Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 151

Thread: Changing Circumstances: A Tanking Argument

  1. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,016
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    KD may have been luck, but was Westrbook, Harden and Ibaka? At some point you have to acknowledge that the man knows what he is doing.
    He's no dumby, and he tries his best, like all other GMs, but he's not the talent evaluator and negotiating genius he's being anointed as, by some. He has his hits, and his misses. He didn't seem to "know what he's doing" when he signed Ibaka (great shot blocker, but what else?) to the big $$$, knowing he wouldn't also be able to keep Harden. Then gives Harden up for 3 bit pieces.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,996
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Then gives Harden up for 3 bit pieces.
    Harden is a star, he needed his own team. He got far more for him than we did for Bosh.

    As for questioning his talent evaluation? He has built a perennial playoff powerhouse mostly through the draft. I don't get why anyone thinks they have the right to shit on this man. He is a top GM in the league period.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    103
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    In other words. The only GM's who tank are the ones who are lazy and don't want to build their team the smart way. Ujiri is a very smart guy, he's not going to tank. He knows how to build a team by maneuvering and swapping pieces that fit into the puzzle.
    Sixers tank was textbook. Boston quality tank also. Think I could have lived with us losing one more game a year ago to take Barnes also. Tanking is definitely not always bad, and can be an efficient way to rebuild quickly.

    That being said, not in favour of us tanking this year. I'd prefer to see what we have, and would view a playoff spot as progress.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Richmond Hill, ON
    Posts
    1,970
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Although the moratorium is lifted on July 11th, it seems that the dust is settling a bit (as other teams are signing their players, etc). I'm willing to accept tanking so I'll have to wait and see if the Gay / Derozan or both, falls to the ground via a trade / salary dump. Did I mention I love the Hansbrough signing?
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,382
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Steve Nash had a great quote regarding the Lakers, that I found was applicable to my stance on the matter:


    I think that IF we are a "Second Round Exit" team, then a couple moves should help us get through the next couple rounds.
    That should be the mantra of every player and coach.

    GMs not so much.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    19,382
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    They both suck ass. Sam Presti got lucky with KD and Danny Ainge has never rebuilt a team via tanking and been successful, try again.
    You should revisit 2006-07 celtics season for Ainge.

  7. Like ebrian liked this post
  8. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Kigali, Rwanda
    Posts
    1,678
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I see it being really difficult to do a proper tank. I also see it being really difficult to win 2 playoff games... Unless Ujiri can pull something magical out of his nethercrack, I think it's going to be 2015 before we can really get off the treadmill in either direction.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  9. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Markham
    Posts
    1,536
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    just to be clear about the second round playoff team comment I made. That is with absolutely EVERYTHING going right for us.
    With EVERYTHING going right for us I think we're still a first round exit. This team does not have the talent to beat a top 4 team. Not even close.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  10. #29
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Markham
    Posts
    1,536
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    I see it being really difficult to do a proper tank. I also see it being really difficult to win 2 playoff games... Unless Ujiri can pull something magical out of his nethercrack, I think it's going to be 2015 before we can really get off the treadmill in either direction.
    Agreed. It's difficult also because we've just come off 5 years of losing. Usually tanking comes when the team has an aging group of players, or sees a downward spiral ahead, and accelerates it by selling players for valuable assets and draft picks. I think the problem here is that we've just got so many overpaid players that it's just way harder to find the perfect trade partners to do an instant rebuild. I have to give kudos for the Bargnani trade, that was fantastic. But you literally need to do 2-3 more similar deals to get it completely righted.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  11. Like vino liked this post
  12. #30
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    He's no dumby, and he tries his best, like all other GMs, but he's not the talent evaluator and negotiating genius he's being anointed as, by some. He has his hits, and his misses. He didn't seem to "know what he's doing" when he signed Ibaka (great shot blocker, but what else?) to the big $$$, knowing he wouldn't also be able to keep Harden. Then gives Harden up for 3 bit pieces.
    Serge Ibaka:

    ws/48 of .181 PER 19.4 WP .222

    led the league in blocked shots, 4th in fg%

    shot 35% from 3 and 47% from 16-23ft and a ts% over .600

    all for 12.3 mil a year

    Ibaka was an excellent deal.

    Presti's deal of Harden was a lot more complicated than not evaluating his talent properly or being a bad negotiator. OKC couldn't afford to keep Harden, was still in a position to win now, while young enough to be a contender well into the future. The deal solved OKC's financial issues, gave them a replacement player for the short term and potential replacements long term.

    Interesting fun fact about OKC last year. They had their best winning % ever, their best ORTG ever and their best DRTG ever. As a franchise, one would have to go back to 1994 through 1996 to find winning% and O/Drtgs as good as they had in 2012-13.

    As much as I'm sure Presti had no interest in dealing Harden, the team still continued to improve despite that deal, while having more financial flexibility. It was a rare good deal for both teams.

  13. #31
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You should revisit 2006-07 celtics season for Ainge.
    Agreed.

    While tanking can be part of a rebuild, it shouldn't be thought of as the rebuild itself.

    The Celtics tanked, and then used that to rebuild through trades.

  14. #32
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    47
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Tank Talk SO Ridiculous

    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Preface: I am not a fan of tanking in the least. I think it cheapens the sport and I wish it wasn't an option. However, recent events have forced me to re-examine my view of this.

    Part A: No Tank You

    Cleveland: is looking to acquire Andrew Bynum and other moves show this is a team that is interested in winning now. Their GM has announced that they do not want to be in the lottery any longer.

    Boston: Has sent strong signals that they are not interested in tanking but rather retooling around Rondo/Bradley/Green/Sully/

    Bucks: Not interested in tanking. They are looking to acquire Teague or keep Jennings. Signed OJ Mayo and they still have Ilyasova and Sanders to provide an inside out punch from the 4/5 position.

    Atlanta: Does not appear interested in the tank is going out of its way to gain talent...and until they drop Horford no tank is happening there. Oh and the adding of Millsap suggests more second round playoff exits for Atlanta

    Washington: Wall/Beal/Porter is a young group that will start climbing the ladder this season, tanking will not sit well with a soon to be extended John Wall.

    Portland: Will be taking a significant stride this year as their PG takes another leap.

    Hornets: with a healthy AD, and adding all Jrue Holiday no longer want a piece of this sweet sweet 14 draft class.

    Detroit: When they signed Josh Smith it was a pretty good indication that they were done losing. They are now looking to climb the ladder as well

    Charlotte: signing Al Jefferson has Charlotte primed to move into the dreaded 7 - 11 category, unless they follow that up with other moves.

    Part B - Fuggedaboutit

    The following teams are not even remotely interested in tanking

    Lakers, Clippers, Houston, Miami, New York, Brooklyn, Indiana, Chicago, Golden State, Memphis, San Antonio, OKC, Minnesota.

    Part C - This fence is making my balls hurt

    The following are teams that see the writing on the wall and finally blow it up and tank.

    Denver: They lost...Iggy, Masai, Karl...among others... They have the pieces right now to be another 7 - 11 team. I think they might be taking the view that the 7 - 11 is a ladder and not a well. could go either way.

    Dallas: For the second straight year they have failed to sign a single big name. Dirk is getting older and Calderon is their big FA get. Word is they are still on the hunt, and so I will not place them in the tank train yet but they gotta pull off something and soon or else it becomes a very real possibility.


    Part D - Organic Growth Year (We love that phrase don't we fellas?)

    Orlando, with Tobias Harris, Oladipo, Nicholson, and Vuvecic they look like a promising team on the rise. I think they truly are looking to get better this year and they have four very good pieces to do it with. I expect them to be a 7 - 11 team as well (probably closer to 11) but where as Denver might be looking down a well, Orlando does appear to have a ladder in front of them.

    Utah: Out of the shadow of Millsap and Jefferson, Kanter and Favors now have a big chance to shine. Much like Orlando though this is going to be a step up the ladder kind of year. I see them having about the same result as Portland did last year with a young talented PG learning (fucking up a lot) his way into the league. This will likely put them as high as ten and low as 12 in the west.

    Sacramento: substitute names with Orlando and same deal. 7 - 11 will be a ladder for them. They have a serious head coach now and it they will competitive. I'd say they land right outside the playoffs in 10th

    Part E - Enemy Armor Incoming! Tank Alert

    Philly: The only team in the league that I can see is so obviously tanking it hurts, is Philadephia. Traded an All Star for a guy coming off ANOTHER ACL injury. He does have huge upside but likely won't start getting noticed until the end of the season.

    Part F - I Seriously Don't Know What The Fuck They Are Doing

    Phoenix - ?????????????? retankibuilding? tanktooling? getting worse through the draft? collecting assets? They got Eric Bledsoe to start...maybe...Channing Frye has heart issues, Marcin Gortat doesn't wanna be there. They picked up twins for fun. Kendall Marshall is now a 3rd sting lottery pick??? Someone else can take a crack at this one.

    Which brings us to the Raptors....

    PG - doesn't make team mates better
    SG - Can't shoot 7 million dollar player making 10
    SF - Can't shoot 12 million dollar player making 20
    PF - No back to the basket low post threat - gotta backup wearing a starter hat.
    C - well 1 out of 5 ain't bad!

    Our ceiling with this current group is a second round playoff exit. Which I would love to watch. Believe me...it would be a thing of beauty to watch important games being won. However. If we are only truly racing one team to the bottom, and there are 5 guys that could raise you to another level... I hate to say it but I maybe, just maybe I could be talked into tanking.



    While an interesting post, why do you decimate a young team that has not had a chance to play a full season to have a 25% chance to get a player like Wiggins.

    Even if we play to lose and beat the odds to select Wiggins....how many years are we away to get back to where we may be today. Even Lebron had to be surrounded by other great players to win a championship.

  15. #33
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,191
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    "Get back to where we are today"? We're a 34 win team, where exactly is that?

  16. Like mcHAPPY liked this post
  17. #34
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,125
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Raptorfanatic wrote: View Post
    While an interesting post, why do you decimate a young team that has not had a chance to play a full season to have a 25% chance to get a player like Wiggins.

    Even if we play to lose and beat the odds to select Wiggins....how many years are we away to get back to where we may be today. Even Lebron had to be surrounded by other great players to win a championship.
    Dude the team was 11 games under .500 last year. We're not breaking up a 55 win team on a whim here. Patching together a 30-35 win team is not exactly hard... We could probably do it next summer even if we stripped everything down this year.

  18. Like mcHAPPY liked this post
  19. #35
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Raptorfanatic wrote: View Post
    While an interesting post, why do you decimate a young team that has not had a chance to play a full season to have a 25% chance to get a player like Wiggins.

    Even if we play to lose and beat the odds to select Wiggins....how many years are we away to get back to where we may be today. Even Lebron had to be surrounded by other great players to win a championship.
    First its not just about getting Wiggins. I think this is absolutely imperitive to any 'tanking' debate. Wiggins, at this point in time, just happens to be the pinnacle/ideal/optimal reward for tanking. There are numerous other highly sought after draft picks coming up, and should all else fail (or something else change/become available while the team is tanking) a high 1st round draft pick is always a very valuable commodity. As a bonus, assuming the tank is done 'right', it should also add additional cheap/young players and additional cap space (I will say though, doing it 'right' is a rather loose term).

    Secondly, where the Raptors are is a rather easy place to get to. Even if we assume that the Raps are a playoff bound team, over half the league makes the playoffs every year. If we look at were Toronto is record wise (34 wins), thats an extremely easy point to get to.

    That said, it will most likely take numerous years to rebuild. However, the difference is its done with the purpose of increasing the Raptors ceiling. Giving the team what should be a greater opportunity to become a contender, than the proverbial 7-11/mediocre/treadmill (or whatever label one wants to use) that they stand at today and what looks like the near future.

  20. Like vino, magoon, mcHAPPY liked this post
  21. #36
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,996
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Raptorfanatic wrote: View Post
    While an interesting post, why do you decimate a young team that has not had a chance to play a full season to have a 25% chance to get a player like Wiggins.
    Because it isn't just about Wiggins for me. There are, according to experts, 5 Franchise guys in this draft. So if we play bad enough we have a 100% chance of landing a franchise player.

  22. #37
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,393
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Because it isn't just about Wiggins for me. There are, according to experts, 5 Franchise guys in this draft. So if we play bad enough we have a 100% chance of landing a franchise player.
    I don't believe for a second that there are 5 franchise guys in this draft. I think there is a lot of hyperbole. The 2012 draft was supposed to be amazing as well and it's been pretty meh so far. Guys are already slipping in the 2014 mock draft and the college season hasn't yet begun.

    But I'm swinging my stance on the tank/anti-tank debate and would prefer to start over with a new GM that actually has a vision. Draft picks (especially high lottery picks) are very good assets (probably the best next to a superstar but there are only 3/4 of those to go around).

    High picks can land you very good super-star caliber type players.. either by attracting a superstar to play with that high pick (like Paul in LAC) or by trading those picks to get a really good player (like Harden in Houston or Allen in Boston).

    Since the team is heading towards mediocrity (7-11) it's best to get high value assets now as opposed to later.

  23. #38
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,996
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    But I'm swinging my stance on the tank/anti-tank debate and would prefer to start over with a new GM that actually has a vision.
    After a little more than six weeks, let it be known that planetmars was the first person to call for Masai Ujiri's ouster.

  24. #39
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,393
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    After a little more than six weeks, let it be known that planetmars was the first person to call for Masai Ujiri's ouster.
    lol - yup that's exactly what I meant

  25. #40
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,016
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Harden is a star, he needed his own team. He got far more for him than we did for Bosh.

    As for questioning his talent evaluation? He has built a perennial playoff powerhouse mostly through the draft. I don't get why anyone thinks they have the right to shit on this man. He is a top GM in the league period.
    I didn't shit on him. I said he makes mistakes too, in reference to your reverence of him, period.

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •