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  • #16
    draftedraptor wrote: View Post
    I didn't call Drummond elite. I said he displays the qualities to be an elite center in the nba based on the small sample size. remember he is only 19.

    You are quick to dismiss me as a casual fan yet you go on about Val's offense proving my original point - overrated around here. I don't see any of those offensive skills in Val. right now he is using his motor to get rubbish baskters. I do admit he can develop a post-game if he works on it.
    You're overrating Drummond big time and you're underrating Big V. Call me when Drummond works Tim Duncan like Valanciunas did this season

    Comment


    • #17
      I would agree that people do over rate JV here. It's like he can't do wrong. When his not getting playing its the coaches fault. Instead of him just being ready and being a liability on defense. I do agree that he has a lot of potential.

      Andre Drummond is a freak of nature though. His potential has no ceiling. His the only young C with the potential to actually surpas D12
      @Chr1st1anL

      Comment


      • #18
        draftedraptor wrote: View Post
        JV is overrated around here. He has shown average offense and defense with excellent motor thus far. I havent seen anything special from him yet. Drummond on the other hand is looking every bit the elite defensive C he can be. Val's upside is deandre jordan and he will have to start working hard to get there or anywhere higher.
        Wtf? Deandre Jordan? are we watching the same Valanciunas?

        Comment


        • #19
          stretch wrote: View Post
          We tend to overvalue JV here.
          Are you saying some of us don't have realistic expectations for our lord and savior Jonas Christ?
          For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

          Comment


          • #20
            draftedraptor wrote: View Post
            JV is overrated around here. He has shown average offense and defense with excellent motor thus far. I havent seen anything special from him yet. Drummond on the other hand is looking every bit the elite defensive C he can be. Val's upside is deandre jordan and he will have to start working hard to get there or anywhere higher.
            go home you're drunk.

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            • #21
              draftedraptor wrote: View Post
              JV is overrated around here. He has shown average offense and defense with excellent motor thus far. I havent seen anything special from him yet. Drummond on the other hand is looking every bit the elite defensive C he can be. Val's upside is deandre jordan and he will have to start working hard to get there or anywhere higher.
              does this count as an infraction? do I click the infraction button on this...help me out fellow mods :P
              For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

              Comment


              • #22
                Make him apologize for that Deandre Jordan comment..

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                • #23
                  How about we stop comparing Drummond and JV, and imagine if we drafted him instead of Ross.

                  A Drummond-JV frontcourt.

                  Heaven.
                  Twitter - @thekid_it

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    There are huge difference between Val and Drummond. Here's my personal comparison:

                    Note: This is possibly slightly skewed mainly because JV averages slightly more minutes than Drummond

                    1. Offense - Val has a much better offensive game. According to Basketball Reference, JV has a variety of types of shoots that he shoots with decent accuracy. Here are the follow percentages for each shooting type: dunk (92.9% on 56 attempts), post hook shot (59.2% at 71 attempts), jump shot (39.7% at 126 attempts), lay-up (52.7% at 91 attempts) and tip shot (52.2% at 23 attempts). Andre on the other hand isn't as proficient at post moves and shoots as JV: dunk (91.2% on 145 attempts), post hook shot (18.2% at 11 attempts), jump shot (22.9% at 48 attempts), lay-up (48.8% at 125 attempts) and tip shot (60.6% at 33 attempts). As you can see, JV has an overall more diverse offensive game which would explain why his post hook shot, jump shot and layup percentage is much higher than Drummond's. Andre relies more on his athleticism to score which explains why his tip shot percentage is much higher than Valanciunas'. To look at this another way, we can look at based on the distance at which they scored. Most dunks, layups and tip shots would be points at the rim while hook shots, and jump shots can vary in distance from 3 feet to the three point line. If you look at Dummond, out of his 342 attempts, most of his shots are at the rim. In fact, according to Basketball Reference, he attempts 279 shots at the rim (68.8%) and only attempts 63 shots at 3 feet to the three point line (25.4%). Because of his lack of offensive game and athleticism, he has to live under the rim. JV, however, only attempts 165 shots at the rim (69.7%) and 202 shots at 3 feet to the three point line (44.1%). So it's pretty obvious that JV is WAY more talented offensively.

                    2. Defense - Defense is much harder to judge solely based on stats. Let's just look at blocks, and steal per 36 minutes to lessen the skew of the extra minutes. As for blocks, Drummond has more blocks than JV. Per 36 minutes, Drummond averages 2.8 blocks and JV averages 1.9 blocks. This is easily explained by Drummond's extra athleticism. As for steals, Drummond also has more steals than JV. Per 36 minutes, Drummond averages 1.7 steals and JV averages 0.4 steals. Of course, like I said, these don't necessarily say how good a player is defensively, but Drummond is a much better defensive player than JV. This can be explained by Drummond's extra athleticism and added strength. Drummond is an overall much stronger player weighing in at 270 lb and JV weighing in at only 231 lb.

                    3. Potential - This is the big question about these two players. One key thing to keep in mind is that JV is already 21 years old and Drummond is only 19 years old. Therefore, Andre has much more time to grow and improve. What does Drummond have to improve upon? Mostly his offensive game. Free throws is one of them and it's something that's not as easy to improve upon. Take for example, all star center Dwight Howard. When Howard started the NBA, his FT% was 67.1% but since then he hasn't improved upon it since. His averaged FT% is 57.7% and it his FT% hasn't been higher since his rookie season. I don't see Drummond improving significantly at his free throws. As for his offensive game in general, he still has time to grow. It's definitely something that can be improved upon. He is still 19 and this is why most people say that Drummond has way more potential than JV. JV, on the other hand, already has a polished offensive game and free throws. It's still something still needs to be improved, but the improvements will come easier to him than Drummond. Defense is where JV needs to improve. So to conclude, JV and Drummond are pretty different centers. JV is much more offensive oriented center that needs to improve upon defense and building up strength. Drummond is much more athletic defensive center that needs to improve upon his offensive game. Both are potentially future all-star centers. I would say that JV has a better chance at being one only because you are voted into the All-Star mostly based on your offensive production rather than your defensive presence.

                    PS. Sorry for the really long post. Got kinda carried away hehe xD

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      draftedraptor wrote: View Post
                      JV is overrated around here. He has shown average offense and defense with excellent motor thus far. I havent seen anything special from him yet. Drummond on the other hand is looking every bit the elite defensive C he can be. Val's upside is deandre jordan and he will have to start working hard to get there or anywhere higher.
                      LOL you trolling? I don't disagree with the point that JV gets overrated sometimes on RR, but saying Val's upside is DeAndre Jordan is asinine. In his first year JV averaged 9pts 6rbds 1.3blks playing 24min a game. DJ last season, 9pts 7rbds 1.4blks in 24min. However JV is shooting close to 80% at the line and making twice as many FTs a game (DJ shoots a sad 42% in his 3 years in the nba). That's why we can close games with JV whereas DJ is on the bench. DJ is playing with Blake Griffin so his rebounding and points production may be affected, but JV was playing with a real productive Amir most of the year.

                      If you don't want to talk stats, even the eye test shows JV is already more polished offensively. JV can hit the mid range jumper which DJ will probably never be able to do. And he also has actual post up moves, whereas something like 95% of DJ's baskets are either dunks or put backs. DJ has the edge in defense so far due to his size and athleticism, but JV is also 4 years younger. Once JV gets acclimated to the NBA, improves his communication skills, and packs on some pounds there's no reason not to believe he won't reach DJ's defensive ability. He has a higher motor, good length, and has shown great lateral quickness (needs to improve on reading plays and rotation timing).

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
                        There are huge difference between Val and Drummond. Here's my personal comparison:

                        Note: This is possibly slightly skewed mainly because JV averages slightly more minutes than Drummond

                        1. Offense - Val has a much better offensive game. According to Basketball Reference, JV has a variety of types of shoots that he shoots with decent accuracy. Here are the follow percentages for each shooting type: dunk (92.9% on 56 attempts), post hook shot (59.2% at 71 attempts), jump shot (39.7% at 126 attempts), lay-up (52.7% at 91 attempts) and tip shot (52.2% at 23 attempts). Andre on the other hand isn't as proficient at post moves and shoots as JV: dunk (91.2% on 145 attempts), post hook shot (18.2% at 11 attempts), jump shot (22.9% at 48 attempts), lay-up (48.8% at 125 attempts) and tip shot (60.6% at 33 attempts). As you can see, JV has an overall more diverse offensive game which would explain why his post hook shot, jump shot and layup percentage is much higher than Drummond's. Andre relies more on his athleticism to score which explains why his tip shot percentage is much higher than Valanciunas'. To look at this another way, we can look at based on the distance at which they scored. Most dunks, layups and tip shots would be points at the rim while hook shots, and jump shots can vary in distance from 3 feet to the three point line. If you look at Dummond, out of his 342 attempts, most of his shots are at the rim. In fact, according to Basketball Reference, he attempts 279 shots at the rim (68.8%) and only attempts 63 shots at 3 feet to the three point line (25.4%). Because of his lack of offensive game and athleticism, he has to live under the rim. JV, however, only attempts 165 shots at the rim (69.7%) and 202 shots at 3 feet to the three point line (44.1%). So it's pretty obvious that JV is WAY more talented offensively.

                        2. Defense - Defense is much harder to judge solely based on stats. Let's just look at blocks, and steal per 36 minutes to lessen the skew of the extra minutes. As for blocks, Drummond has more blocks than JV. Per 36 minutes, Drummond averages 2.8 blocks and JV averages 1.9 blocks. This is easily explained by Drummond's extra athleticism. As for steals, Drummond also has more steals than JV. Per 36 minutes, Drummond averages 1.7 steals and JV averages 0.4 steals. Of course, like I said, these don't necessarily say how good a player is defensively, but Drummond is a much better defensive player than JV. This can be explained by Drummond's extra athleticism and added strength. Drummond is an overall much stronger player weighing in at 270 lb and JV weighing in at only 231 lb.

                        3. Potential - This is the big question about these two players. One key thing to keep in mind is that JV is already 21 years old and Drummond is only 19 years old. Therefore, Andre has much more time to grow and improve. What does Drummond have to improve upon? Mostly his offensive game. Free throws is one of them and it's something that's not as easy to improve upon. Take for example, all star center Dwight Howard. When Howard started the NBA, his FT% was 67.1% but since then he hasn't improved upon it since. His averaged FT% is 57.7% and it his FT% hasn't been higher since his rookie season. I don't see Drummond improving significantly at his free throws. As for his offensive game in general, he still has time to grow. It's definitely something that can be improved upon. He is still 19 and this is why most people say that Drummond has way more potential than JV. JV, on the other hand, already has a polished offensive game and free throws. It's still something still needs to be improved, but the improvements will come easier to him than Drummond. Defense is where JV needs to improve. So to conclude, JV and Drummond are pretty different centers. JV is much more offensive oriented center that needs to improve upon defense and building up strength. Drummond is much more athletic defensive center that needs to improve upon his offensive game. Both are potentially future all-star centers. I would say that JV has a better chance at being one only because you are voted into the All-Star mostly based on your offensive production rather than your defensive presence.

                        PS. Sorry for the really long post. Got kinda carried away hehe xD
                        Good post and thanks for doing the work.

                        7 feet and 270 pounds. Thats sick. I was 5 11 and 140 pounds at 19 and hoped to one day grow out of premature ejaculation

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                          I was 5 11 and 140 pounds at 19 and hoped to one day grow out of premature ejaculation
                          You're my doppelganger!
                          "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                          "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                          "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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                          • #28
                            Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
                            There are huge difference between Val and Drummond. Here's my personal comparison:

                            Note: This is possibly slightly skewed mainly because JV averages slightly more minutes than Drummond

                            1. Offense - Val has a much better offensive game. According to Basketball Reference, JV has a variety of types of shoots that he shoots with decent accuracy. Here are the follow percentages for each shooting type: dunk (92.9% on 56 attempts), post hook shot (59.2% at 71 attempts), jump shot (39.7% at 126 attempts), lay-up (52.7% at 91 attempts) and tip shot (52.2% at 23 attempts). Andre on the other hand isn't as proficient at post moves and shoots as JV: dunk (91.2% on 145 attempts), post hook shot (18.2% at 11 attempts), jump shot (22.9% at 48 attempts), lay-up (48.8% at 125 attempts) and tip shot (60.6% at 33 attempts). As you can see, JV has an overall more diverse offensive game which would explain why his post hook shot, jump shot and layup percentage is much higher than Drummond's. Andre relies more on his athleticism to score which explains why his tip shot percentage is much higher than Valanciunas'. To look at this another way, we can look at based on the distance at which they scored. Most dunks, layups and tip shots would be points at the rim while hook shots, and jump shots can vary in distance from 3 feet to the three point line. If you look at Dummond, out of his 342 attempts, most of his shots are at the rim. In fact, according to Basketball Reference, he attempts 279 shots at the rim (68.8%) and only attempts 63 shots at 3 feet to the three point line (25.4%). Because of his lack of offensive game and athleticism, he has to live under the rim. JV, however, only attempts 165 shots at the rim (69.7%) and 202 shots at 3 feet to the three point line (44.1%). So it's pretty obvious that JV is WAY more talented offensively.

                            2. Defense - Defense is much harder to judge solely based on stats. Let's just look at blocks, and steal per 36 minutes to lessen the skew of the extra minutes. As for blocks, Drummond has more blocks than JV. Per 36 minutes, Drummond averages 2.8 blocks and JV averages 1.9 blocks. This is easily explained by Drummond's extra athleticism. As for steals, Drummond also has more steals than JV. Per 36 minutes, Drummond averages 1.7 steals and JV averages 0.4 steals. Of course, like I said, these don't necessarily say how good a player is defensively, but Drummond is a much better defensive player than JV. This can be explained by Drummond's extra athleticism and added strength. Drummond is an overall much stronger player weighing in at 270 lb and JV weighing in at only 231 lb.

                            3. Potential - This is the big question about these two players. One key thing to keep in mind is that JV is already 21 years old and Drummond is only 19 years old. Therefore, Andre has much more time to grow and improve. What does Drummond have to improve upon? Mostly his offensive game. Free throws is one of them and it's something that's not as easy to improve upon. Take for example, all star center Dwight Howard. When Howard started the NBA, his FT% was 67.1% but since then he hasn't improved upon it since. His averaged FT% is 57.7% and it his FT% hasn't been higher since his rookie season. I don't see Drummond improving significantly at his free throws. As for his offensive game in general, he still has time to grow. It's definitely something that can be improved upon. He is still 19 and this is why most people say that Drummond has way more potential than JV. JV, on the other hand, already has a polished offensive game and free throws. It's still something still needs to be improved, but the improvements will come easier to him than Drummond. Defense is where JV needs to improve. So to conclude, JV and Drummond are pretty different centers. JV is much more offensive oriented center that needs to improve upon defense and building up strength. Drummond is much more athletic defensive center that needs to improve upon his offensive game. Both are potentially future all-star centers. I would say that JV has a better chance at being one only because you are voted into the All-Star mostly based on your offensive production rather than your defensive presence.

                            PS. Sorry for the really long post. Got kinda carried away hehe xD
                            good post. As you mentioned JV got more minutes. He also did not have to share the front court with a go-to-guy like Monroe.

                            I still stand by what I said - Val is not jesus christ as it is being made out here. I know it is hard for fanboys and they need Val to be their savior after years of hoping bargnani will turn out to be a franchise center. DeAndre Jordan with post-moves is a big ceiling and Val would have done really well to get there. Remember DeAndre is a starting center , only 24 and averages almost a double-double.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              draftedraptor wrote: View Post
                              I still stand by what I said - Val is not jesus christ as it is being made out here. I know it is hard for fanboys and they need Val to be their savior after years of hoping bargnani will turn out to be a franchise center. DeAndre Jordan with post-moves is a big ceiling and Val would have done really well to get there. Remember DeAndre is a starting center , only 24 and averages almost a double-double.
                              Per 36 minutes, Jonas averaged 13/9 last season; it's fair to say he will likely average a double-double this year.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
                                There are huge difference between Val and Drummond. Here's my personal comparison:

                                Note: This is possibly slightly skewed mainly because JV averages slightly more minutes than Drummond

                                1. Offense - Val has a much better offensive game. According to Basketball Reference, JV has a variety of types of shoots that he shoots with decent accuracy. Here are the follow percentages for each shooting type: dunk (92.9% on 56 attempts), post hook shot (59.2% at 71 attempts), jump shot (39.7% at 126 attempts), lay-up (52.7% at 91 attempts) and tip shot (52.2% at 23 attempts). Andre on the other hand isn't as proficient at post moves and shoots as JV: dunk (91.2% on 145 attempts), post hook shot (18.2% at 11 attempts), jump shot (22.9% at 48 attempts), lay-up (48.8% at 125 attempts) and tip shot (60.6% at 33 attempts). As you can see, JV has an overall more diverse offensive game which would explain why his post hook shot, jump shot and layup percentage is much higher than Drummond's. Andre relies more on his athleticism to score which explains why his tip shot percentage is much higher than Valanciunas'. To look at this another way, we can look at based on the distance at which they scored. Most dunks, layups and tip shots would be points at the rim while hook shots, and jump shots can vary in distance from 3 feet to the three point line. If you look at Dummond, out of his 342 attempts, most of his shots are at the rim. In fact, according to Basketball Reference, he attempts 279 shots at the rim (68.8%) and only attempts 63 shots at 3 feet to the three point line (25.4%). Because of his lack of offensive game and athleticism, he has to live under the rim. JV, however, only attempts 165 shots at the rim (69.7%) and 202 shots at 3 feet to the three point line (44.1%). So it's pretty obvious that JV is WAY more talented offensively.

                                2. Defense - Defense is much harder to judge solely based on stats. Let's just look at blocks, and steal per 36 minutes to lessen the skew of the extra minutes. As for blocks, Drummond has more blocks than JV. Per 36 minutes, Drummond averages 2.8 blocks and JV averages 1.9 blocks. This is easily explained by Drummond's extra athleticism. As for steals, Drummond also has more steals than JV. Per 36 minutes, Drummond averages 1.7 steals and JV averages 0.4 steals. Of course, like I said, these don't necessarily say how good a player is defensively, but Drummond is a much better defensive player than JV. This can be explained by Drummond's extra athleticism and added strength. Drummond is an overall much stronger player weighing in at 270 lb and JV weighing in at only 231 lb.

                                3. Potential - This is the big question about these two players. One key thing to keep in mind is that JV is already 21 years old and Drummond is only 19 years old. Therefore, Andre has much more time to grow and improve. What does Drummond have to improve upon? Mostly his offensive game. Free throws is one of them and it's something that's not as easy to improve upon. Take for example, all star center Dwight Howard. When Howard started the NBA, his FT% was 67.1% but since then he hasn't improved upon it since. His averaged FT% is 57.7% and it his FT% hasn't been higher since his rookie season. I don't see Drummond improving significantly at his free throws. As for his offensive game in general, he still has time to grow. It's definitely something that can be improved upon. He is still 19 and this is why most people say that Drummond has way more potential than JV. JV, on the other hand, already has a polished offensive game and free throws. It's still something still needs to be improved, but the improvements will come easier to him than Drummond. Defense is where JV needs to improve. So to conclude, JV and Drummond are pretty different centers. JV is much more offensive oriented center that needs to improve upon defense and building up strength. Drummond is much more athletic defensive center that needs to improve upon his offensive game. Both are potentially future all-star centers. I would say that JV has a better chance at being one only because you are voted into the All-Star mostly based on your offensive production rather than your defensive presence.

                                PS. Sorry for the really long post. Got kinda carried away hehe xD
                                regarding defense, shot blocking and steals don't measure a players ability to defend. serge ibaka is an excellent shot blocker, but he is a poor post defender (memphis playoff series). jv may not be as athletic/strong as drummond, but jv has the iq and this is due to his experience representing his country and playing in europe. and when jonas and drummond went head to head, jonas rolled over drummond in the paint.

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