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Thread: Changing Circumstances: A Tanking Argument

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Default Changing Circumstances: A Tanking Argument

    Preface: I am not a fan of tanking in the least. I think it cheapens the sport and I wish it wasn't an option. However, recent events have forced me to re-examine my view of this.

    Part A: No Tank You

    Cleveland: is looking to acquire Andrew Bynum and other moves show this is a team that is interested in winning now. Their GM has announced that they do not want to be in the lottery any longer.

    Boston: Has sent strong signals that they are not interested in tanking but rather retooling around Rondo/Bradley/Green/Sully/

    Bucks: Not interested in tanking. They are looking to acquire Teague or keep Jennings. Signed OJ Mayo and they still have Ilyasova and Sanders to provide an inside out punch from the 4/5 position.

    Atlanta: Does not appear interested in the tank is going out of its way to gain talent...and until they drop Horford no tank is happening there. Oh and the adding of Millsap suggests more second round playoff exits for Atlanta

    Washington: Wall/Beal/Porter is a young group that will start climbing the ladder this season, tanking will not sit well with a soon to be extended John Wall.

    Portland: Will be taking a significant stride this year as their PG takes another leap.

    Hornets: with a healthy AD, and adding all Jrue Holiday no longer want a piece of this sweet sweet 14 draft class.

    Detroit: When they signed Josh Smith it was a pretty good indication that they were done losing. They are now looking to climb the ladder as well

    Charlotte: signing Al Jefferson has Charlotte primed to move into the dreaded 7 - 11 category, unless they follow that up with other moves.

    Part B - Fuggedaboutit

    The following teams are not even remotely interested in tanking

    Lakers, Clippers, Houston, Miami, New York, Brooklyn, Indiana, Chicago, Golden State, Memphis, San Antonio, OKC, Minnesota.

    Part C - This fence is making my balls hurt

    The following are teams that see the writing on the wall and finally blow it up and tank.

    Denver: They lost...Iggy, Masai, Karl...among others... They have the pieces right now to be another 7 - 11 team. I think they might be taking the view that the 7 - 11 is a ladder and not a well. could go either way.

    Dallas: For the second straight year they have failed to sign a single big name. Dirk is getting older and Calderon is their big FA get. Word is they are still on the hunt, and so I will not place them in the tank train yet but they gotta pull off something and soon or else it becomes a very real possibility.


    Part D - Organic Growth Year (We love that phrase don't we fellas?)

    Orlando, with Tobias Harris, Oladipo, Nicholson, and Vuvecic they look like a promising team on the rise. I think they truly are looking to get better this year and they have four very good pieces to do it with. I expect them to be a 7 - 11 team as well (probably closer to 11) but where as Denver might be looking down a well, Orlando does appear to have a ladder in front of them.

    Utah: Out of the shadow of Millsap and Jefferson, Kanter and Favors now have a big chance to shine. Much like Orlando though this is going to be a step up the ladder kind of year. I see them having about the same result as Portland did last year with a young talented PG learning (fucking up a lot) his way into the league. This will likely put them as high as ten and low as 12 in the west.

    Sacramento: substitute names with Orlando and same deal. 7 - 11 will be a ladder for them. They have a serious head coach now and it they will competitive. I'd say they land right outside the playoffs in 10th

    Part E - Enemy Armor Incoming! Tank Alert

    Philly: The only team in the league that I can see is so obviously tanking it hurts, is Philadephia. Traded an All Star for a guy coming off ANOTHER ACL injury. He does have huge upside but likely won't start getting noticed until the end of the season.

    Part F - I Seriously Don't Know What The Fuck They Are Doing

    Phoenix - ?????????????? retankibuilding? tanktooling? getting worse through the draft? collecting assets? They got Eric Bledsoe to start...maybe...Channing Frye has heart issues, Marcin Gortat doesn't wanna be there. They picked up twins for fun. Kendall Marshall is now a 3rd sting lottery pick??? Someone else can take a crack at this one.

    Which brings us to the Raptors....

    PG - doesn't make team mates better
    SG - Can't shoot 7 million dollar player making 10
    SF - Can't shoot 12 million dollar player making 20
    PF - No back to the basket low post threat - gotta backup wearing a starter hat.
    C - well 1 out of 5 ain't bad!

    Our ceiling with this current group is a second round playoff exit. Which I would love to watch. Believe me...it would be a thing of beauty to watch important games being won. However. If we are only truly racing one team to the bottom, and there are 5 guys that could raise you to another level... I hate to say it but I maybe, just maybe I could be talked into tanking.
    Last edited by thead; Tue Jul 9th, 2013 at 05:29 PM.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    It looks like Monta Ellis is going to either Atlanta, Sacramento or Charlotte... at least one more bubble team will have added another solid piece in an attempt to climb out of the lotterly, further strengthening the pro-tank argument.

    As I posted in another thread yesterday, I agree with you that there are 2 clear-cut cellar-dwelling teams in each conference: Philly, Orlando, Phoenix and Utah (your part D thru F).

    I very much believe MU is reviewing all the roster moves made by the competition, as part of his evaluation of his own team's roster and ideal direction. With all the crazy moves made by several perennial lottery teams, the window to successfully tank/rebuild/retool has definitely opened a little wider, should MU choose to take the Raptors in that direction (good side discussion going on in posts 11-15: http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...-Page-Rip-Off)

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    The key element in trading Gay (because lets be honest, he is the most important if not first domino) is the teams that have gone all in, namely Detroit, Charlotte, and Cleveland.

    Charlotte going for Ellis is telling to what extremes these teams are willing to go to at least make them believe they have a shot at the playoffs.

    There really are only 4 teams (PHX, UTA, PHI, ORL) at this point in time who are likely going to be really bad, know it, and is part of the plan.

    SAC is swinging for the fences along with a number of other bottom feeders.

    If you can get a combination of proven young talent, prospects, picks, and financial relief I think the Raptors are nuts not to at this point in time given the events of last 10 days.

    The threadmill is only getting more crowded.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I have been an anti-tanker for a long time, and even I am starting to lean the other way now. Could we perhaps tell Gay to sit out one season? He can get paid and all, just don't play.. oh and tell Casey that he will be fired if they don't get in the bottom 5 by the end of the year (jk - kinda).

    Here's the tank trade we need to make:

    Gay to Charlotte for Gordon, MKG, Portland or Detroit's 2014 draft pick (whichever is worse).

    Boom!

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    i think you pretty much nailed it, except the part about us being a second round playoff exit potentially.

    thats the part that im not sure i buy that a lot of people here are selling, do you really think that we would be able to go on the road and upset one of the top teams in the east (probably Bulls, Nets , Pacers, or Heat) this year?

    i actually like the guys that are starting but no star, no calls, no wins imo.

    if the team is only good enough to be .500, they wont beat the Heat or the Bulls and and im just not sure where we go from there...

    i would collect assests, clear space and take my roll of the dice (maybe two if we can make a really nice trade...) in the next draft, then go back to building/growing the guys we have... best case we have an elite level canadian star, worst case we have another decent young player on top of any talent we traded for, because i feel that players the calibre of lowry and gay will available to us any time we want in the future if we are willing to take on high priced vets at the expense of cheap youth with upside...

    we might not get a chance to draft a star like this with a young team in this position for another 15 seasons, thats how i feel

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I have been an anti-tanker for a long time, and even I am starting to lean the other way now. Could we perhaps tell Gay to sit out one season? He can get paid and all, just don't play.. oh and tell Casey that he will be fired if they don't get in the bottom 5 by the end of the year (jk - kinda).

    Here's the tank trade we need to make:

    Gay to Charlotte for Gordon, MKG, Portland or Detroit's 2014 draft pick (whichever is worse).

    Boom!
    Since they are after Monta Ellis, how about an offer of Lowry/Gay for Gordon, Kemba, both Portland/Detroit picks, and the right to swap 2014 picks (Toronto and Charlotte).
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I have been an anti-tanker for a long time, and even I am starting to lean the other way now. Could we perhaps tell Gay to sit out one season? He can get paid and all, just don't play.. oh and tell Casey that he will be fired if they don't get in the bottom 5 by the end of the year (jk - kinda).

    Here's the tank trade we need to make:

    Gay to Charlotte for Gordon, MKG, Portland or Detroit's 2014 draft pick (whichever is worse).

    Boom!
    love it... i would be so excited going into next years draft with multiple picks (but i hope you mean which ever pick is better...or higher)

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Since they are after Monta Ellis, how about an offer of Lowry/Gay for Gordon, Kemba, both Portland/Detroit picks, and the right to swap 2014 picks (Toronto and Charlotte).
    also a great move for us...

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote aaron.in.toronto wrote: View Post
    love it... i would be so excited going into next years draft with multiple picks (but i hope you mean which ever pick is better...or higher)
    Yeah, sorry that's what I meant. The 'better' pick.

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I have been an anti-tanker for a long time, and even I am starting to lean the other way now.
    In principle I still am anti-tanking. But if in my estimation 2 - possibly 4 teams are the only ones tanking, I think we need to do everything we can do it HARD once, pick up 3 or 4 really good to elite young guys (including 1 of the 5 supposed franchise guys) and never do it again.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Since they are after Monta Ellis, how about an offer of Lowry/Gay for Gordon, Kemba, both Portland/Detroit picks, and the right to swap 2014 picks (Toronto and Charlotte).
    I think in order to make that work for Charlotte, we're taking back Ramon Sessions rather than Kemba. But I'd still do it in a second.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Sam17's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I have been an anti-tanker for a long time, and even I am starting to lean the other way now. Could we perhaps tell Gay to sit out one season? He can get paid and all, just don't play.. oh and tell Casey that he will be fired if they don't get in the bottom 5 by the end of the year (jk - kinda).

    Here's the tank trade we need to make:

    Gay to Charlotte for Gordon, MKG, Portland or Detroit's 2014 draft pick (whichever is worse).

    Boom!
    I've been an anti-tanker for a long time too but I'm not gunna lie, Marcus Smart, Andrew Wiggins, or Jabari Parker would be really nice

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    I don't think I'll ever be able to buy into a full on tank to purposely be a bad team and lose as many games as possible,,,,,,,,,, to get a high draft pick.

    Some will scoff at what they'll call moralizing, and to that I say,,,,,,,,,, thank you.

    What ever sport I've followed over the years, I've always gravitated to teams that have class, and are smart, which includes intelligent evaluation and patience . This team, as it stands at this moment, has class, and appears to have some new smarts making decisions. Tanking, as described above, and what most are talking about as a "proper rebuild" "tank", comes across as low-life, trying to get there the easy way (whether smart or not), rather than through hard work and/or smarts. Maybe I'm being a tad harsh with the low-life terminology, but purposely being bad is kinda cheating the game, the players, the coaches, and the fans. When I read most suggestions about how to execute this tanking "plan", I want to puke.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Steve Nash had a great quote regarding the Lakers, that I found was applicable to my stance on the matter:
    "We got a lot to play for, to try to make our team into something -- championship or not -- that our fans are proud of and feel good about and can't wait to go see out there on the floor every night and try to beat people," Nash said.
    I think that IF we are a "Second Round Exit" team, then a couple moves should help us get through the next couple rounds.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I don't think I'll ever be able to buy into a full on tank to purposely be a bad team and lose as many games as possible,,,,,,,,,, to get a high draft pick.

    Some will scoff at what they'll call moralizing, and to that I say,,,,,,,,,, thank you.

    What ever sport I've followed over the years, I've always gravitated to teams that have class, and are smart, which includes intelligent evaluation and patience . This team, as it stands at this moment, has class, and appears to have some new smarts making decisions. Tanking, as described above, and what most are talking about as a "proper rebuild" "tank", comes across as low-life, trying to get there the easy way (whether smart or not), rather than through hard work and/or smarts. Maybe I'm being a tad harsh with the low-life terminology, but purposely being bad is kinda cheating the game, the players, the coaches, and the fans. When I read most suggestions about how to execute this tanking "plan", I want to puke.
    In other words. The only GM's who tank are the ones who are lazy and don't want to build their team the smart way. Ujiri is a very smart guy, he's not going to tank. He knows how to build a team by maneuvering and swapping pieces that fit into the puzzle.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    In other words. The only GM's who tank are the ones who are lazy and don't want to build their team the smart way
    Sam Presti and Danny Ainge are pointing at you and laughing.

    It's a given that no team can be successful all the time. The key to longterm high-level success and franchise respect in the NBA is minimizing the "bad time" by using it productively - this is done with quick tanks (as brief as a single season) and smart accumulation of assets in the down years. In essence, you accumulate value on the downward slope so when you start back up you already have momentum.

    Toronto has to minimize its bad time, which means actually directly engaging with it by accumulating value on the downswing. We've never really done it; BC (and Babcock before him, and Thomas before him) always just kept trying to make bad teams incrementally better.

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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Sam Presti and Danny Ainge are pointing at you and laughing.

    It's a given that no team can be successful all the time. The key to longterm high-level success and franchise respect in the NBA is minimizing the "bad time" by using it productively - this is done with quick tanks (as brief as a single season) and smart accumulation of assets in the down years. In essence, you accumulate value on the downward slope so when you start back up you already have momentum.

    Toronto has to minimize its bad time, which means actually directly engaging with it by accumulating value on the downswing. We've never really done it; BC (and Babcock before him, and Thomas before him) always just kept trying to make bad teams incrementally better.
    They both suck ass. Sam Presti got lucky with KD and Danny Ainge has never rebuilt a team via tanking and been successful, try again.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    just to be clear about the second round playoff team comment I made. That is with absolutely EVERYTHING going right for us.

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    They both suck ass. Sam Presti got lucky with KD and Danny Ainge has never rebuilt a team via tanking and been successful, try again.
    tanking remains the best way for long term success. but then you have to go on and draft someone like Duncan/Durant - high character guys with endless potential. There are other ways but they require a lot more luck (The morey method) than drafting someone in lottery after finishing as one of the worst teams.

    The most common objection to tanking is watching a team lose intentionally. we will not win a lot of games if we sold Gay/Lowry for picks and young talent. Andrew Wiggins is definitely worth tanking for.

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    KD may have been luck, but was Westrbook, Harden and Ibaka? At some point you have to acknowledge that the man knows what he is doing.

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