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Thread: Playoffs Next Year! Fool's Gold?

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    Raptors Republic Rookie toebeesaw's Avatar
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    Default Playoffs Next Year! Fool's Gold?

    With the 7th(Boston), 8th(Milwaukee), & 9th seed(Philly) all tanking for next year, do you think making the playoffs next year is fool's gold? Given the Raps finished 10th it seems automatic.

    I'm a believer in not tanking because the draft is a lottery, but maybe those team are re-tooling for a brighter future in 2014-15 (Free agency class). Mind you the three teams I have mentioned have played in the playoffs and Boston has a ring. The Raps have neither. Are the Raps doing it right or are the bottom seeds doing it right?

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    Raptors Republic Starter OzRapFan's Avatar
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    I think we should take advantage of the tankers and shoot for the playoffs and give the young guys some playoff experience or make Toronto more attractive to potential free agents, if it doesn't work Gays contract will be off the books soon and we can retool or reset then as long as the dont take on any contracts longer than 2 years.

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    Raptors Republic Starter hotfuzz's Avatar
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    Quote OzRapFan wrote: View Post
    I think we should take advantage of the tankers and shoot for the playoffs and give the young guys some playoff experience or make Toronto more attractive to potential free agents, if it doesn't work Gays contract will be off the books soon and we can retool or reset then as long as the dont take on any contracts longer than 2 years.
    I'm sorry, but that is a bunch of BS that I see thrown around so much. Making the 7th or 8th seed and getting kicked out in the first round won't make you more attractive to free agents. Just ask how that is working out for Bucks and Hawks.

    Free agents are attracted by either a rich history, or having a superstar or an upcoming star in your roster. The best way to attain that upcoming star? The draft. Just look at the Clippers. You think Paul would have agreed if they hadn't drafter Griffin? What about Heat signing LBJ? Do you think he would have if they didn't have Wade?

    If you look at the majority of the NBA finals MVP in the past 15 years, they were drafted by the team. If there's one unwritten rule in the NBA, it's that you can't win without a STAR! (or multiple ones)
    "Duh! Winning"
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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote hotfuzz wrote: View Post
    I'm sorry, but that is a bunch of BS that I see thrown around so much. Making the 7th or 8th seed and getting kicked out in the first round won't make you more attractive to free agents. Just ask how that is working out for Bucks and Hawks.

    Free agents are attracted by either a rich history, or having a superstar or an upcoming star in your roster. The best way to attain that upcoming star? The draft. Just look at the Clippers. You think Paul would have agreed if they hadn't drafter Griffin? What about Heat signing LBJ? Do you think he would have if they didn't have Wade?

    If you look at the majority of the NBA finals MVP in the past 15 years, they were drafted by the team. If there's one unwritten rule in the NBA, it's that you can't win without a STAR! (or multiple ones)
    Totally agree.

    If you want to see a competitive team next year, that's fine. Considering all the losing lately, that's a perfectly understandable point of view.

    But let's not pretend that the NBA's A-listers will look at a 42-win team and think to themselves, "I'm going to the tee-dot!". Not gonna happen.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    I don't mind making the playoffs next year but i wouldn't look at it as being earned. If we aim for the playoffs next year and miss them and we didn't make whatever possible trades for our players we, hypothetically, could be making now, we are up shits creek. Boston is going to have money, young players and draft picks. They might be taking one year to maybe nab the big fish.

    If we stick with our guys are don't become contenders hiw long does jv stay? Do we hope wiggins strings his team along for 7 years with his eyes on coming home?

    I really think, along with lots of gms actually, that this is the year where the gold is at the bottom of the pile.

    Send Gay out, use some of that money on lowry. Get that high draft pick and with a lottle luck the stars align, right?

    Ramble, ramble. Happy for the playoffs, would be expected but don't think its the right course.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    I hope we make the playoffs, because even if we don't (barring some sort of injury epidemic) we'll just end up with a less than 5% chance of getting the 1st pick. I'd rather say goodbye to that slim chance and have guys like Derozan, JV and Amir get to experience the playoffs, get a feel for winning and see how much tougher it is when the regular season ends.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Making the playoffs this year should be attainable, but should it be the goal? I think if we make the playoffs as the 5th-8th seed, it accomplishes nothing except allow all the teams that tanked to surpass us quickly next season. But with so many teams seeming to look at the top of the lottery, tanking is a huge risk.

    I think MU needs to look at each piece of the roster, gauge their trade value, and then make a quick but firm decision; tank or push? If you want to push, then there are teams out there willing to sell off assets to tank. If you want to tank, then taking a deal like Detroit's expiring garbage for Gay will get you there. At the end of the day, whatever decision MU makes has to put us in a better position in the next 2-3 years. We need to be competitive and not carry so much bloated salary.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    PLayoffs are never fool's gold, it's more about how you get there.

    I mean, if the Raps "tank" and trade Gay, DeMar and Lowry....but say JV explodes, and they still compete for the playoffs, possibly making it or just missing again....what does that mean then? I mean, JV will have proven himself as a franchise player (or close to it). And our chances at a good lottery pick are not much better than if we had kept all those guys.

    Anyway, just to say, as long as we don't follow the Colangelo model, as in "mortgage the future" to get into the playoffs (I guess it was the NYK model before BC came to Toronto, and now the Knicks can claim ownership again), I'm fine with whatever happens. Maintain draft assets....Sell high on non-keepers (trust Ujiri to sort that out)...Don't put the team in a compromising financial situation.

    I'm not a fan of tanking, and think this team could try to trade up in terms of talent, rather than down, and still be building properly, but either way, like I said, it's all about building the right way regardless. I suppose I'm skeptical about a tank-job because BC has been our GM for 7 years, and I have a hard time picturing the Raps making good trades and draft choices. I definitely have more faith in Ujiri, but still hard to take that leap.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    PLayoffs are never fool's gold, it's more about how you get there.
    bullshit!

    how'd those spankings work out for philly? the bucks?

    philly even made THE PROMISED LAND (2nd round) and thought so highly of the experience they blew it the hell up. i think they made a good choice!

    bucks got destroyed and now face the decision of whether to go philly's route or resign ellis and jennings and possibly get shallacked in the first round for the next five years! yay?!

    how's being moderately good forever worked for atlanta?

    how does squeaking in next year move this team any further along? it moves us further back, as teams behind us get better.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    bullshit!

    how'd those spankings work out for philly? the bucks?

    philly even made THE PROMISED LAND (2nd round) and thought so highly of the experience they blew it the hell up. i think they made a good choice!

    bucks got destroyed and now face the decision of whether to go philly's route or resign ellis and jennings and possibly get shallacked in the first round for the next five years! yay?!

    how's being moderately good forever worked for atlanta?

    how does squeaking in next year move this team any further along? it moves us further back, as teams behind us get better.
    First off, Philly did not build a team properly. If you read my post you'd notice that was the critical point. Milwaukee tries, but Milwaukee can't keep or attract top tier talent, so they're also a piss poor example.

    Playoffs are a reward for hard work during a season.

    By the indiscriminately tanking logic....If this team blew it up except for JV, and still made the playoffs...what then? Trade JV to have worse picks and rebuild again? Fucking ridiculous.

    At no point in my post did I mention anything about being moderately good forever.

    You'll notice my key point was regardless of playoffs, these following things must be constant, in which case I will have faith that the front office knows what they're doing better than legions of tank-hungry fans.
    ->Key issues:
    -Maintain draft assets....
    -Sell high on non-keepers (trust Ujiri to sort that out in terms of who to keep)
    -Don't put the team in a compromising financial situation

    If the team is doing all these things and still makes the playoffs despite, say, trading away players like Gay, DeMar, Lowry, how can you still be fucking upset? Again, would you want them then to trade the pieces that got them to the playoffs despite the blow-up? That makes no fucking sense...

    Stupid tanking logic
    "We need to lose to get higher picks and better players"
    "Shit, we traded the players we thought kept us mediocre and became better."
    "Guess we need to trade those guys, too. Can't afford to surpass expectations. If we keep losing for several decades, maybe we can become the next Clippers"

    If Indiana followed that logic, the year after they drafted George they should've blown it up. I mean, they finished 8th at 37-45 with a roster still lacking in balance and talent. Instead they picked up David West and George Hill to add to their core and are now at least a conference contender with an outside shot (but a legit one) at a title. It's not so simple as "we're mediocre so it's better to start sucking again".

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    If you read my post
    sorry i didn't make it real far but to defend myself it started with a categorically false statement for which i retorted with a list of teams to whom that statement is completely untrue. you could toss the raps next year, as built, right in that pile because

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Philly did not build a team properly
    neither have we

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    By the indiscriminately tanking logic....If this team blew it up except for JV, and still made the playoffs...what then? Trade JV to have worse picks and rebuild again? Fucking ridiculous.
    that is fucking ridiculous but i've not seen anyone suggest anything to that effect. if we gutted this team and JV led us to the playoffs than congratulations to us, we have a top ten NBA player and the hardest part in the rebuild is complete. then you could take the assets acquired in the liquidation (cap space from the expiring and draft picks) and draft, trade, or sign players you think are complimentary to prices that are fair, instead of the wildly, irresponsibly overpaid pieces that do not fit together that we currently have.

    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    You'll notice my key point was regardless of playoffs, these following things must be constant, in which case I will have faith that the front office knows what they're doing better than legions of tank-hungry fans.
    ->Key issues:
    -Maintain draft assets....
    -Sell high on non-keepers (trust Ujiri to sort that out in terms of who to keep)
    -Don't put the team in a compromising financial situation
    i’m alright with that approach so long as gay is included in the non-keeper category. i’d prefer to rebuild proper and do what the cavs and wizards just did, since we have never ever done this (it seems like it, because we’ve been so bad for most of our existence, but we always went for the short cut and never got bad enough to get significantly better), but yeah, as long as gay is gone i’m fine.

    what do you do with gay in 2 offseasons by the way if he puts up same numbers and he’s the best player on our team and we just spent two seasons finishing 6-8 and getting creamed in the first round? he’s not taking a 5 mil per paycut down to what he’s actually worth. not after he just led us to false relevancy. this scenario scares the crap out of me.
    Last edited by chris; Wed Jul 3rd, 2013 at 09:49 PM. Reason: clarity

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    Quote chris wrote: View Post

    that is fucking ridiculous but i've not seen anyone suggest anything to that effect. if we gutted this team and JV led us to the playoffs than congratulations to us, we have a top ten NBA player and the hardest part in the rebuild is complete. then you could take the assets acquired in the liquidation (cap space from the expiring and draft picks) and draft, trade, or sign players you think are complimentary to prices that are fair, instead of the wildly, irresponsibly overpaid pieces that do not fit together that we currently have.

    See "White Men Can't Jump"? just like paint by numbers. The other GMs want to see us do well, and the big FAs are going to flock to us with our cap space and the same promise as we'll give JV (below).

    chris, so if you've given away all your legit player assets, except JV, for expirings and draft picks, what do you have to "trade" to get anything of value if JV performs like that? You have no tradeable players apparently, they'd all be FAs. Trade all the draft picks ya got back to teams that will give you worse than you gave, or tell Jonas not to worry, trust us, we'll have a real team with a few more drafts and 6 more years of developing the high schoolers we have our eyes on?
    Last edited by p00ka; Wed Jul 3rd, 2013 at 10:57 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    bullshit!

    how'd those spankings work out for philly? the bucks?

    philly even made THE PROMISED LAND (2nd round) and thought so highly of the experience they blew it the hell up. i think they made a good choice!

    bucks got destroyed and now face the decision of whether to go philly's route or resign ellis and jennings and possibly get shallacked in the first round for the next five years! yay?!

    how's being moderately good forever worked for atlanta?

    how does squeaking in next year move this team any further along? it moves us further back, as teams behind us get better.
    7-11 is fine as long as it is not your ceiling.


    76ers/Bucks had that as their ceiling.

    Pacers/Grizz/OKC used it as a stepping stone (all in various ways).
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    7-11 is fine as long as it is not your ceiling.


    76ers/Bucks had that as their ceiling.

    Pacers/Grizz/OKC used it as a stepping stone (all in various ways).
    yeah but that is this teams ceiling right now. a little higher maybe but not significantly

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    yeah but that is this teams ceiling right now. a little higher maybe but not significantly
    I'm well aware.

    MOre importantly MU and TL appear to be aware.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    bullshit!

    how'd those spankings work out for philly? the bucks?

    philly even made THE PROMISED LAND (2nd round) and thought so highly of the experience they blew it the hell up. i think they made a good choice!

    bucks got destroyed and now face the decision of whether to go philly's route or resign ellis and jennings and possibly get shallacked in the first round for the next five years! yay?!

    how's being moderately good forever worked for atlanta?

    how does squeaking in next year move this team any further along? it moves us further back, as teams behind us get better.
    Also it's hard to accept anything you say SINCE YOU THINK THE PROMISED LAND IS THE 2ND ROUND.

    Playoffs is not the promised land. Finals is, at the very least, or strictly speaking, just being a champion. Playoffs is just when the real season starts.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Also it's hard to accept anything you say SINCE YOU THINK THE PROMISED LAND IS THE 2ND ROUND.
    was being facetious hoss because the second round is the ceiling of this squad and would get many ppl plenty excited when in fact it would be FOOL'S GOLD.

    would also take a season ending injury to a franchise player of a far superior team, just like it did for philly.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    I feel like the bottom seeds are doing the right thing by tanking. You don't have to get the top pick in this years lottery to end up a winner. Plenty of good players in the draft this year. Only problem is that so many other teams are tanking this year as well that it makes things tough to get into the top 5 even.

    While I understand the rationale for trying to make the playoffs I don't agree with limping in and getting bounced in the first round. It's the same treadmill story. For this reason I feel like teams like Charlotte, Cleavland, Wizards etc.. that have been in the top 5 of the lotto the past few years are doing things the right way. "Get busy living or get busy dying", but don't waste your time in the middle.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I feel like the bottom seeds are doing the right thing by tanking. You don't have to get the top pick in this years lottery to end up a winner. Plenty of good players in the draft this year. Only problem is that so many other teams are tanking this year as well that it makes things tough to get into the top 5 even.

    While I understand the rationale for trying to make the playoffs I don't agree with limping in and getting bounced in the first round. It's the same treadmill story. For this reason I feel like teams like Charlotte, Cleavland, Wizards etc.. that have been in the top 5 of the lotto the past few years are doing things the right way. "Get busy living or get busy dying", but don't waste your time in the middle.
    I can't remember a season with this many teams looking to tank. Those games down the stretch are going to be scrutinized by the league to make sure that no shenanigans are being had. This could get silly.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I can't remember a season with this many teams looking to tank. Those games down the stretch are going to be scrutinized by the league to make sure that no shenanigans are being had. This could get silly.



    It is going to be insane. Some epsn heads were saying the other day that if the Lakers don't get dwight, they let kobe take his time coming back from injury, they trade gasol and tank away. If the Lakers and Celtics are both tanking, I think we can tolerate the stench of doing it too. Playoffs made by not looking at the future are fool's gold as all those other teams are stocking up for a run we won't be ready for

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