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Thread: Raptors To Use Amnesty Clause on Kleiza

  1. #21
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    but in my opinion if we can't get an asset this summer (before July 17 as that is when the amnesty period ends) he should be amnestied.
    This goes back to the retool vs rebuild debate. I think if we are blowing it up, starting him at PF this season has a number of benefits.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star tucas's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    IF he is finally healthy, Kleiza does have value. I know it can take a while for a player to return to form but I bet if he proves he is healthy someone will take him for something.

    IF we are tanking, playing Kleiza 20+ minutes and inflating his value is a great way to kill two birds with one stone
    And with what minutes do we showcase a healthy Kleiza? We have DD, Ross, Gay, Fields, and Novak all deserving of more minutes. If Kleiza starts the season in a raps uniform he will rot on the bench. His value now will likely be his value in february. He is NOT a trade asset. He IS however a tax liability. The most he will be worth is a 2nd round pick and the chances we get a fringe rotation player out of a 2nd rounder are slim to none. Dump his ass now and avoid paying any tax at all this season and avoid paying the repeaters penalty in the future.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote tucas wrote: View Post
    And with what minutes do we showcase a healthy Kleiza? We have DD, Ross, Gay, Fields, and Novak all deserving of more minutes. If Kleiza starts the season in a raps uniform he will rot on the bench. His value now will likely be his value in february. He is NOT a trade asset. He IS however a tax liability. The most he will be worth is a 2nd round pick and the chances we get a fringe rotation player out of a 2nd rounder are slim to none. Dump his ass now and avoid paying any tax at all this season and avoid paying the repeaters penalty in the future.
    But the only way you get a 2nd round pick is if you take on salary that goes beyond this upcoming season.

    Kleiza was one of my favourite players for a while but that knee injury killed his NBA career. It is super unfortunate as I think, if healthy, he would have very much earned every penny of that contract.

    Now? Amnesty him and move on. The Raptors get a lot more breathing room with exceptions and/or trades while Kleiza can go back to Europe where I am sure he can still have a meaningful impact as a PF.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #24
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    What's funny about the trade deadline is that there is a tonne of excitement, but nothing ever happens. Teams seem to be to scared to make moves during the season anymore.
    It's more to do with the fact that contending teams looking for additional pieces are very concerned about maintaining team chemistry. Big trades late in the season can fuck things up easily that way.

  5. #25
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The day of the last regular season game.
    Thanks Matt, that's what I thought. Even if the Raps have a team salary into luxury tax during the first half of the season, they could look to shed salary at the deadline, whether that's Kleiza and/or others.

    I think the entire discussion is a moot point right now though, as I doubt that MU is finished with roster moves. However, if Kleiza's contract is the only difference between Toronto being a luxury tax and non-luxury tax team, then I'd be willing to carry his contract up to the deadline in hopes of using him as a trade asset.

  6. #26
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    The most he will be worth is a 2nd round pick and the chances we get a fringe rotation player out of a 2nd rounder are slim to none.Dump his ass now and avoid paying any tax at all this season and avoid paying the repeaters penalty in the future.
    I would take a fringe rotation player over nothing.

    Give him 15 minutes at PF and 5 at SF. Again this would be a tanking scenario and we would be attempting to inflate value.

    All we need to do to avoid the repeater tax is not be in the tax next year.

    and finally who gives a shit if we pay tax. MLSE doesn't, and it's not like it comes out of our pockets.

  7. #27
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    worry about the tax is teachers pension plan thinking.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star tucas's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I would take a fringe rotation player over nothing.

    Give him 15 minutes at PF and 5 at SF. Again this would be a tanking scenario and we would be attempting to inflate value.

    All we need to do to avoid the repeater tax is not be in the tax next year.

    and finally who gives a shit if we pay tax. MLSE doesn't, and it's not like it comes out of our pockets.
    No. MLSE wouldnt mind paying the tax if we were becoming a better team. Why pay the tax just so you can keep LINAS KLEIZA and potentially get a pick for him at the deadline. Also they wouldnt be getting nothing by amnestying him. They keep 2 million dollars in their pockets saved from tax. 2 million dollars in your pocket> 2nd rounder

  9. #29
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote tucas wrote: View Post
    2 million dollars in your pocket> 2nd rounder
    If that is all we get, 2 million dollars in their pockets does nothing. Its MLSE profit. It doesn't increase the amount of cash we put into transactions in order to make them work. A second rounder means potential. If it doesn't effect our exceptions I would still rather get something than nothing.

  10. #30
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    Since MU was able to recover something of value for AB, I think he could wheel and deal out LK rather than Amnesty.

  11. #31
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    Amnestying Kleiza right now doesn't make sense because it doesn't get us below the cap by itself (we're still about a couple million over) so regardless of whether we amnesty him or not, we're stuck with the same set of cap exceptions for signing players. He is an expiring contract, and that will have value as a trade chip. We can amnesty him literally any time we have to, and we don't have to yet, so let's see if we can use his expiring contract to facilitate a trade.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Amnestying Kleiza right now doesn't make sense because it doesn't get us below the cap by itself (we're still about a couple million over) so regardless of whether we amnesty him or not, we're stuck with the same set of cap exceptions for signing players. He is an expiring contract, and that will have value as a trade chip. We can amnesty him literally any time we have to, and we don't have to yet, so let's see if we can use his expiring contract to facilitate a trade.
    The amnesty period ends 7 days after the NBA Moratorium (which should be July 10).. after July 17 teams cannot use their amnesty card this year, and will have to wait for July 1 2014 (and at that point Kleiza will be a FA).

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    IF he is finally healthy, Kleiza does have value. I know it can take a while for a player to return to form but I bet if he proves he is healthy someone will take him for something.

    IF we are tanking, playing Kleiza 20+ minutes and inflating his value is a great way to kill two birds with one stone
    Even if we're tanking, I wouldn't want Kleiza taking minutes away from Ross (for his development) and Fields (for his evaluation).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  14. #34
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Even if we're tanking, I wouldn't want Kleiza taking minutes away from Ross (for his development) and Fields (for his evaluation).
    that's why I suggest the PF spot

  15. #35
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    The amnesty period ends 7 days after the NBA Moratorium (which should be July 10).. after July 17 teams cannot use their amnesty card this year, and will have to wait for July 1 2014 (and at that point Kleiza will be a FA).
    Which means we have seventeen days to see if we can find a use for him. If we can't in that time then we have to decide if we want to amnesty him or simply hold on to him in the hopes we can find a little value for him.

    But as I said: amnestying Kleiza doesn't change our financial position especially, so the argument for amnestying him isn't that strong. It boils down to whether or not having him be the 15th man on the roster means he's taking up room we really want someone else to fill (a Summer League transplant, for example), and we could sign some rookie to a minimum contract regardless of where we are monetarily.

  16. #36
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    PF's w/ value as 'stretch' 4's these days are mighty $$.
    I have no idea who Masai could target, and of course, I would fall back to in-season Carl Landry talks, but those have all but disappeared since BC left, and Carl has been talking w/ Doc & Clips

    Speaking of which, Masai said that once he has his staff in place, he'd unveil his plans...
    I hope that happens soon as he has already started to make moves.

  17. #37
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    worry about the tax is teachers pension plan thinking.
    I'm not totally convinced of that. Look at it this way: Let's say the plan is to spend big and be a $80-$90 million dollar team, and our salaries for the following seasons are as follows:
    year - payroll - tax*
    2013-14 - $72 - $.5
    2014-15 - $80 - $14.5
    2015-16 - $86 - $28.75
    2016-17 - $86 - $43.75**
    2017-18 - $86 - $43.75

    *this is assuming the tax threshold stays at around $71, which it clearly won't. But I don't want to try to speculate what the threshold is going to be five years out.
    **repeater rate kicks in at 2016, because three of previous four years have been tax years.

    now, if they don't go into the tax this year:
    year - payroll - tax*
    2013-14 - $71 - $0
    2014-15 - $80 - $14.5
    2015-16 - $86 - $28.75
    2016-17 - $86 - $28.75
    2017-18 - $86 - $43.75**


    Basically, the more they plan on spending three years down the road, the more the decision to go into the luxury tax this year will hurt them. Ownership may be planning to pay whatever it takes to build a winner (we can hope!), but are they really willing to acquire role-players now that could end up costing them $16 million more in taxes down the road? Would you spend $16 million just to hang onto Kleiza as a trade asset? Like I say, I'm not convinced. I think you need to try to stay under the tax this year.

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Which means we have seventeen days to see if we can find a use for him. If we can't in that time then we have to decide if we want to amnesty him or simply hold on to him in the hopes we can find a little value for him.

    But as I said: amnestying Kleiza doesn't change our financial position especially, so the argument for amnestying him isn't that strong. It boils down to whether or not having him be the 15th man on the roster means he's taking up room we really want someone else to fill (a Summer League transplant, for example), and we could sign some rookie to a minimum contract regardless of where we are monetarily.
    That depends on what you think the Raptors are planning.

    There is actually a lot of sense to be made.

    By amnestying the Raptors can use both the MLE and the Bi-Annual exception.

    If you use the MLE you automatically have a hard cap of $74M (based on last year numbers, assumed to go up slightly).

    If you are making trades that take you over the apron ($74M) then you are limited to taking back at most 125% + 100k vs. 150% + 100k under the apron or up to $5M under $20M in outgoing salaries.

    With a team without a lot of flexibility, shedding Kleiza's contract via amnesty may in fact open up some wiggle room.

    The question is are the plans Ujiri has in place helped or hindered by amnestying Kleiza? Considering he is injured and a fringe rotational player at best, I would think helped unless his plans all hinge on the trade deadline.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  20. #39
    Raptors Republic Starter phez's Avatar
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    Amnestying him would help get us under last's year luxury line, but this year's might actually go up a lot so we might not have to, and save it for next year's FA/draft superclass.

  21. #40
    Raptors Republic All-Star RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I think for some teams he's worth 2nd round pick. Just some good marketing's needed.
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