Page 9 of 16 FirstFirst ... 7 8 9 10 11 ... LastLast
Results 161 to 180 of 305

Thread: Pistons interested in Rudy Gay

  1. #161
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I don't think it works that way. Free agents look at rosters when making decisions. If Rudy (one the main reasons why we make the playoffs) is gone, I can't see free agents lining up to join a team without him.
    Doesn't mean we can't resign Rudy.

  2. #162
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    18,983
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    People want all this cap space. Players won't come here into we built a winning culture. That's why I say let this team make the playoffs for a couple more years. Than when Rudy comes off in two years players will actually want to come here.
    Honestly I'd rather try lottery ball luck/asset accumulation than go that route.

    Most guys are going to be 27/29 yrs of age and available to anyone and everyone.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  3. #163
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    18,983
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Micic is a guy getting no attention and is much deserving.

    Between one and dones, sophomores, and intl players, 2014 is going to be great.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #164
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,731
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I've never been ok with tanking. Its completely overrated, there isn't a single team in the past 10 to 12 years that comes to mind that tanked for a top pick and won an nba championship. The odds are so low its not even funny.
    Also to me Ujiri doesn't look like the kind of guy who would tank intentionally, if he did trade Gay it would be for cheaper talent kinda like he did with Denver.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  5. #165
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    351
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Sam17 wrote: View Post
    http://nbadraft.net/2014mock_draft

    By the looks of things, any top 8 pick in this draft will be worth celebrating. This draft looks fucking nasty
    So, that means that all of the tanking teams (let's say 7 or 8) get a great player, and the Raptors are one of them. How does that make the Raptors any better than the other 6 or 7 tanking teams, let alone all of the better teams that didn't tank. It's not as though the Raptors can tank and then be the only team that improves by getting a good prospect.

    The NBA has a lot of parity, so teams have to distinguish themselves by having a very good coach and system, and a team that is well-constructed. The other way to do it is have a few superstars collude to play together. For the Raptors, they should be looking at models like Memphis and Indiana. The only top 5 picks that Memphis has had in the past 15 years are Hasheem Thabeet, Kevin Love and Mike Conley. They traded Love for another top 5 pick (OJ Mayo). Only Conley remains with the team, and he good but not a superstar. The rest of their team was built through good picks (later in the draft), and shrewd team building.

    Indiana has had only one top 10 pick in 15 years (George at #10). They built the team with good talent assessment and understanding how a team is constructed.

    These seem to be realistic and more rational models for building a team.

    Colangelo did a good job of buying low on Gay (from a basketball perspective). He is young enough that his value is going to increase substantially in the next couple of years as he comes closer to the end of his contract. If Gay meshes well with JV and the rest of the team, then the Raptors should try to build a very strong team with the core that they have. Perhaps they can swap DD for more compatible players that build a distinct defensive and offensive identity. That's what GMs are paid for.

  6. Like JStockton, Primer, p00ka, NoPropsneeded liked this post
  7. #166
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,731
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Bouncepass wrote: View Post
    So, that means that all of the tanking teams (let's say 7 or 8) get a great player, and the Raptors are one of them. How does that make the Raptors any better than the other 6 or 7 tanking teams, let alone all of the better teams that didn't tank. It's not as though the Raptors can tank and then be the only team that improves by getting a good prospect.

    The NBA has a lot of parity, so teams have to distinguish themselves by having a very good coach and system, and a team that is well-constructed. The other way to do it is have a few superstars collude to play together. For the Raptors, they should be looking at models like Memphis and Indiana. The only top 5 picks that Memphis has had in the past 15 years are Hasheem Thabeet, Kevin Love and Mike Conley. They traded Love for another top 5 pick (OJ Mayo). Only Conley remains with the team, and he good but not a superstar. The rest of their team was built through good picks (later in the draft), and shrewd team building.

    Indiana has had only one top 10 pick in 15 years (George at #10). They built the team with good talent assessment and understanding how a team is constructed.

    These seem to be realistic and more rational models for building a team.

    Colangelo did a good job of buying low on Gay (from a basketball perspective). He is young enough that his value is going to increase substantially in the next couple of years as he comes closer to the end of his contract. If Gay meshes well with JV and the rest of the team, then the Raptors should try to build a very strong team with the core that they have. Perhaps they can swap DD for more compatible players that build a distinct defensive and offensive identity. That's what GMs are paid for.
    This is what i mean, trading a player for another piece that may be a better fit. Rather than just trading for garbage and picks hoping one of the picks will end up blooming into something above average
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  8. #167
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    3,063
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    As a new GM you dont want to come in and Tank during your first year what sense does that make?

  9. #168
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    1,110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    On top of that half the league is taking for these guys...
    No, they aren't. Here is a total list of teams that are definitely deliberately tanking at this point:

    Boston
    Philly
    Phoenix
    maybe Orlando

    That's it. Sacramento isn't tanking yet: they're courting quality free agents and making it clear they're willing to spend money to make the playoffs. So is Detroit. So is Minnesota. So is Milwaukee. Even Charlotte is still trying to pursue free agents. One of the reasons I like the idea of trading Rudy to Detroit (albeit not at what they offered) is because it can simultaneously give us some helpful assets at the same time as it removes a potential lottery competitor - and even with Rudy, Detroit is hardly assured of making playoffs.

    Only Boston and Philly are ahead of us right now, and what do they have? Boston has Brooklyn's pick (non-lottery) and Philly has New Orleans' pick (low lottery or non-lottery depending on how well their season goes; they're a playoff threat now). We should be moving, not in a panic, but smartly to get the best return on those assets we have which other teams crave and which can advance a rapid rebuild.

  10. #169
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,286
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Luck is better than putting this franchise in the hands of basically average and overpaid players, which is mostly what we've got. Seriously, it's like Raps fans want this team to be the Milwaukee Bucks.

    And it's not about luck. Like others have said: it's about maximizing value. Aiming to get a high draft pick in a loaded year is one good way to maximize value, so working towards that is a viable strategy. We shouldn't trade away Rudy for crap like Detroit wanted, because that's not good value - but if they offered us promising young players and/or draft picks, or if another team like Golden State or Cleveland does, then that is good value and we should make that trade. Expiring contracts are good value too because next year's free agent crop is extremely strong even if we aren't going to make a serious bid for LeBron (which we won't).
    Who said anything about the decision being "full blown tank" VS "status quote"? There is lots of gray area in between, which is precisely what "retooling" is. I think it's safe to say that there are still changes to come, likely some big and some small. I just don't think it will be a blow-it-up all-out tank job.

    I do agree more with your 2nd paragraph, which seems to be talking about being opportunistic when retooling trades present themselves, to benefit both the short and long terms. I think that's just good roster management, regardless of the specific strategy being employed.

    For me, my preferred approach, in order of preference:

    1. retool - win now in a weak east, with more focus on building a team designed to really start winning in 2-3 seasons, in a sustainble way

    2. rebuild - blow it up, tank, rebuild, whatever you want to call it when the short term is sacrificed for the long term (ie: 3-5 year horizon before sustainable winning is expected)

    3. status quo - minor tweaks only... umm wasn't BC fired for wanting to continue down this path?
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Jul 3rd, 2013 at 04:25 PM.

  11. #170
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Posts
    3,848
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    It's so hard to get production out the wings spot and we have to players. People underestimate how talented this team is. With have two players that if their going good they are borderline all-stars(Lowry and Gay). We have an emerging all-star(Valanaciunas). Than we have a SG who just happens to be a top 5 scorer at his position. Lets just tweak a bit. No more tanking please.

  12. Like Rapstor4Life liked this post
  13. #171
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    1,110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Who said anything about the decision being "full blown tank" VS "status quote"? There is lots of gray area in between, which is precisely what "retooling" is. I think it's safe to say that there are still changes to come, likely some big and some small. I just don't think it will be a blow-it-up all-out tank job.
    I disagree, because if we're going to retool, we are by definition selling a bit low on many of our assets. Assume that "retooling" means trading one to three of Lowry, Rudy and DeMar (our most tradeable assets). We're going to need to find trade partners who want to win and who need players who are good - but are willing to pay us for "good, MIGHT be great if you squint a little or if you get real lucky." Then we can make out like bandits.

    Right now the shortlist for that is Milwaukee (offering Kyle Korver $20 million for three years? They're trying to overpay their way into the playoffs just like we did), Detroit (desperately wants a "name" power forward, maybe a point guard as well), and Sacramento (new owners want immediate success, also willing to overpay). MAYBE Charlotte, depends on how delusional they are this week. These are the guys who can afford to give away too much and who will do so, and not coincidentally they're also the guys who, if we can pry 2014 draft picks from them, stand a good chance of still being lottery.

    (The next tier down is Cleveland, Minnesota, Washington and Portland, who are all still looking for pieces, but who are all more likely to make playoffs.)

    Target those teams who are desperate - who coincidentally are also generally happy to make playoffs for one round only, because they tend to be smaller markets and the playoff money gives them a serious financial boost and cred with their fans. ENABLE these people. Tell Detroit that Lowry is available to solve their point guard woes since Brandon Knight isn't very good at being a point guard (he's a combo guard at best). Tell Sacramento we can get them to playoff contention, but it'll cost them that pick. WORK them. But in order to work 'em, you gotta be willing to give up something.

  14. #172
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    1,110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    It's so hard to get production out the wings spot and we have to players. People underestimate how talented this team is. With have two players that if their going good they are borderline all-stars(Lowry and Gay). We have an emerging all-star(Valanaciunas). Than we have a SG who just happens to be a top 5 scorer at his position. Lets just tweak a bit. No more tanking please.
    People know exactly how talented this team is. They top out at being a .500 team, plain and simple. Lowry isn't a top-10 PG. Our best player, Rudy, isn't a top-5 SF. Demar isn't a top-anything. Jonas is a promising work in progress and hopefully this season is his emergence as a primary weapon for the Raptors, but "hopefully" is a lot of things and sometimes it's Greg Oden's knees.

    BC was fired for putting this team together. Saying it's fine is silly.

  15. #173
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Manitoba
    Posts
    482
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Ujiri is not going to give Gay away, but I still think he send him packing. My assumption is that he is merely waiting for the other shoe to drop. Once Iguodala and Smith have agreed to contracts the market for Gay will open wide! By my count, here are the teams that have been rumored to be interested in them, or have already met with them:

    Iguodala:
    - Sacramento (offer withdrawn)
    - Denver
    - Detroit
    - New Orleans
    - Atlanta
    - Houston
    - Golden State
    - Dallas
    - Cleveland

    Josh Smith:
    - Atlanta
    - Golden State
    - Detroit
    - Houston
    - Atlanta
    - Dallas
    - Milwaukee
    - Cleveland

    I'm confident a few of those teams would not have interest in Rudy (Denver and Houston as examples), but several would view him as a solid back-up plan. Detroit in particular seems desperate to add a key wing player this offseason.

    I think we are also forgetting that Joe Dumars is still in charge in Detroit. The same man who signed Gordon and Villanueva to huge contracts in the same summer. He is antzy and ready to spend some money!

  16. #174
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,286
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    I disagree, because if we're going to retool, we are by definition selling a bit low on many of our assets. Assume that "retooling" means trading one to three of Lowry, Rudy and DeMar (our most tradeable assets). We're going to need to find trade partners who want to win and who need players who are good - but are willing to pay us for "good, MIGHT be great if you squint a little or if you get real lucky." Then we can make out like bandits.

    Right now the shortlist for that is Milwaukee (offering Kyle Korver $20 million for three years? They're trying to overpay their way into the playoffs just like we did), Detroit (desperately wants a "name" power forward, maybe a point guard as well), and Sacramento (new owners want immediate success, also willing to overpay). MAYBE Charlotte, depends on how delusional they are this week. These are the guys who can afford to give away too much and who will do so, and not coincidentally they're also the guys who, if we can pry 2014 draft picks from them, stand a good chance of still being lottery.

    (The next tier down is Cleveland, Minnesota, Washington and Portland, who are all still looking for pieces, but who are all more likely to make playoffs.)

    Target those teams who are desperate - who coincidentally are also generally happy to make playoffs for one round only, because they tend to be smaller markets and the playoff money gives them a serious financial boost and cred with their fans. ENABLE these people. Tell Detroit that Lowry is available to solve their point guard woes since Brandon Knight isn't very good at being a point guard (he's a combo guard at best). Tell Sacramento we can get them to playoff contention, but it'll cost them that pick. WORK them. But in order to work 'em, you gotta be willing to give up something.
    Is it harder to find a trade partner to fulfill "retooling" requirements? Absolutely.

    However, I strongly disagree if you're sticking to the position that "tanking" and "status quo" are the only viable options for team building.

    Gay trade rumors provide the perfect challenge to that type of thinking:

    Tank Trade - expiring contracts who won't be part of the team's future and draft picks (purposefully get worse now, in the hopes of using cap space and draft picks to get better than you already are) --> the rumored Detroit offer would fall into this category (salary dump tank trade)

    Retooling Trade - a young rotation player (could be established and already equally talented to outgoing player or young, slightly less talented, with high ceiling for improvement), contract filler (ideally still expiring, but at least not a handicap for future flexibility) and draft picks (may not be as high as a straight tank trade, but should still be decent)


    Based on what TL/MU have said publically, based on alleged feedback to Detroit's offer and based on my personal assumptions from all of the above, I strongly doubt that MU is in 'tank' mode. Gay might very well be available - along with every other Raptor not named Valanciunas - but only for an insanely good deal, not just a dump/tank style trade. It's the motivation behind trades and what is being looked for in return, which is the difference between 'tanking' and 'retooling' in my books.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Jul 3rd, 2013 at 05:09 PM.

  17. Like p00ka liked this post
  18. #175
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    175
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I always like your posts Matt but today i swear your taking the words out of my mouth on like every post.
    Well done, and thank you from saving me from typing.

  19. #176
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,162
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    I've never been ok with tanking. Its completely overrated, there isn't a single team in the past 10 to 12 years that comes to mind that tanked for a top pick and won an nba championship. The odds are so low its not even funny.
    Also to me Ujiri doesn't look like the kind of guy who would tank intentionally, if he did trade Gay it would be for cheaper talent kinda like he did with Denver.
    Tanking doesn't guarantee you a championship, it gives you an opportunity to acquire an elite talent which you can build your team around. It's still up to the management to put together a winning team. But right now I would rather be in Chicago's shoes with D. Rose or OKC's with Durrant than be a team like Indiana or Denver with no true difference maker.

  20. #177
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,731
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    No, they aren't. Here is a total list of teams that are definitely deliberately tanking at this point:

    Boston
    Philly
    Phoenix
    maybe Orlando

    That's it. Sacramento isn't tanking yet: they're courting quality free agents and making it clear they're willing to spend money to make the playoffs. So is Detroit. So is Minnesota. So is Milwaukee. Even Charlotte is still trying to pursue free agents. One of the reasons I like the idea of trading Rudy to Detroit (albeit not at what they offered) is because it can simultaneously give us some helpful assets at the same time as it removes a potential lottery competitor - and even with Rudy, Detroit is hardly assured of making playoffs.

    Only Boston and Philly are ahead of us right now, and what do they have? Boston has Brooklyn's pick (non-lottery) and Philly has New Orleans' pick (low lottery or non-lottery depending on how well their season goes; they're a playoff threat now). We should be moving, not in a panic, but smartly to get the best return on those assets we have which other teams crave and which can advance a rapid rebuild.
    Atlanta
    Boston
    Charlotte
    Cavs (unless they land a big time FA)
    Magic
    Sixers
    Suns
    Trailblazers (most likely will not be much better than last season)
    Kings (depends on how the off season goes)

    Those are 9 teams that are basically tanking next season or just not good enough for the playoffs as of right now. I obviously was exaggerating but that is still a lot of teams. You could throw Utah, NO or even the lakers on there (if Howard doesn't agree to stay). Which tallies up to around 13 teams leaving 1 spot available...
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  21. #178
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Manitoba
    Posts
    482
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Tank Trade - expiring contracts who won't be part of the team's future and draft picks (purposefully get worse now, in the hopes of using cap space and draft picks to get better than you already are) --> the rumored Detroit offer would fall into this category (salary dump tank trade)

    Retooling Trade - a young rotation player (could be established and already equally talented to outgoing player or young, slightly less talented, with high ceiling for improvement), contract filler (ideally still expiring, but at least not a handicap for future flexibility) and draft picks (may not be as high as a straight tank trade, but should still be decent)


    Based on what TL/MU have said publically, based on alleged feedback to Detroit's offer and based on my personal assumptions from all of the above, I strongly doubt that MU is in 'tank' mode. Gay might very well be available - along with every other Raptor not named Valanciunas - but only for an insanely good deal, not just a dump/tank style trade. It's the motivation behind trades and what is being looked for in return, which is the difference between 'tanking' and 'retooling' in my books.
    I understand your logic but disagree with your conclusion. The fact that Ujiri dismissed the Detroit offer of Stucky and Villanueva leads me to believe all the more that he is doing a more complete rebuilt, rather than a retool. There was simply not enough incentive toward the Detroit trade. I am confident that if there was a few picks attached as well and/or a young player like KCP/Drummond (who still need seasoning) that the deal would be likely.

  22. #179
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    18,983
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Burnit482 wrote: View Post
    I always like your posts Matt but today i swear your taking the words out of my mouth on like every post.
    Well done, and thank you from saving me from typing.
    Glad to be of assistance. At least one person enjoysvreadin/conversing with me lol
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  23. #180
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,958
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Glad to be of assistance. At least one person enjoysvreadin/conversing with me lol
    personally I can't stand it when you crush my dreams with facts. :P

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •