Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Some more evidence that Colangelo was an incompetent idiot

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    tkfu wrote: View Post
    Okay, there's some serious trouble with reading comprehension here. A non-guaranteed contract with a guarantee date of June 30th is, once again, exactly the same thing. In that case, June 30th is a "clean date when a team is forced to make a decision". The player knows, by midnight on June 30th, whether they will be paid for the next year. If they're waived after that, they still get the full amount of money. That's exactly the same thing that happens with a team option. In both cases, the player doesn't know until July 1 whether they have a contract for the next season, but they know with certainty on July 1, one way or the other.
    But for a player, having that team option would be a pseudo no-trade clause. If I were a 30 year old free agent, I'd want a bit more stability for my family, so if I insisted on an option instead of a non-guaranteed deal, I know that I'm not getting moved early without the extra guaranteed money. With a non-guaranteed deal, as a player, I could get moved and waived and be unemployed. For a player there is definitely incentive to have the option route built into the contract over the non-guaranteed route.

    And before you start, my reading comprehension is quite high. Don't get tunnel-vision with your views, that's the BC way.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

    Comment


    • #17
      tkfu wrote: View Post
      Clearly. The only team options, outside of rookie-scale deals, currently in the league are:

      Francisco Garcia
      Dante Cunningham
      Jodie Meeks
      Mario Chalmers

      Where are the other 15 you're claiming?
      I'm assuming you got the information from the 2013-2014 FA list. I'm pretty sure there are other team options in the future. I can say off the top of my head that Amir and Varejao have team options for next year.

      Comment


      • #18
        Axel wrote: View Post
        If I were a 30 year old free agent, I'd want a bit more stability for my family, so if I insisted on an option instead of a non-guaranteed deal
        A free agent normally insists on a 'player option'. Only then would his option year be guaranteed/secured. If he insists on a 'team option', it would do him no good at all. Maybe the team but not him.

        TKFU is making a good point only Colangelo may not be as idiotic as he claims. IMO.
        Attitude Is A Choice.

        Comment


        • #19
          Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
          A free agent normally insists on a 'player option'. Only then would his option year be guaranteed/secured. If he insists on a 'team option', it would do him no good at all. Maybe the team but not him.

          TKFU is making a good point only Colangelo may not be as idiotic as he claims. IMO.
          From a players point of view:
          Player option > Team Option > Non-Guaranteed 2nd year

          From a teams point of view:
          Non-Guaranteed 2nd year > Team Option > Player Option

          When a contract is negotiated, both sides come to a mutual agreement. It isn't rocket surgery to see what option would be the most mutually agreeable.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Axel wrote: View Post
            From a teams point of view:
            Non-Guaranteed 2nd year > Team Option > Player Option
            Not always.
            Attitude Is A Choice.

            Comment


            • #21
              Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
              Not always.
              ???

              That is the entire point that tkfu spouted about that you supported him in, that BC is an idiot because he didn't follow that very idea. Have you been drinking?
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

              Comment


              • #22
                tkfu wrote: View Post
                Clearly. The only team options, outside of rookie-scale deals, currently in the league are:

                Francisco Garcia
                Dante Cunningham
                Jodie Meeks
                Mario Chalmers

                Where are the other 15 you're claiming?
                'Clearly", huh. Just what deep dark hole is your head buried in? (considering your "reading comprehension" remarks, that's due). Actually, I made a mistake, there's 20 other teams, besides Toronto, that currently have "team option" contracts. So, you spout that nobody does it anymore, while 21 of 30 teams currently have these type of contracts.

                Atlanta(2)- DeShawn Stevenson, Mike Scott
                Boston(2)- Shavlik Randolph, DJ White
                Brooklyn- Kris Joseph
                Charlotte(2)- Jeff Adrien, Jeffery Taylor
                Chicago- Hamilton
                Cleveland(4)- Varajao, Alonzo Gee, Chris Quinn, Kevin Jones
                Denver- Wilson Chandler
                GSW- Draymond Green
                Houston(3)- Chandler Parsons, James Anderson, Tim Ohlbrecht
                LAC- DaJuan Summers
                Memphis(2)- Kosta Koufos, Donte Green
                Milwaukee(2)- Ersan Ilyasova, Ishmael Smith
                Minny- Mickael Gelabale
                NOLA- Robin lopez
                OKC(2)- Hasheem Thabeet, Daniel Orton
                Orlando(2)- Jameer Nelson, Doron Lamb
                Phx- P J tucker
                Portland- Aleksandar Pavlovic
                Sacramento- Salmons
                Utah- Kevin Murphy

                Comment


                • #23
                  Axel wrote: View Post
                  ???

                  That is the entire point that tkfu spouted about that you supported him in, that BC is an idiot because he didn't follow that very idea. Have you been drinking?
                  When there's a MISUNDERSTANDING, it's as simple as clearing it out.

                  TKFU's point is that a non guaranteed last year is better than a 'team option' because it enables the team to add the contract in a trade. The team that acquires the non guaranteed contract, can simply let the expiry date pass and they'll be free of the contract. He's right about that.

                  What he's wrong about IMO is that Colangelo idiotically didn't think about it.
                  Attitude Is A Choice.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    tkfu wrote: View Post
                    So, in conclusion: there was absolutely no discernable reason to sign JL3 to a contract with a team option instead of just making the second year unguaranteed. It deprived the Raptors of a potentially valuable trade asset for absolutely no reason.
                    Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                    When there's a MISUNDERSTANDING, it's as simple as clearing it out.

                    TKFU's point is that a non guaranteed last year is better than a 'team option' because it enables the team to add the contract in a trade. The team that acquires the non guaranteed contract, can simply let the expiry date pass and they'll be free of the contract. He's right about that.

                    What he's wrong about IMO is that Colangelo idiotically didn't think about it.
                    I think you are stretching to find tkfu's point. In addition to the title of the thread, his conclusion above says "no discernible reason to sign...with a team option instead of...unguaranteed". I don't think he is trying to explain the obvious correlation between contractual terms and their impacts, as much as he is saying that BC is an idiot for not getting the better (for the team) option.
                    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Axel wrote: View Post
                      I don't think he is trying to explain the obvious correlation between contractual terms and their impacts, as much as he is saying that BC is an idiot for not getting the better (for the team) option.
                      As the title of the thread suggests, clearly his point is that BC is an idiot. It's with this that I disagree.
                      Attitude Is A Choice.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        JStockton wrote: View Post
                        I'm assuming you got the information from the 2013-2014 FA list. I'm pretty sure there are other team options in the future. I can say off the top of my head that Amir and Varejao have team options for next year.
                        Both of those guys have unguaranteed final years, not team options.

                        p00ka wrote: View Post
                        'Clearly", huh. Just what deep dark hole is your head buried in? (considering your "reading comprehension" remarks, that's due). Actually, I made a mistake, there's 20 other teams, besides Toronto, that currently have "team option" contracts. So, you spout that nobody does it anymore, while 21 of 30 teams currently have these type of contracts.

                        Atlanta(2)- DeShawn Stevenson, Mike Scott
                        Boston(2)- Shavlik Randolph, DJ White
                        Brooklyn- Kris Joseph
                        Charlotte(2)- Jeff Adrien, Jeffery Taylor
                        Chicago- Hamilton
                        Cleveland(4)- Varajao, Alonzo Gee, Chris Quinn, Kevin Jones
                        Denver- Wilson Chandler
                        GSW- Draymond Green
                        Houston(3)- Chandler Parsons, James Anderson, Tim Ohlbrecht
                        LAC- DaJuan Summers
                        Memphis(2)- Kosta Koufos, Donte Green
                        Milwaukee(2)- Ersan Ilyasova, Ishmael Smith
                        Minny- Mickael Gelabale
                        NOLA- Robin lopez
                        OKC(2)- Hasheem Thabeet, Daniel Orton
                        Orlando(2)- Jameer Nelson, Doron Lamb
                        Phx- P J tucker
                        Portland- Aleksandar Pavlovic
                        Sacramento- Salmons
                        Utah- Kevin Murphy
                        Every one of those guys you've listed has an unguaranteed final year (or in a couple cases like Hasheem Thabeet, two unguaranteed years), NOT a team option. Wherever you're getting your information from, it's wrong--sounds like they're conflating unguaranteed final years and team options, precisely because pretty much everyone in the league uses unguaranteed deals now.

                        Which is exactly what I've been saying.
                        Last edited by tkfu; Thu Jul 4, 2013, 04:47 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Axel wrote: View Post
                          But for a player, having that team option would be a pseudo no-trade clause. If I were a 30 year old free agent, I'd want a bit more stability for my family, so if I insisted on an option instead of a non-guaranteed deal, I know that I'm not getting moved early without the extra guaranteed money. With a non-guaranteed deal, as a player, I could get moved and waived and be unemployed. For a player there is definitely incentive to have the option route built into the contract over the non-guaranteed route.

                          And before you start, my reading comprehension is quite high. Don't get tunnel-vision with your views, that's the BC way.
                          I'm gonna have to dispute that. Having the team option, and the mandate to pick up the option before the player gets traded, doesn't mean it's gonna be picked up. It just means the player will get waived instead. The only way it's advantageous for the player is if there's a situation where all of the following things are true (I'm gonna use JL3 as the example):

                          - JL3's valuable enough to the Raptors to get his option picked up
                          - JL3's worthless enough to potential trading partners that, if he were traded, he'd be waived
                          - Despite the fact that the Raptors think he's worth keeping around, they consider his trade value (to the team that's going to waive him) to be higher than the value of picking up his final year

                          I have to concede that it's not impossible to imagine a situation like that, but I'd say it's extremely rare. It's probably the reason why Jodie Meeks and Mario Chalmers negotiated team options rather than unguaranteed years; they would rather play for contenders, so they make it a little harder to get traded. But I very much doubt that's what happened with JL3.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            tkfu wrote: View Post
                            I'm gonna have to dispute that. Having the team option, and the mandate to pick up the option before the player gets traded, doesn't mean it's gonna be picked up. It just means the player will get waived instead. The only way it's advantageous for the player is if there's a situation where all of the following things are true (I'm gonna use JL3 as the example):

                            - JL3's valuable enough to the Raptors to get his option picked up
                            - JL3's worthless enough to potential trading partners that, if he were traded, he'd be waived
                            - Despite the fact that the Raptors think he's worth keeping around, they consider his trade value (to the team that's going to waive him) to be higher than the value of picking up his final year

                            I have to concede that it's not impossible to imagine a situation like that, but I'd say it's extremely rare. It's probably the reason why Jodie Meeks and Mario Chalmers negotiated team options rather than unguaranteed years; they would rather play for contenders, so they make it a little harder to get traded. But I very much doubt that's what happened with JL3.
                            Well as a 30 year old with a wife and baby, I can relate to how JL3 (or a player like him) would want to extra guaranteed money as compensation for being traded. With the non-guaranteed deal, JL3 gets traded then cut and gets zero dollars for the 2nd year of the deal. In the team option route, if the option is picked up, then if JL3 gets traded and cut, at least the money for year 2 is paid. When you think of the real life ramifications to a human being and their family, it makes a lot of sense for player to want the guaranteed option year.
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Axel wrote: View Post
                              Well as a 30 year old with a wife and baby, I can relate to how JL3 (or a player like him) would want to extra guaranteed money as compensation for being traded. With the non-guaranteed deal, JL3 gets traded then cut and gets zero dollars for the 2nd year of the deal. In the team option route, if the option is picked up, then if JL3 gets traded and cut, at least the money for year 2 is paid. When you think of the real life ramifications to a human being and their family, it makes a lot of sense for player to want the guaranteed option year.
                              Right, but the point is that with the team option, he doesn't get traded at all: he just gets cut.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I think the logic of the thread follows something like this...

                                1) Non-guaranteed deals, are better for management, and the same for players in comparison to team options.

                                2) Therefore, management should always offer an unguaranteed deal as opposed to a team option.

                                3) Other teams in league are doing it this way

                                4) BC didn't and therefore he's an ass-clown.

                                One of there's a number of reasons why something that is so obvious to TKFU is not obvious to me (and I'm guessing others)

                                1) I didn't know there was a difference between non-guaranteed deals and team options, so I need more explanation before I can agree with you that non-guaranteed deals affect players in he same manner that team options do.

                                2) If you can convince me point 1, then point 2 is a given.

                                3) According to hoopshype.com Amir Johnson has a team option for next year. Where can we find information that accurately tells us whether it's a team option or a non-guaranteed contract???

                                4) If all the above is true it doesn't make coangelo out to be a great GM, but honestly, even if JLIII had an un-guaranteed deal that COULD have been used in a trade, odds are it wouldn't have, and the 1.5 mil is pretty easy to make up in other ways.

                                So if you can convince me that un-guaranteed deals are the way to go. I'm willing to agree that Coangelo made the wrong call, however, going over the top about how bad that makes him look, distracts from what I think is the interesting part of the post which is about the difference of team options vs. guaranteed deals.
                                "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                                "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                                "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X