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Thread: Some more evidence that Colangelo was an incompetent idiot

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    Default Some more evidence that Colangelo was an incompetent idiot

    So, John Lucas was given a two year deal, with a team option on the second year. I didn't know this until I read that the Raptors declined to pick up his team option or I'd have been complaining about it sooner, but let me take a second to explain why basically nobody in the league gives out team options anymore, and why it's just a stupid thing to do.

    The rules with team options are as follows:

    - The choice of whether to exercise the option or not must be made before June 30th in the year preceding.
    - A player may not be traded between the end of the season and June 30th if he has the possibility of being a free agent that summer; thus, a player with an option year or an ETO (regardless of whether it's a player or team option) must have the option picked up before any trade can take place.

    Unguaranteed contracts are much, much better for the team, and have no disadvantage for the player:

    - The guarantee date can be set to whatever the parties can agree on. It can be June 30th, so it works just like a team option for the player, but much better for the team (see below). It can be sometime in the summer, to give the team a little time to look at free agency/trade options before having to make a decision, but still leaving the player time to sign with another team. It can even be during the following season, or come in stages.
    - A player with an unguaranteed contract has no restrictions on being traded. If a team wants to clear cap space, they can trade a player with a $5 mil guaranteed contract for a player with a $5 mil unguaranteed contract and immediately waive the unguaranteed player. This makes players with unguaranteed contracts a very valuable trade asset.

    So, in conclusion: there was absolutely no discernable reason to sign JL3 to a contract with a team option instead of just making the second year unguaranteed. It deprived the Raptors of a potentially valuable trade asset for absolutely no reason.

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    the player and his agent have a say in the contract, ya think?

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    A team option is always beneficial to the team and a player option to the player. GM's hand out team options so they are able to keep the player(if he's had a good year) instead of having to vie with other teams in free agency. A GM is more concerned about that than including his contract in the event of a trade.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    John Lucas was nowhere near a "potentially valuable trade asset".


    EDIT: whoops...
    Last edited by isaacthompson; Tue Jul 2nd, 2013 at 04:59 PM.
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    the player and his agent have a say in the contract, ya think?
    Good lord, did you even read? A team option and an unguaranteed contract with a guarantee date of June 30th are exactly the same from the player's perspective.

    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    John Lucas was nowhere near a "potentially valuable trade asset".
    Good lord, did you even read? It doesn't matter who the player is. It's the $1.3 million completely unguaranteed contract that is the asset, not the player.

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    Good lord, did you even read? A team option and an unguaranteed contract with a guarantee date of June 30th are exactly the same from the player's perspective.



    Good lord, did you even read? It doesn't matter who the player is. It's the $1.3 million completely unguaranteed contract that is the asset, not the player.
    Before you get too snarky with everybody who posts a response to your initial message, perhaps you should stop and give their feedback some thought.

    If I was a player, I'd much rather have a clean date when a team is forced to make a decision, thereby clarifying my future. I have no desire to mess around with some haphazard staggered nonguaranteed contract, since that means I might not become a free agent until most roster spots are already taken by players already free agents as of the standard July 1st date. I could care less what the team prefers, especially since it's my future we're talking about if they let me walk. I definitely think some players/agents would prefer contracts with traditional options that align well to league free agency processes.

    As for the comment about Lucas being a trade asset, evaulation is entirely subjective. Again, it goes back to the first point, regardless of which alternative might provide a team with a wider range of asset managmenet options.

    BC can only handout contracts that players/agents agree to sign, so it's a little unfair to blame him, especially for something as insignificant as a 30 year-old, 3rd string player's $1.5M option year.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Before you get too snarky with everybody who posts a response to your initial message, perhaps you should stop and give their feedback some thought.

    If I was a player, I'd much rather have a clean date when a team is forced to make a decision, thereby clarifying my future. I have no desire to mess around with some haphazard staggered nonguaranteed contract, since that means I might not become a free agent until most roster spots are already taken by players already free agents as of the standard July 1st date.
    Okay, there's some serious trouble with reading comprehension here. A non-guaranteed contract with a guarantee date of June 30th is, once again, exactly the same thing. In that case, June 30th is a "clean date when a team is forced to make a decision". The player knows, by midnight on June 30th, whether they will be paid for the next year. If they're waived after that, they still get the full amount of money. That's exactly the same thing that happens with a team option. In both cases, the player doesn't know until July 1 whether they have a contract for the next season, but they know with certainty on July 1, one way or the other.

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    Okay, there's some serious trouble with reading comprehension here. A non-guaranteed contract with a guarantee date of June 30th is, once again, exactly the same thing. In that case, June 30th is a "clean date when a team is forced to make a decision". The player knows, by midnight on June 30th, whether they will be paid for the next year. If they're waived after that, they still get the full amount of money. That's exactly the same thing that happens with a team option. In both cases, the player doesn't know until July 1 whether they have a contract for the next season, but they know with certainty on July 1, one way or the other.
    But for a player, having that team option would be a pseudo no-trade clause. If I were a 30 year old free agent, I'd want a bit more stability for my family, so if I insisted on an option instead of a non-guaranteed deal, I know that I'm not getting moved early without the extra guaranteed money. With a non-guaranteed deal, as a player, I could get moved and waived and be unemployed. For a player there is definitely incentive to have the option route built into the contract over the non-guaranteed route.

    And before you start, my reading comprehension is quite high. Don't get tunnel-vision with your views, that's the BC way.

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    I really could not give less of a fuck...
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    Wow, we're really digging deep and going the extra mile with our hate on.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Wow, we're really digging deep and going the extra mile with our hate on.
    With Barg gone, the hate is running out of fuel

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    "basically nobody in the league gives out team options anymore, and why it's just a stupid thing to do."

    I'm not the expert on NBA contracts you are, but only 19/30 teams currently have them, outside of rookie scale deals

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I'm not the expert on NBA contracts you are, but only 19/30 teams currently have them, outside of rookie scale deals
    Clearly. The only team options, outside of rookie-scale deals, currently in the league are:

    Francisco Garcia
    Dante Cunningham
    Jodie Meeks
    Mario Chalmers

    Where are the other 15 you're claiming?

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    Clearly. The only team options, outside of rookie-scale deals, currently in the league are:

    Francisco Garcia
    Dante Cunningham
    Jodie Meeks
    Mario Chalmers

    Where are the other 15 you're claiming?
    I'm assuming you got the information from the 2013-2014 FA list. I'm pretty sure there are other team options in the future. I can say off the top of my head that Amir and Varejao have team options for next year.

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    Clearly. The only team options, outside of rookie-scale deals, currently in the league are:

    Francisco Garcia
    Dante Cunningham
    Jodie Meeks
    Mario Chalmers

    Where are the other 15 you're claiming?
    'Clearly", huh. Just what deep dark hole is your head buried in? (considering your "reading comprehension" remarks, that's due). Actually, I made a mistake, there's 20 other teams, besides Toronto, that currently have "team option" contracts. So, you spout that nobody does it anymore, while 21 of 30 teams currently have these type of contracts.

    Atlanta(2)- DeShawn Stevenson, Mike Scott
    Boston(2)- Shavlik Randolph, DJ White
    Brooklyn- Kris Joseph
    Charlotte(2)- Jeff Adrien, Jeffery Taylor
    Chicago- Hamilton
    Cleveland(4)- Varajao, Alonzo Gee, Chris Quinn, Kevin Jones
    Denver- Wilson Chandler
    GSW- Draymond Green
    Houston(3)- Chandler Parsons, James Anderson, Tim Ohlbrecht
    LAC- DaJuan Summers
    Memphis(2)- Kosta Koufos, Donte Green
    Milwaukee(2)- Ersan Ilyasova, Ishmael Smith
    Minny- Mickael Gelabale
    NOLA- Robin lopez
    OKC(2)- Hasheem Thabeet, Daniel Orton
    Orlando(2)- Jameer Nelson, Doron Lamb
    Phx- P J tucker
    Portland- Aleksandar Pavlovic
    Sacramento- Salmons
    Utah- Kevin Murphy

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    Quote JStockton wrote: View Post
    I'm assuming you got the information from the 2013-2014 FA list. I'm pretty sure there are other team options in the future. I can say off the top of my head that Amir and Varejao have team options for next year.
    Both of those guys have unguaranteed final years, not team options.

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    'Clearly", huh. Just what deep dark hole is your head buried in? (considering your "reading comprehension" remarks, that's due). Actually, I made a mistake, there's 20 other teams, besides Toronto, that currently have "team option" contracts. So, you spout that nobody does it anymore, while 21 of 30 teams currently have these type of contracts.

    Atlanta(2)- DeShawn Stevenson, Mike Scott
    Boston(2)- Shavlik Randolph, DJ White
    Brooklyn- Kris Joseph
    Charlotte(2)- Jeff Adrien, Jeffery Taylor
    Chicago- Hamilton
    Cleveland(4)- Varajao, Alonzo Gee, Chris Quinn, Kevin Jones
    Denver- Wilson Chandler
    GSW- Draymond Green
    Houston(3)- Chandler Parsons, James Anderson, Tim Ohlbrecht
    LAC- DaJuan Summers
    Memphis(2)- Kosta Koufos, Donte Green
    Milwaukee(2)- Ersan Ilyasova, Ishmael Smith
    Minny- Mickael Gelabale
    NOLA- Robin lopez
    OKC(2)- Hasheem Thabeet, Daniel Orton
    Orlando(2)- Jameer Nelson, Doron Lamb
    Phx- P J tucker
    Portland- Aleksandar Pavlovic
    Sacramento- Salmons
    Utah- Kevin Murphy
    Every one of those guys you've listed has an unguaranteed final year (or in a couple cases like Hasheem Thabeet, two unguaranteed years), NOT a team option. Wherever you're getting your information from, it's wrong--sounds like they're conflating unguaranteed final years and team options, precisely because pretty much everyone in the league uses unguaranteed deals now.

    Which is exactly what I've been saying.
    Last edited by tkfu; Thu Jul 4th, 2013 at 04:47 AM.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Time to shift attention to DeRozan and Ross I guess. Maybe they can re-sign Hoffa?

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Time to shift attention to DeRozan and Ross I guess. Maybe they can re-sign Hoffa?
    With Camby back on board, I was wondering if Toronto might help Dallas clear additional cap space by trading for Carter, so we can have a Raptors old-timers reunion... what a wonderful PR/nostalgia move to disguise tanking! ooohhhh and our RE-branding can include purple jerseys and cartoon dinosaurs! SWEET!

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    So, John Lucas was given a two year deal, with a team option on the second year. I didn't know this until I read that the Raptors declined to pick up his team option or I'd have been complaining about it sooner, but let me take a second to explain why basically nobody in the league gives out team options anymore, and why it's just a stupid thing to do.

    The rules with team options are as follows:

    - The choice of whether to exercise the option or not must be made before June 30th in the year preceding.
    - A player may not be traded between the end of the season and June 30th if he has the possibility of being a free agent that summer; thus, a player with an option year or an ETO (regardless of whether it's a player or team option) must have the option picked up before any trade can take place.

    Unguaranteed contracts are much, much better for the team, and have no disadvantage for the player:

    - The guarantee date can be set to whatever the parties can agree on. It can be June 30th, so it works just like a team option for the player, but much better for the team (see below). It can be sometime in the summer, to give the team a little time to look at free agency/trade options before having to make a decision, but still leaving the player time to sign with another team. It can even be during the following season, or come in stages.
    - A player with an unguaranteed contract has no restrictions on being traded. If a team wants to clear cap space, they can trade a player with a $5 mil guaranteed contract for a player with a $5 mil unguaranteed contract and immediately waive the unguaranteed player. This makes players with unguaranteed contracts a very valuable trade asset.

    So, in conclusion: there was absolutely no discernable reason to sign JL3 to a contract with a team option instead of just making the second year unguaranteed. It deprived the Raptors of a potentially valuable trade asset for absolutely no reason.
    The Jemain O'Neil for Hibbert trade was far more glaring than this... but yeah we all have great distain for what he did on that Bargniani 7 year hell ride.
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    I think the logic of the thread follows something like this...

    1) Non-guaranteed deals, are better for management, and the same for players in comparison to team options.

    2) Therefore, management should always offer an unguaranteed deal as opposed to a team option.

    3) Other teams in league are doing it this way

    4) BC didn't and therefore he's an ass-clown.

    One of there's a number of reasons why something that is so obvious to TKFU is not obvious to me (and I'm guessing others)

    1) I didn't know there was a difference between non-guaranteed deals and team options, so I need more explanation before I can agree with you that non-guaranteed deals affect players in he same manner that team options do.

    2) If you can convince me point 1, then point 2 is a given.

    3) According to hoopshype.com Amir Johnson has a team option for next year. Where can we find information that accurately tells us whether it's a team option or a non-guaranteed contract???

    4) If all the above is true it doesn't make coangelo out to be a great GM, but honestly, even if JLIII had an un-guaranteed deal that COULD have been used in a trade, odds are it wouldn't have, and the 1.5 mil is pretty easy to make up in other ways.

    So if you can convince me that un-guaranteed deals are the way to go. I'm willing to agree that Coangelo made the wrong call, however, going over the top about how bad that makes him look, distracts from what I think is the interesting part of the post which is about the difference of team options vs. guaranteed deals.
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