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  • #31
    2KJ wrote: View Post
    regarding defense, shot blocking and steals don't measure a players ability to defend. serge ibaka is an excellent shot blocker, but he is a poor post defender (memphis playoff series). jv may not be as athletic/strong as drummond, but jv has the iq and this is due to his experience representing his country and playing in europe. and when jonas and drummond went head to head, jonas rolled over drummond in the paint.
    And pretty much owned Monroe too. This is what I don't get. We saw these teams play multiple times. We saw 2 head-to-head (to-head) matchups late in the year, when both JV and Drummond were playing well after coming back from their respective injuries. In both those games, JV was hands down the best big on the floor in both games, and the only guy out of he, Drummond, and Monroe who was a constant threat on both ends of the court, and also the most active.

    I also think it's funny that someone compared JV to DeAndre Jordan, when in fact, Andre Drummond is exactly the same type of player, just with more weight. Defensive Cs who can't hit a FT or a FG from 6-8 ft out. Very physically gifted and can dominate a game in that way, but limited skill set and average ball IQ.

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    • #32
      Fun fact - Greg Monroe scored more points against the Raptors in their 4 match up's than he did against any other team in the NBA last season, 89 points. He also averaged 4 assists and 9.5 rebs/per game. He pretty much owned the Raptors and anyone guarding him, so it's silly to compare JV to him right now. If there is any chance at all of pairing JV with Monroe I'd be all over it.

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      • #33
        draftedraptor wrote: View Post
        good post. As you mentioned JV got more minutes. He also did not have to share the front court with a go-to-guy like Monroe.

        I still stand by what I said - Val is not jesus christ as it is being made out here.
        This I agree with. It's the only thing I agree with though. Guys like DeAndre and Drummond can't even be put in the same category as Jonas.
        Attitude Is A Choice.

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        • #34
          Mediumcore wrote: View Post
          Fun fact - Greg Monroe scored more points against the Raptors in their 4 match up's than he did against any other team in the NBA last season, 89 points. He also averaged 4 assists and 9.5 rebs/per game. He pretty much owned the Raptors and anyone guarding him, so it's silly to compare JV to him right now. If there is any chance at all of pairing JV with Monroe I'd be all over it.
          Well I was focusing on the last 2 games. Because JV was a rookie, so obviously he still has a lot of growing to do. But even after his injury, he was a much different player in the last 2 months than the first 2 months of the season. And yes, I realize Monroe had a good game in that last game, at least scoring-wise.

          Monroe is a better offensive player, and at the moment, a better player in general. I also see Monroe as a guy who's already stalled in his development. Hasn't added what he needs to defensively, and other than passing, his offensive improvement hasn't taken another step forward. Right now he's a guy that can dominate offensively, but doesn't consistently, and is rarely impressive on D.

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          • #35
            2KJ wrote: View Post
            regarding defense, shot blocking and steals don't measure a players ability to defend. serge ibaka is an excellent shot blocker, but he is a poor post defender (memphis playoff series). jv may not be as athletic/strong as drummond, but jv has the iq and this is due to his experience representing his country and playing in europe. and when jonas and drummond went head to head, jonas rolled over drummond in the paint.
            Like I have stated. Stats like blocks and steals don't tell the whole story. Defense is better evaluated by watching hours and hours of film. Defense isn't as easy to evaluate when you don't have the resources like very advanced stats and film, so blocks and steals are all I can really base defense on even though it doesn't paint the whole picture. Drummond's athleticism doesn't necessary mean that he will play good defense. Like you said, player with less athleticism use their basketball IQ to help them play defense, but having athleticism does give Drummond an advantage on defense that JV doesn't have. As for Jonas rolling over Drummond head-to-head, that's not 100% true. Both player have had their share of better games between the two. For example, let's look at the TOR-DET game on November 23, 2012, JV had 9 points (50% shooting), 6 rebounds, and 2 blocks in 31 minutes. Drummond had 13 points (54.5% shooting), 13 rebounds, 0 blocks, and 2 steals in 24 minutes. As you can see, Drummond played a much more efficient game than JV. Here's another example. Let's look at the TOR-DET game on April 1, 2013, JV had 17 points (57.1% shooting), 6 rebounds, and 5 blocks in 37 minutes. Drummond had 4 points (40% shooting), 4 rebounds, and 0 blocks/steals in 17 minutes. JV had a much better game than Drummond. Of course, there are too many factors to consider like whether they were actually going head-to-head, and the amount of minutes played being different. My point being that both players have had their fair share of good games against each other and also that there is too small of a sample size to really say who would beat who head on.

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            • #36
              draftedraptor wrote: View Post
              good post. As you mentioned JV got more minutes. He also did not have to share the front court with a go-to-guy like Monroe.

              I still stand by what I said - Val is not jesus christ as it is being made out here. I know it is hard for fanboys and they need Val to be their savior after years of hoping bargnani will turn out to be a franchise center. DeAndre Jordan with post-moves is a big ceiling and Val would have done really well to get there. Remember DeAndre is a starting center , only 24 and averages almost a double-double.
              I never really said that Val is the messiah that will save the Raptors. I don't think he's the "LeBron" of our team. I do, however, think that he's definitely talented and a key piece in the Raptors' future. As for Jordan, any athletic center with post-moves will have big ceiling and better potential, but that's the problem with the word and concept of potential. A player can have all the potential in the world, but it doesn't really mean anything if they never meet that said potential. Take Jordan for example. People are always saying how he has so much potential to be a top center in the league. He's athletic; he can rebounds; he can block shots and play defense. But so far, he hasn't lived up to that potential where he can be one of the more dominate centers in the NBA. He has shown spurts where he lives up to the potential, but it's not consistently there. Given more minutes, he's a 10+ points and 10+ rebounds player. Like I said, we can talk potential all we want, but whether he actually meets that potential or not depends on Jordan. That's why I don't personally like comparing players based on potential!
              Last edited by Blacklash2k4; Mon Jul 8, 2013, 01:07 PM.

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              • #37
                Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
                Like I have stated. Stats like blocks and steals don't tell the whole story. Defense is better evaluated by watching hours and hours of film. Defense isn't as easy to evaluate when you don't have the resources like very advanced stats and film, so blocks and steals are all I can really base defense on even though it doesn't paint the whole picture. Drummond's athleticism doesn't necessary mean that he will play good defense. Like you said, player with less athleticism use their basketball IQ to help them play defense, but having athleticism does give Drummond an advantage on defense that JV doesn't have. As for Jonas rolling over Drummond head-to-head, that's not 100% true. Both player have had their share of better games between the two. For example, let's look at the TOR-DET game on November 23, 2012, JV had 9 points (50% shooting), 6 rebounds, and 2 blocks in 31 minutes. Drummond had 13 points (54.5% shooting), 13 rebounds, 0 blocks, and 2 steals in 24 minutes. As you can see, Drummond played a much more efficient game than JV. Here's another example. Let's look at the TOR-DET game on April 1, 2013, JV had 17 points (57.1% shooting), 6 rebounds, and 5 blocks in 37 minutes. Drummond had 4 points (40% shooting), 4 rebounds, and 0 blocks/steals in 17 minutes. JV had a much better game than Drummond. Of course, there are too many factors to consider like whether they were actually going head-to-head, and the amount of minutes played being different. My point being that both players have had their fair share of good games against each other and also that there is too small of a sample size to really say who would beat who head on.
                As with most of the season, Drummond got his impressive stats against 2nd stringers most of the time. So many people all gaga over Drummond and his stats, but I'll hold off on anointing him as anything until he plays against starters consistently.

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                • #38
                  white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                  Well I was focusing on the last 2 games. Because JV was a rookie, so obviously he still has a lot of growing to do. But even after his injury, he was a much different player in the last 2 months than the first 2 months of the season. And yes, I realize Monroe had a good game in that last game, at least scoring-wise.

                  Monroe is a better offensive player, and at the moment, a better player in general. I also see Monroe as a guy who's already stalled in his development. Hasn't added what he needs to defensively, and other than passing, his offensive improvement hasn't taken another step forward. Right now he's a guy that can dominate offensively, but doesn't consistently, and is rarely impressive on D.
                  I'm kind of surprised that several people are saying he has reached his ceiling considering he's only been in the league 3 seasons and is already averaging 16 and 10 (almost). It's definitely not his ceiling but if it was that still pretty damn good. He also averages a steal a game. I'd take him over Drummond any day of the week.

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                  • #39
                    p00ka wrote: View Post
                    As with most of the season, Drummond got his impressive stats against 2nd stringers most of the time. So many people all gaga over Drummond and his stats, but I'll hold off on anointing him as anything until he plays against starters consistently.
                    True! I didn't factor that into my thoughts. JV did start most of his games. To be more specific, 57 out of his 62 games played. If I remember, he only didn't start in those 5 games due to his injury. And you are right. Drummond didn't start in most of his games. He only started 10 games out of his 60 games played. He did play with most of 2nd string centers. However, I still think he has talent. People will always go gaga over athletic tall centers who can rebounds, play defense and block shots mainly because everyone hopes that if they develop an offensive game, they will be a dominate center in the NBA.

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                    • #40
                      Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                      This I agree with. It's the only thing I agree with though. Guys like DeAndre and Drummond can't even be put in the same category as Jonas.
                      DeAndre yes,

                      Drummond.......we don't know yet. His ceiling could be Shaq for all we know. His shooting numbers aren't good but they were significantly better than his shooting numbers in college. Who knows what he can do with proper coaching.

                      but hey.....we got the slam dunk champion............oh god we're gonna be regretting that pick for 15 years

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                      • #41
                        Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                        I'm kind of surprised that several people are saying he has reached his ceiling considering he's only been in the league 3 seasons and is already averaging 16 and 10 (almost). It's definitely not his ceiling but if it was that still pretty damn good. He also averages a steal a game. I'd take him over Drummond any day of the week.
                        I didn't say he hit his ceiling, but that his development stalled. There's definitely more talent there to be harnessed. But also don't forget he's averaging 16 as the go-to guy for Detroit. That's hardly astounding. He has a high usage rate. He doesn't score that efficiently (despite having nice moves). He hasn't signficantly improved defensively. The only stat that has shown noticeable improvement each of his years is assists (which is great for a big to have).

                        I'm not saying Monroe is a bad player, but he's hardly a savior either. I don't want him on my team that much. Monroe is a guy like Boozer or Bargs (or insert bad defensive F/C here). He can be on a good team, but he's a guy you'll have to ask the rest of the team to cover his weaknesses as best they can....just my opinion.

                        I said from when the Detroit-Rudy Gay trade rumour came out, I would not do a deal with them unless they gave us KCP, probably also Mitchell, and possibly a 1st rd pick....even if Monroe was included. Monroe does not get a Gay trade done for me. DeMar, maybe, but I don't think Detroit would do that.

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                        • #42
                          I still don't understand how the Raptors could have utilized both JV and Drummond. They are both centers. I would not want JV as a PF, and if Drummond just got backup minutes, what's the point?

                          Drummond was the better asset, and if it was simply so that we could flip him for something better then yeah he would have been the better pick. But if the plan was to keep Drummond on the Raptors then I just don't see how it would fit.

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                          • #43
                            planetmars wrote: View Post
                            I still don't understand how the Raptors could have utilized both JV and Drummond. They are both centers. I would not want JV as a PF, and if Drummond just got backup minutes, what's the point?

                            Drummond was the better asset, and if it was simply so that we could flip him for something better then yeah he would have been the better pick. But if the plan was to keep Drummond on the Raptors then I just don't see how it would fit.
                            There are like 5 legit centres in the league, having 2 and the luxury to trade one for.........oh I don't know, let's say James Harden if the opportunity presented itself is not the worst thing in the world.

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                            • #44
                              Letter N wrote: View Post
                              There are like 5 legit centres in the league, having 2 and the luxury to trade one for.........oh I don't know, let's say James Harden if the opportunity presented itself is not the worst thing in the world.
                              Right.. so if the plan was to acquire him just so that you could trade him later then it would make perfect sense to me too. However if the plan was to keep him on the roster with JV then it wouldn't make sense to me.

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                              • #45
                                if we decided our focal point was a Monroe/JV pairing then we would need to surround them with 35 - 40% 3pt shooters.

                                Gay already tried to play with two dominant bigs....didn't work out so well.
                                For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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