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Thread: Bosh, Duncan, what's the diff?

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Bosh, Duncan, what's the diff?

    What do I have against Chris Bosh? Nothing, really. If I'm being honest, I regurgitated a few basketball truisms and dismissed Bosh out of hand. "You can't win with a jump-shooting power forward...he's not the best player on a good team...blahblahblah." But then I thought I'd actually try thinking about it, try to put Bosh in context and decide then if what I lazily thought was true.

    Firstly, is there a modern player with a game similar to CB4's? The closest I could come up with (other than David West. Zing!) is Tim Duncan. Big, true power forwards often miscast as centers. Good touch around the basket but can make a jump shot too. So I thought why not see how Bosh and Duncan stack up?
    If we discount the first two years of Bosh's career, he is on a very similar path to Tim Duncan
    There biggest change in either chart is Bosh in 2010. He finally gets up almost 10 shots per game inside 10 feet. Looking at Duncan's, chart we see that's a baseline for The Big Fundamental. Inside 10 feet, Bosh is more likely to get fouled (career high in free throws attempts!) and take higher percentage shots (career high true shooting percentage!) There's no way this is a coincidence. Bosh shaved nearly two outside jumpers a night off his total, his new total of 3 more along Timmy D's lines.
    Using the top nine rotation guys (by minutes played) of each team, we see the teams surrounding Bosh and young Duncan are nearly identical. One key, key difference: Duncan had one teammate (David Robinson) with a PER over 20 during each of those four years. Bosh had two teammates with PERs over 20: T.Jose Calderford in the same season, a year in which Ford played only 50 games while Jason Kapono and Andrea Bargnani played 80 each and put up PERs under 11.

    So CB4 and Time Duncan aren't that different, it's the team around them. If teams built around Duncan can multiple titles, why not a team built around Bosh? They should at least be able to make a deep run in the playoffs.
    Sun Times

    He makes some really good points. What do you think? Is Bosh approaching Tim Duncan's prime level of play? Can Bosh be the focal point to a championship team?

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Jive's Avatar
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    Nice article, maybe bosh is on to something when he said he should be built around. More reason for him to stay in raptorland.

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    Prime TD blocked 3 shots per game and was an All-World defender. If Bosh had something near Dwight Howard's D this could be a fair comparison.

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    Raptors Republic Starter OzRapFan's Avatar
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    They are very similar in Offensive talent and demeanor, but defensively not even close, but I still think Bosh is someone you could build a championship winning team around.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Maybe Bosh's defense would look a lot better if he had the likes of David Robinson and Bruce Bowen helping out?

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    Raptors Republic Starter DarkKnight's Avatar
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    Strongly agree with you. To sum it up, the difference is that Tim Duncan is the greatest power forward of all time. But like you said, I do think Bosh is good enough to built a championship winning team around.

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    Tim Duncan used his height and length to become an intimidating defensive presence. Bosh still needs to develop that.

    Duncan also had a much more solid offensive post-game, as opposed to Bosh's face-up game. The problem with Bosh not having (much of) a post-game is that he's more easily shut down. Generally post moves are "bread and butter" and go in at a higher clip rate. You can't always rely on breaking your man off the dribble, and that's Bosh's major weakness against teams with smart post defenders.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Maybe Bosh's defense would look a lot better if he had the likes of David Robinson and Bruce Bowen helping out?

    Team defense might, though Robinson was not a top defender like Bowen at his peak. Boshes individual D would look about the same. Bosh is not going to look like a dominant post defender on any NBA team.
    Last edited by NewRapCity; Tue Feb 16th, 2010 at 09:04 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Quote NewRapCity wrote: View Post
    a top defender like Bowen at his peak. .
    There's a difference between playing good D and playing dirty.

    Guess which side Bowen's on?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    Quote NewRapCity wrote: View Post
    Team defense might, though Robinson was not a top defender like Bowen at his peak. Boshes individual D would look about the same. Bosh is not going to look like a dominant post defender on any NBA team.
    Robinson was always an excellent defender, had a quadruple-double(with blocks) for cryin' out loud!
    Keep Calm & Chive On

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    Quote Mack North wrote: View Post
    Robinson was always an excellent defender, had a quadruple-double(with blocks) for cryin' out loud!
    Charley Rosen's take on Robinson:

    David Robinson
    This guy was a cream puff. He could come from the weak-side to block shots, but he couldn't guard his own man. He could rebound, but rarely in a crowd. He could score, but only on foul-line jumpers, or only if a defender bought a head fake after he drove his left hand into the middle. He couldn't pass or handle. He couldn't stand his ground in the paint. And, according to one of his ex-coaches, he never worked on his game in the off-season simply because he really didn't like playing basketball. Had he not played alongside of Tim Duncan, The Admiral would have been lost at sea.

    source

    Rosen can be harsh but he knows more about basketball than you and I together.

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    Raptors Republic Starter DarkKnight's Avatar
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    Quote prime wrote: View Post
    there's a difference between playing good d and playing dirty.

    Guess which side bowen's on?
    lol

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote NewRapCity wrote: View Post
    Charley Rosen's take on Robinson:

    David Robinson
    This guy was a cream puff. He could come from the weak-side to block shots, but he couldn't guard his own man. He could rebound, but rarely in a crowd. He could score, but only on foul-line jumpers, or only if a defender bought a head fake after he drove his left hand into the middle. He couldn't pass or handle. He couldn't stand his ground in the paint. And, according to one of his ex-coaches, he never worked on his game in the off-season simply because he really didn't like playing basketball. Had he not played alongside of Tim Duncan, The Admiral would have been lost at sea.

    source

    Rosen can be harsh but he knows more about basketball than you and I together.
    You're taking Charlie Rosen's opinion as fact? Charlie Rosen's brain is a cream puff.

    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    There's a difference between playing good D and playing dirty.

    Guess which side Bowen's on?
    I'll take A or B, who's got the jewelry?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    Quote NewRapCity wrote: View Post
    Charley Rosen's take on Robinson:

    David Robinson
    This guy was a cream puff. He could come from the weak-side to block shots, but he couldn't guard his own man. He could rebound, but rarely in a crowd. He could score, but only on foul-line jumpers, or only if a defender bought a head fake after he drove his left hand into the middle. He couldn't pass or handle. He couldn't stand his ground in the paint. And, according to one of his ex-coaches, he never worked on his game in the off-season simply because he really didn't like playing basketball. Had he not played alongside of Tim Duncan, The Admiral would have been lost at sea.

    source

    Rosen can be harsh but he knows more about basketball than you and I together.
    I really don't give a flying fuck what Charlie Rosen says, I watched him play and he was great. Basically this guy is saying that without Duncan, Robinson would have been nothing?? LMAO, FYI:
    NBA All-Defense First Team - '91,'92,'95,'96
    NBA All-Defense Second Team - '90,'93,'94,'98
    NBA DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR - '92
    NBA MVP - '95

    Don't listen to Charlie Rosen anymore...
    Keep Calm & Chive On

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    I'll take A or B, who's published 15 books about basketball?

    Because there is a difference between publishing books and posting in a forum. You could try linking to a scouting report which shows Robinson was something more on D than a shotblocker.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    I'm not going to do all kinds of searching, but if you take a look at his stats you'll see that he was also a very good rebounder and he was a pretty good theif as well(91-92 especially). Take a look at his Per 36 mins, and playoff numbers. He wasn't just a shot blocker. He was a presence. If you show me anybody in the game today with his type of numbers, I guarantee you will think they are a good defender ie. Dwight Howard. You don't win Defensive MVP for being merely a shot blocker.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...robinda01.html
    Keep Calm & Chive On

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote NewRapCity wrote: View Post
    I'll take A or B, who's published 15 books about basketball?

    Because there is a difference between publishing books and posting in a forum. You could try linking to a scouting report which shows Robinson was something more on D than a shotblocker.
    I'll be damned, a Raptors fan defending Charlie Rosen?

    You think all writers have a strong handle on their topic? Rosen gets it wrong a lot in my opinion. I can think of many bad writers making a living. He gets it wrong a lot when it comes to the Raptors. Almost as though he doesn't watch the games.

    Quote Mack North wrote: View Post
    I'm not going to do all kinds of searching, but if you take a look at his stats you'll see that he was also a very good rebounder and he was a pretty good theif as well(91-92 especially). Take a look at his Per 36 mins, and playoff numbers. He wasn't just a shot blocker. He was a presence. If you show me anybody in the game today with his type of numbers, I guarantee you will think they are a good defender ie. Dwight Howard. You don't win Defensive MVP for being merely a shot blocker.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...robinda01.html
    I agree. The Admiral had admirable abilities on both sides of the court in my opinion.

    9) David Robinson - The Admiral was truly a force to be reckoned with on defense. He was a dominating presence in the post making it very difficult for opposing teams to scoring in the paint. He was great at all aspects of defense: rebounding, blocking, stealing, post defense, etc. You name it, Robinson could do it all. His great defensive efforts won him 8 All-NBA-Defensive Teams, a DPOY, and 2 NBA championships. He wasn't flashy or super athletic, but he commanded respect in the post, and lead his team on defense.
    CBS Sports - "NBA's Greatest Defenders in History"
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Feb 17th, 2010 at 02:19 PM.

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    Quote Mack North wrote: View Post
    You don't win Defensive MVP for being merely a shot blocker.
    Except that Marcus Camby did.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    25. David Robinson
    Basketball, like life, is funny. In both cases, one or two moments can come to define your existence. Take David Robinson, a guy who averaged 24 ppg, 12 rpg and 4 bpg as a rookie, and went for 30 and 11 a few years later. Ten-time All-Star. Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year, League MVP. Dream Teamer. And yet when I think of David Robinson, what do I think of? The guy Dream embarrassed in the Playoffs. The guy whose greatest contribution to his franchise was missing most of the ’96-97 season. But this is my problem, not his. For the first half of his career, David Robinson was all-world. For the second half, he was “only” a terrific, selfless role player with two rings to show for it. Nothing funny about that.—RJ
    SlamOnline.com - "The New Top 50"

  20. #20
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    · NBA Defensive Player of the Year in 1992
    · Won the NBA Rebounding Title in 1991, the NBA Blocked Shots Title in 1992 and the NBA Scoring Title in 1994 (he and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar are the only two players in NBA history to win each of the three titles)
    · Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team four times (1991, 1992, 1995 and 1996) and the All-Defensive Second Team four times (1990, 1993, 1994 and 1998)
    · Is the only player in NBA history to be named to both an All-NBA Team and an NBA All-Defensive Team in each of his first seven NBA seasons (since the NBA started the All-Defensive Team in 1968-69)
    NBA.com

    Charlie or the numerous awards? Charlie or the numerous awards? Tough choice.

    I'll let you make the call NewRapCity.
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Feb 17th, 2010 at 02:29 PM.

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