.

    I have nothing against DD. The problem with DD is he is an average NBA player who is going to be paid 2x league average and 3-4x league median salary. He is easily replaceable.

    What I suggest you keep in mind is exactly what you typed. If DD is so great why didn't teams jump to take him? Of course that assumes you are wrong. You very well might be right in your assessment of his value like stated in the bold. However when looking at the contracts being given out to players who excel at his deficiencies, I can't help but disagree.

    DD might be just 23 but he has 9700 NBA minutes played with the majority being option 1 or 2. He is what he is.
    To say any 23 year old "is what he is" is pretty damn short sighted. He's still 2 years out from his athletic peak (on average for most males). DD has made small but steady improvements every year, so you can't even argue he's plateaued.

    What exactly do you mean by this:
    If DD is so great why didn't teams jump to take him?

    Take him when? In the draft years ago? How do you take a player under long term contract with another team? He never made it to free agency so no teams had a chance to take him then. There are rumors of teams being interested right now. I just have no idea what you're talking about when you're saying teams had a chance to take him, but didn't jump at it.

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    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't make any evaluation of DD and comment towards another poster here personal.

    I have nothing against DD. The problem with DD is he is an average NBA player who is going to be paid 2x league average and 3-4x league median salary. He is easily replaceable.

    What I suggest you keep in mind is exactly what you typed. If DD is so great why didn't teams jump to take him? Of course that assumes you are wrong. You very well might be right in your assessment of his value like stated in the bold. However when looking at the contracts being given out to players who excel at his deficiencies, I can't help but disagree.

    DD might be just 23 but he has 9700 NBA minutes played with the majority being option 1 or 2. He is what he is.
    LOL Your on a roll.. Honestly, I can't wait for the season to start! You are going to look even dumber than you did when u were defending mr 13 games last year (only to turn on him when the season started). I'm guessing your going to be proven wrong AGAIN but your ego's sooooo big that it probably won't even phase you.

    Question for you....

    Do you have any PROOF that Masai actually wanted to trade DD?

    Do you honestly think that Demar isn't our best asset besides JV?

    You sir know less about basketball than i thought.....A player peaks that 23?? REALLY? hahaha. Good one Matt52.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    To say any 23 year old "is what he is" is pretty damn short sighted. He's still 2 years out from his athletic peak (on average for most males). DD has made small but steady improvements every year, so you can't even argue he's plateaued.

    What exactly do you mean by this:
    If DD is so great why didn't teams jump to take him?

    Take him when? In the draft years ago? How do you take a player under long term contract with another team? He never made it to free agency so no teams had a chance to take him then. There are rumors of teams being interested right now. I just have no idea what you're talking about when you're saying teams had a chance to take him, but didn't jump at it.
    You are right. Let me rephrase:

    Any player who has been option 1or2 for three years and has 9700 nba minutes under his belt is what he is. Find an example that does not include going from a role player to franchise cornerstone like joe Johnson.

    I should not have said why didn't teams jump to take him. I don't even know if he is available. I don't even know if MU wanted Bledsoe. I don't even know if the clippers rumours were to make ny up offer for Bargnani.

    All I know is that there is one SG getting a ridiculous offer while lots of relative value contracts being signed.... And DD is no value.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    LOL Your on a roll.. Honestly, I can't wait for the season to start! You are going to look even dumber than you did when u were defending mr 13 games last year (only to turn on him when the season started). I'm guessing your going to be proven wrong AGAIN but your ego's sooooo big that it probably won't even phase you.

    Question for you....

    Do you have any PROOF that Masai actually wanted to trade DD?

    Do you honestly think that Demar isn't our best asset besides JV?

    You sir know less about basketball than i thought.....A player peaks that 23?? REALLY? hahaha. Good one Matt52.
    An ego is something I do have, absolutely. However I also have the ability to admit fault and change as circumstances warrant.

    The ironic thing here is you are mocking me for doing EXACTLY what I did with Bargnani. Challenge: Any player who has been option 1or2 for three years and has 9700 nba minutes under his belt is what he is. Find an example that does not include going from a role player to franchise cornerstone like joe Johnson.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    An ego is something I do have, absolutely. However I also have the ability to admit fault and change as circumstances warrant.

    The ironic thing here is you are mocking me for doing EXACTLY what I did with Bargnani. Challenge: Any player who has been option 1or2 for three years and has 9700 nba minutes under his belt is what he is. Find an example that does not include going from a role player to franchise cornerstone like joe Johnson.
    i don't really have a horse in this race, but clyde drexler made a big leap after 9653 minutes, just shy of your criteria. PER jump of 4, ppg jump of 5. wasn't option 1 or 2 in first season but neither was demar. we're talking a higher level of jump with this HOFer here though, obviosuly

    ray allen popped immediately to mind which is how i came to clyde through BBref similarity scores, and almost qualifies, making the leap a season earlier but would be same age were demar to do it next year.

    gary payton also close too. made leap at same time, but wasn't first or second option in first two years obviously because he was young pg.

    i like demar well enough, think he's a little overpaid but not vastly so. i'm confused how the ppl gunning to trade him seem to be okay with gay though. he's insanely overpaid. is it because he is so overpaid that the return on DD would be better.

    if we're parting with one of them i pray it's rudy. i'm okay with both though and total rebuild.

  18. #36
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    i don't really have a horse in this race, but clyde drexler made a big leap after 9653 minutes, just shy of your criteria. PER jump of 4, ppg jump of 5. wasn't option 1 or 2 in first season but neither was demar. we're talking a higher level of jump with this HOFer here though, obviosuly

    ray allen popped immediately to mind which is how i came to clyde through BBref similarity scores, and almost qualifies, making the leap a season earlier but would be same age were demar to do it next year.

    gary payton also close too. made leap at same time, but wasn't first or second option in first two years obviously because he was young pg.

    i like demar well enough, think he's a little overpaid but not vastly so. i'm confused how the ppl gunning to trade him seem to be okay with gay though. he's insanely overpaid. is it because he is so overpaid that the return on DD would be better.

    if we're parting with one of them i pray it's rudy. i'm okay with both though and total rebuild.
    Drexler: made jump in areas you mentioned but look at his rebs, ast, stl, fg%... All consistent and stellar. DD Nowhere near that type of talent.

    Allen is another talent level, again. I don't see similarities. Allen was always proficient. Trade from Milwaukee and Glenn Robinson gave him opportunity at 27 to show what he could do as #1 option. Dd already had that opportunity.

    Payton is a pretty good example... Thanks.

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    I'm going to hold off on judging DeRozan's value until a fair chunk of this season has been played.

    I think a healthy Gay, Valanciunas and Lowry, Time, Training Camp, off season work, will lead to a large jump in DeRozan's effeciency. I am curious to see what offensive specialist Nick Nurse brings to the table. There are enough factors changing factors that unless a very good trade comes along, I would like to see if he can earn his benjamins.

    I would like to say though that by the trade deadline this year, it should be crystal clear what DeRozan is going to be.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Drexler: made jump in areas you mentioned but look at his rebs, ast, stl, fg%... All consistent and stellar. DD Nowhere near that type of talent.

    Allen is another talent level, again. I don't see similarities. Allen was always proficient. Trade from Milwaukee and Glenn Robinson gave him opportunity at 27 to show what he could do as #1 option. Dd already had that opportunity.

    Payton is a pretty good example... Thanks.
    That's interesting seeing that's his mentor. I wonder if Payton tells him he can still be a great player if he keeps working.

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    12:53
    Comment From Kevin
    Have the Raptors made Rudy Gay, DeMar DeRozan and Kyle Lowry all available?
    12:54

    Sam Amico: Not DeRozan, as far as I can tell, Kevin.
    12:56

    Sam Amico: Here's the thing, kids: You can land just about anyone but maybe five or six guys in this league. But making a trade is a very, very difficult process. That's why all the rumors are usually wrong. Teams need to change terms, etc., to actually make deals work at the last minute.
    12:56

    Sam Amico: But when you ask if Team X received calls about Player X, the answer is almost always yes.

    http://www.foxsportsohio.com/nba/cle...17&feedID=3725
    DD lovers rejoice!!!!!!!
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Whos Sam Aimco?

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