Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 151

Thread: Changing Circumstances: A Tanking Argument

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    18,986
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote aaron.in.toronto wrote: View Post
    just listened to weltman on the radio and what he said was pretty clear;

    -first we are going to have to get a real offer of some magnitude to trade dd or gay

    -second our strategy going forward will be to go into the season and see if our core holds enough promise to hold on to and continue to grow before we will tear it down completely

    -lastly(as far as this is concerned...) we are working on some trades right now to improve the team and what we do as far as signings/direction will depend on what we can get done in that regard

    tanking is just a word that i think is missing the point as far as what we are going to do,each player is going to be evaluated by the new management before we decide what to do with them. tanking is an all encompassing concept that implies we are going to just throw in the towel and get rid of all our players for whatever we can get and that will just never happen.

    if we play well and the core shows promise (which implies that MU is not convinced that it does at this point...) then getting the first pick is out of the question and this group will be held together...simple as that, we wont try to lose the games on purpose, thats just not the way it works at this level
    Thanks for synopsis.

    If anyone has a link to the interview I'd like to have it.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #62
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    1,110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I know what he is and I have an idea of what he can be as an asset but what does this have to do with tanking?
    It's just to say: the Hansbrough signing is not really evidence of anything one way or the other.

    That Kings organization was noted as one of the very best in the league for half of the last decade. They had some reasonable success in the very competitive and dominate west. Then their window closed and they chose to demolish and start over from the ground up, to tank year over year. It's not surprising to hear advocates of tanking rub our faces in the few cases where a team has made it work(albeit not achieve the objective of all 30 teams) while denouncing the multitude of examples of where it hasn't worked.
    And again: anti-tankers keep conflating "tanking" with simply "sucking." The competitive Sacramento years were marked by them losing their key players to free agency or making bad trades. Proper tank/rebuilds are marked by collecting assets on the way down and letting them appreciate so you rocket out of the bad part as quickly as you can.

    They removed a player who's play was counter to winning and they added a few guys who fill needs, who improve the 34 win team right now. Right now they have a team that should win at least 34 games. I will go that far, they're not tanking based on what's happened so far.
    Nobody disputes that right now the Raptors are a low-playoff seed at best. The problem is that they are not likely to get much better than that.

    One more point. Refusing to compromise does not mean they can't/won't trade into the lottery to get the guy they want. I realize people are going to say that it's not possible because that's what they see on TV but TV and reality are two different things. We should have learned that just by watching the 2013 draft night play out.
    The only major trade in the 2013 draft that wasn't simply pick-for-pick-and-change was the NO/Philly trade, which sent an All-Star to NO in exchange for Nerlens Noel (who went sixth, remember) and a future pick. We don't have an All-Star handy. The simple truth about draft picks is that they get more expensive as you get closer to the draft and their value becomes more clear (as the ranking of the pick gets more established and the level of the players you can draft with it becomes more apparent).

  3. #63
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    43
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    wonder what trades they are working on

  4. #64
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    18,986
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Evia99 wrote: View Post
    wonder what trades they are working on
    My guess nothing.

    I feel they are sitting on their hands and waiting.

    Patience.

    If nothing comes along that knocks their socks off, they roll in to 2013-14 as is.

    I would not expect Ujiri to be proactive in seeking deals until December 15th when off season free agents can be moved.

    **BTW, totally talking out of my ass as I'm sure everyone is use to.**
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  5. #65
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    4,939
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    imo Weltman's interview (synopsis above) is still a hedge meaning we still dont know what is going to happen going forward re a major trade. As someone mentioned above Clev. may still be in play re Gay if their try for Bynum falls thru. They have the picks and players and cash to absorb. More importantly they want to be in win mode this year. Their other possibility for a SF is Kirilenko.

  6. #66
    Raptors Republic Superstar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    4,939
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I understand Ujiri will be on the McCown show @ 6pm.

  7. #67
    Raptors Republic Rookie vino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    190
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Steve Nash had a great quote regarding the Lakers, that I found was applicable to my stance on the matter:


    I think that IF we are a "Second Round Exit" team, then a couple moves should help us get through the next couple rounds.

    Listened to Steve Kerr interview during the playoffs... and he's mentioned one very good point - "it is relatively easy to build a playoff team; it is much harder to convert it into a true contender". I'd argue that these "couple of moves" you are talking about could not be made with this existing roster because our both primary trade chips (Gay, DD) are highly overpriced. Of course, it could be possible if at least one of them comes out the gates and plays at at an all star level for two straight months... before the trade deadline but I'm just being realistic and not seeing this option as "likely". Would love that to happen (and would you trade either one if they play lights out for two straight months??) though...

  8. #68
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,341
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I haven't seen the Novak presser; heard Weltman on the radio; and I may not get a chance to listen to MU on PrimeTime.. but from what I've read recently it appears the team wants to just chill.

    Go into the season without much change. If the team does well, then they build from there (like Indiana has done the last few years). If the team does poorly they will tear it down and rebuild.

    So it looks like if the tankers want to get a head start at Wiggins it may not happen unless the team goes 4-19 again (which is probable but unlikely).

  9. #69
    Raptors Republic Rookie vino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    190
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    The recent signing suggests that they're not tanking.
    An argument could made of the opposite - a team of say: Stone, Ross, MKG, Hansbrough, Val could be exciting to watch... (stick Ben Gordon to the bench) they won't win many games but no one will be talking about losing on purpose. I'd go as far as say a team like that with a stud PG instead of Stone could become a contender! Of course Charlotte is unlikely to unload MKG, more like Sessions... and if I'm Charlotte I would definitely tank myself, but it's just a hypothetical scenario.

  10. #70
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    3
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Okay so let me understand this
    We trade Rudy Gay, our best player, who is only 26, who actually wants to be here, who is a better defender tgen people thought as he proved since he got in TO, who is arguable a top 7 SF in our league ( 20+ pts, 5-6 Rebs, 3-4 assts, 1.5 steals and blocks per game) for who ? We do this to tank so on the very very very small chance we get a top 5 pick so we have an even smaller chance of getting AW ?????
    And if we don't get a top 3 puck, then we have to suffer again in mediocraty for how many more years ?
    Agree Rudy is over paid but so are 80% of the players. Every team needs one star and Rudy is ours
    Better to trade DD
    Tanking is not an answer for our fans, our players, our team and BB in general.

  11. #71
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    New Brunswick
    Posts
    1,524
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    This season is about a culture change, not about tanking. Ujiri moves Bargs, who is aguably the softest player in the league, and brings in Hansborough, who is one of the toughest, dirtiest players in the game today. This is about sending a message to the team about what kind of squad we want to be. Our starting five right now:

    Lowry
    Derozan
    Gay
    Johnson
    Valanciunas

    with Hansborough, Ross, and Novak as your primary back ups. Then you have Stone and Acy ready to play spot minutes. That is a team that should be built on hustle, defense, and toughness. Is it a title contender? No, and I'd argue it's a team whose goal this year should be to get to the first round and try to take a game or two off one of the top teams.

    What we need, more than a high pick, is a direction for this team. We have the players and the coach to begin to shape that a bit and follow the mold of a team like the Pacers. Intentionally losing games sets us back, and if you start sacrificing the core we do have in order to maybe get a good draft pick, you set this franchise back.

    That said, if you get to February and the team is looking like garbage, it might be time to blow it up.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

  12. Like Primer, ReubenJRD liked this post
  13. #72
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,962
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    the challenge that is just starting to become apparent to me is that because of the situation Ujiri was left it, he is forced to be opportunistic. Instead of going out and actively hunting, he is setting traps and waiting.

  14. #73
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,962
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default



  15. #74
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC.
    Posts
    4,024
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    This season is about a culture change, not about tanking. Ujiri moves Bargs, who is aguably the softest player in the league, and brings in Hansborough, who is one of the toughest, dirtiest players in the game today. This is about sending a message to the team about what kind of squad we want to be. Our starting five right now:

    Lowry
    Derozan
    Gay
    Johnson
    Valanciunas

    with Hansborough, Ross, and Novak as your primary back ups. Then you have Stone and Acy ready to play spot minutes. That is a team that should be built on hustle, defense, and toughness. Is it a title contender? No, and I'd argue it's a team whose goal this year should be to get to the first round and try to take a game or two off one of the top teams.

    What we need, more than a high pick, is a direction for this team. We have the players and the coach to begin to shape that a bit and follow the mold of a team like the Pacers. Intentionally losing games sets us back, and if you start sacrificing the core we do have in order to maybe get a good draft pick, you set this franchise back.

    That said, if you get to February and the team is looking like garbage, it might be time to blow it up.
    I agree with this. And let's say hypothetically, the Raptors make the playoffs, they will have a low pick in the first round in the 2014 draft because, well, they were in the playoffs, lol. Looking at Ujiri's track record of drafting, it's quite fascinating, especially because he's been able to grab good players at low spots in the draft i.e. Fournier, Quincy Miller, Faried.

    A good core, solid asset management around the core, bringing in young talent, having an established direction/culture, would put this team in the direction they want to head to. I personally like this "want to follow the Indiana mold" type stuff, because looking at Indiana now, to where they were a couple years back, it looks good.

  16. #75
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,341
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I wonder at what point next season MU would consider it a lost season?

    If the team goes 5-15 in their first 20 should he rebuild? What about 10-10? Or 12-8?

    There is a fine line about being bad, mediocre and good. At what point does he cross the line without falling into the 7-11 trap?

  17. #76
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,736
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Ujiri is not a Tanker. Even if he did/does decide to trade Gay, he'd try to bring back valuable pieces that will still help this team compete like he did with Melo.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  18. #77
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    11,941
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    When you factor in how inefficient Andrea was last year and how little time he actually played and then consider how solid Tyler is and how he fits Casey's system it's easy to say Tyler is an upgrade; note that I'm not saying more talented. A big man rotation of JV and Amir starting with Hansborough being the primary off the bench will be more productive. Not to mentioned JV should take another step forward this year.

    With all else remaining equal, along with a three point marksman providing a different look every now and then it's not outlandish to think that they can win four to six more games this year if everyone stays healthy. That puts them in at 38-40 wins; 8th seed won 38 last season.

    A round one dance with the Champs is a legit possibility.

  19. #78
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,736
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    When you factor in how inefficient Andrea was last year and how little time he actually played and then consider how solid Tyler is and how he fits Casey's system it's easy to say Tyler is an upgrade; note that I'm not saying more talented. A big man rotation of JV and Amir starting with Hansborough being the primary off the bench will be more productive. Not to mentioned JV should take another step forward this year.

    With all else remaining equal, along with a three point marksman providing a different look every now and then it's not outlandish to think that they can win four to six more games this year if everyone stays healthy. That puts them in at 38-40 wins; 8th seed won 38 last season.

    A round one dance with the Champs is a legit possibility.
    You throw in the improvements of Ross, possibly Gay with his corrected Vision, Lowry, and DeRozan. You got possibly 6 to 8 extra wins just from internal development. I wouldn't be sad if we ended up 8th but i wanna be somewhere between 5 - 7, but any playoff spot is awesome at this point. This City is killing for playoff basketball
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  20. #79
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    11,941
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Yeah, not to mention Gay for an entire season and with everybody used to playing with him; chemistry.

  21. #80
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,286
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    You throw in the improvements of Ross, possibly Gay with his corrected Vision, Lowry, and DeRozan. You got possibly 6 to 8 extra wins just from internal development. I wouldn't be sad if we ended up 8th but i wanna be somewhere between 5 - 7, but any playoff spot is awesome at this point. This City is killing for playoff basketball
    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Yeah, not to mention Gay for an entire system and with everybody used to playing with him; chemistry.
    gotta love that organic growth, eh?! lol

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •