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Thread: Changing Circumstances: A Tanking Argument

  1. #101
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Young, yes. Neither have shown anything resembling exceptional talent though. DeRozan isn't going to improve by leaps and bouds anymore so outside of tightening up his game he is what we've seen so far. Ross still has the potential to be that guy you are referring to, but he didn't exactly grab the opportunitiy that was given to him last season. My hope lies more with Ross at this point, but he needs to show that he wants it. He's gotta go at DeRozan hard in practice and take the starting role from him.
    What opportunity? Did I miss something? He struggled out the gate, then started adjusting quite well...then had like 3 bad games which coincided with the Gay trade, and got buried on the bench in favour of AA until the last 15ish games of the year.

    He did fairly well in the stretches of the year where he saw regular minutes. He had obvious rookie struggles, but he also showed a good skill base, and freakish athleticism. I would say he did fine when given the opportunity...this was just inexplicably taken away from him at some point...Probably because Colangelo went to Casey and said "if you don't make the playoffs we'll both get fired", so Casey tried to play AA with that goal in mind.

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  3. #102
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    What opportunity? Did I miss something? He struggled out the gate, then started adjusting quite well...then had like 3 bad games which coincided with the Gay trade, and got buried on the bench in favour of AA until the last 15ish games of the year.

    He did fairly well in the stretches of the year where he saw regular minutes. He had obvious rookie struggles, but he also showed a good skill base, and freakish athleticism. I would say he did fine when given the opportunity...this was just inexplicably taken away from him at some point...Probably because Colangelo went to Casey and said "if you don't make the playoffs we'll both get fired", so Casey tried to play AA with that goal in mind.
    With his skill set, if he came into the league NBA ready it would not have taken long to de-throne DeMar or at the very least take minutes away from Alan Anderson. He was not ready and thus is what I meant about not using his opportunity given to him whether it was in practice or in game.

    He was a rookie and not everyone can make a smooth transition from college to NBA like Lillard, Wade, Griffin, VC etc..which is why I went onto say that my hope lies with him more than DeMar to be a more exceptional player. However, he has to play like he knows he's better than DeMar and take the minutes.

  4. #103
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    With his skill set, if he came into the league NBA ready it would not have taken long to de-throne DeMar or at the very least take minutes away from Alan Anderson. He was not ready and thus is what I meant about not using his opportunity given to him whether it was in practice or in game.

    He was a rookie and not everyone can make a smooth transition from college to NBA like Lillard, Wade, Griffin, VC etc..which is why I went onto say that my hope lies with him more than DeMar to be a more exceptional player. However, he has to play like he knows he's better than DeMar and take the minutes.
    So you wanted him to take advantage of an opportunity he was not ready for? I thought he did since he clearly was too green to be out there. He definitely played above his level of "readiness" when given regular minutes.

  5. #104
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bold: Sadly it is not that easy. Then we need a Stephenson, an all-star PF, depth on the bench. I think hoping two guys with 4 full seasons and 7 full seasons under their belt to step up and become what a guy with just 3 years experience is missing the entire point of the discussion: ceiling vs. stepping stone.
    The difference between Casey and Vogel is pretty wide at this point too.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    So you wanted him to take advantage of an opportunity he was not ready for? I thought he did since he clearly was too green to be out there. He definitely played above his level of "readiness" when given regular minutes.
    Ross was supposed to be an NBA ready prospect. That was part of the justification for tabbing him over Drummond.

    He had plenty of opportunities at the beginning of last season, but he struggled mightily as the year went on and played his way out of the rotation. It's that simple. He had a close to two month stretch where he was about as bad as any player in the league. The narrative that Casey suddenly woke up one morning in January and decided to bury Ross in favour of AA has gotten a little out of control. Ross played a huge part in it - by playing terribly.

  7. #106
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Ross was supposed to be an NBA ready prospect. That was part of the justification for tabbing him over Drummond.

    He had plenty of opportunities at the beginning of last season, but he struggled mightily as the year went on and played his way out of the rotation. It's that simple. He had a close to two month stretch where he was about as bad as any player in the league. The narrative that Casey suddenly woke up one morning in January and decided to bury Ross in favour of AA has gotten a little out of control.
    That's news to me. They said he already had one NBA skill, and that's shooting. That doesn't mean he's going to come in knocking down every shot he takes, or playing 30 mpg.

    And it was in February. Go look at the game logs. Ross and Anderson both hit a funk around the trade...as is a bit normal when something shakes up the rotation. Anderson was given a chance to play out of it. Ross was not. Anderson had an awful February, with just horrid games shooting the ball where he didn't have much impact at all. It was his worst month. Yet he never lost his opportunity.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Jul 11th, 2013 at 11:12 AM.

  8. #107
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't put DeRozan or Ross anywhere near the same level of talent as George. Nowhere. George has range, defends, rebounds, creates and is one year younger with one year less experience in the league with DeRozan having over 50% more minutes played.

    George had just as much of an impact in his rookie season in nearly 1800 less minutes than DD had in his best season (last year and his 4th in the league) based on WP.

    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/co...r=1&player_ids[]=318&player_ids[]=113&utf8=%E2%9C%93


    Bold: Sadly it is not that easy. Then we need a Stephenson, an all-star PF, depth on the bench. I think hoping two guys with 4 full seasons and 7 full seasons under their belt to step up and become what a guy with just 3 years experience is missing the entire point of the discussion: ceiling vs. stepping stone.
    Paul George is much better than Derozan or Ross, no question, particularily in his defense and rebounding. I think you are over staing how much better he is offensively, people forget he only shot 42% from the floor last season and had 3 TO's per game, but he is still much better than DD or Ross. The playoff performance also makes a big difference. I think that Rudy Gay has more of a shot at being that guy for us but there are parts of his game that need some tuning up.

    To me the secret to the pacers success is pretty simple: they have a very effective big man in Roy Hibbert and two very good three men in Paul George and Granger. Everyone else is role players and while some of them are very good role players, they are not part of the core of that team.

    I think we have some of the other peices we need already. Amir Johnson is better than he gets credit for and comes back a little bit better every year, maybe not all-star level but he has become a solid contributer, Lowry is a solid point guard, and we are starting to have a little bit of depth off the bench.

    If Valanciunas ends up being good, then I think that we are not as far away from being a team like the Pacers as you make it out to be.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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  9. #108
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    So you wanted him to take advantage of an opportunity he was not ready for? I thought he did since he clearly was too green to be out there. He definitely played above his level of "readiness" when given regular minutes.
    By your own words he had the opportunity. If he wasn't ready for it for whatever reason is besides the point. Why are some players ready from day one and others aren't? Maturity, preparation, there are a bunch or reasons. I was simply saying he did not take advantage of the opportunity which was given to him, not that he has lost the opportunity to to prove himself in following years, or that he should be thought of as not having the potential to be a good player.

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    Quote seiz wrote: View Post
    Personally, I don't really understand the Indiana comparisons. Indiana is one of the best defensive teams in the league. They have two all-stars in Paul George and Roy Hibbert. A former All-star in David West and an All-NBA 3rd team player in Paul George. Rudy Gay is going to enter next season at 27. He's been in this league for the past 7 years and has not improved since his 2nd year in the league. Demar Derozan just finished his 4th year in the league and still can't shoot consistently or dribble. Unless you believe that Demar and Rudy are going to have breakout years next year and that the team will dramatically improve on defense and be one of the best defensive teams in the league, I don't see the Indiana comparisons. Potential does have a shelf life.
    It's more the idea of having a team based around a center and a small forward as your stars. Is it a reach? Probably, but when you look around the league there isn't another team with that blue print, so Indiana it is. As far as defense, I am hoping that we get to be one of the better teams. We have all of the pieces to do it, it's just a matter of getting that mind set and geting everyone to buy in.

    Mostly whishful thinking, but it gives us eternal optimists something to hope for.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

  11. #110
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    By your own words he had the opportunity. If he wasn't ready for it for whatever reason is besides the point. Why are some players ready from day one and others aren't? Maturity, preparation, there are a bunch or reasons. I was simply saying he did not take advantage of the opportunity which was given to him, not that he has lost the opportunity to to prove himself in following years, or that he should be thought of as not having the potential to be a good player.
    He had the opportunity to play...mostly because Casey didn't have a choice. Ross got minutes early because of injuries. He was never given a fair opportunity to secure a role. He wasn't given the chance to play out of a funk. He also was clearly Casey's last choice most nights in terms of the wing rotation. That's not much of a fair opportunity when guys like Pietrus are handed a starting job for awhile...or again, Alan Anderson, is given the chance to play out of one the worst slumps in Raptors history....those are opportunities.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    He had the opportunity to play...mostly because Casey didn't have a choice. Ross got minutes early because of injuries. He was never given a fair opportunity to secure a role. He wasn't given the chance to play out of a funk. He also was clearly Casey's last choice most nights in terms of the wing rotation. That's not much of a fair opportunity when guys like Pietrus are handed a starting job for awhile...or again, Alan Anderson, is given the chance to play out of one the worst slumps in Raptors history....those are opportunities.
    Here is an example of what I mean. If we had drafted Damian Lillard, is there any question in your mind that he would have taken the starting role from Lowry by the end of the season? Not in mine because whether it was in practice or in actual game time he would have gone out and out played Lowry for those minutes.

    To say that Ross was passed over by Casey for AA, DD or MP isn't factual imo. Perhaps Casey prefers to play veterans over rookies, sure, but if Ross outplayed those guys he would have forced Casey to play him. Instead, he was a liability on the floor on defense a lot of the time and didn't capitalize by shooting well either which was supposed to be his strength.

  13. #112
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Here is an example of what I mean. If we had drafted Damian Lillard, is there any question in your mind that he would have taken the starting role from Lowry by the end of the season? Not in mine because whether it was in practice or in actual game time he would have gone out and out played Lowry for those minutes.

    To say that Ross was passed over by Casey for AA, DD or MP isn't factual imo. Perhaps Casey prefers to play veterans over rookies, sure, but if Ross outplayed those guys he would have forced Casey to play him. Instead, he was a liability on the floor on defense a lot of the time and didn't capitalize by shooting well either which was supposed to be his strength.
    Yes I doubt that. He would have had a different approach from the beginning I'm sure. It's not easy to come in as a rookie and outplay someone for a starting spot. Lillard had no competition in Portland and was handed that role. If he had to outplay Jose or Lowry for those minutes, when either of those guys are slotted to start, and Casey is the coach, I'm not confident he would have...not in the least.

    There's nothing factual about saying that Lillard would have succeeded in such a situation. It's your gut after seeing him succeed in a situation where he was giftwrapped a role/opportunity.

    I mean, is there any doubt in your mind that had Ross gotten the same opportunity say as Waiters, that he wouldn't have averaged 14-15 pts on 41% shooting and 31% from 3s? Not in mine.

  14. #113
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Here is an example of what I mean. If we had drafted Damian Lillard, is there any question in your mind that he would have taken the starting role from Lowry by the end of the season? Not in mine because whether it was in practice or in actual game time he would have gone out and out played Lowry for those minutes.

    To say that Ross was passed over by Casey for AA, DD or MP isn't factual imo. Perhaps Casey prefers to play veterans over rookies, sure, but if Ross outplayed those guys he would have forced Casey to play him. Instead, he was a liability on the floor on defense a lot of the time and didn't capitalize by shooting well either which was supposed to be his strength.
    We need to factor in the idea of which player was more "NBA-ready". Ross was projected to be more of a project than Lillard. When drafting projects, teams/coaches need to allow for real game minutes for projects to develop.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  15. #114
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    Also what the team situation was like. I'm quite confident if the Raps draft Lillard, he probably would've had a 6th man role, since his strength is scoring, but he still struggled with the distributing/turnover aspect, which a coach will not stand for with a starter, especially if he's being pushed to make a playoff run.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Yes I doubt that. He would have had a different approach from the beginning I'm sure. It's not easy to come in as a rookie and outplay someone for a starting spot. Lillard had no competition in Portland and was handed that role. If he had to outplay Jose or Lowry for those minutes, when either of those guys are slotted to start, and Casey is the coach, I'm not confident he would have...not in the least.

    There's nothing factual about saying that Lillard would have succeeded in such a situation. It's your gut after seeing him succeed in a situation where he was giftwrapped a role/opportunity.

    I mean, is there any doubt in your mind that had Ross gotten the same opportunity say as Waiters, that he wouldn't have averaged 14-15 pts on 41% shooting and 31% from 3s? Not in mine.
    There is nothing factual about saying that Lillard wouldn't have outplayed Jose or Lowry for those minutes either.
    Lillard tore it up in summer league, Ross struggled. Presumambly (though not factual because I didn't hear news about it) Lillard was also a stud in training camp because Portland felt comfortable starting him from day one I beleive, and he played well from the start.

    If Ross came into training camp and outplayed DD then I feel confident that he would have either started along side of him or at the very least been the 6th man off the bench. He acheived neither of those.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    We need to factor in the idea of which player was more "NBA-ready". Ross was projected to be more of a project than Lillard. When drafting projects, teams/coaches need to allow for real game minutes for projects to develop.
    I completely agree.

    I think there is some confusion of what I'm trying to get through. I'm not saying that Ross isn't an special talent, but I'm not saying his is one either. I was only saying that he has yet to show it along with DD, in reponse to another posters comment about how the two of them are young talented players.

    WMCJ, may have taken my comments to mean that Ross isn't a special talent or perhaps feels that Ross already is a special talent but not been given an opportunity to show it (I'm not clear on which). I'm just trying to point out that he was given an opportunity, but has yet to prove he is that special talent that WMCJ may think he is and that I hope but have yet to see that he is.

  18. #117
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    There is nothing factual about saying that Lillard wouldn't have outplayed Jose or Lowry for those minutes either.
    Lillard tore it up in summer league, Ross struggled. Presumambly (though not factual because I didn't hear news about it) Lillard was also a stud in training camp because Portland felt comfortable starting him from day one I beleive, and he played well from the start.

    If Ross came into training camp and outplayed DD then I feel confident that he would have either started along side of him or at the very least been the 6th man off the bench. He acheived neither of those.
    Well you said to suggest that Casey passed on Ross for other guys wasn't factual. But that is based entirely on evidence. Ross didn't get the same opportunities. He was given less minutes. That is a fact. Everything else is speculative about Lillard. There is nothing factual about saying he would've outplayed Jose/Lowry for the starting spot either. To suggest your opinion is fact is to basically suggest you're God.

    Who did Lillard outplay for Portland's starting job? Does anyone even remember who their other PG options were in training camp? They left the spot open for him since they expected not to be that competitive last year.

    Who else has had strong summer leagues? Jerryd Bayless? Marco Belinelli? Summer league doesn't mean much. It can mean a guy belongs in the NBA...it doesn't really help figure out just to what level he'll get.

    Also, what kind of comparison can be made between the #1 rated PG in a draft, and the #4 rated wing? Not even, more like #6 on most boards after Lamb and Rivers. Again, I said that if Ross had been handed an open position, like Waiters in Cleveland, he would easily have put up comparable numbers. And again, if Toronto had drafted Lillard, I'm quite confident his weaknesses would have been more exposed in training camp by Jose/Lowry, than by nobody in Portland. I highly doubt he would have outplayed them enough to earn a starting job. In all likelihood I would've expected Jose/Lowry to start for the year, and Lillard come off the bench as a scorer for decent minutes. He would have certainly secured a role...but as Nilanka said, he was supposed to be more NBA ready than Ross, which is why I bring up their projected place at respective positions on draft boards.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Jul 11th, 2013 at 01:05 PM.

  19. #118
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Well you said to suggest that Casey passed on Ross for other guys wasn't factual. But that is based entirely on evidence. Ross didn't get the same opportunities. He was given less minutes. That is a fact. Everything else is speculative about Lillard. There is nothing factual about saying he would've outplayed Jose/Lowry for the starting spot either. To suggest your opinion is fact is to basically suggest you're God.

    Who did Lillard outplay for Portland's starting job? Does anyone even remember who their other PG options were in training camp? They left the spot open for him since they expected not to be that competitive last year.

    Who else has had strong summer leagues? Jerryd Bayless? Marco Belinelli? Summer league doesn't mean much. It can mean a guy belongs in the NBA...it doesn't really help figure out just to what level he'll get.

    Also, what kind of comparison can be made between the #1 rated PG in a draft, and the #4 rated wing? Not even, more like #6 on most boards after Lamb and Rivers. Again, I said that if Ross had been handed an open position, like Waiters in Cleveland, he would easily have put up comparable numbers. And again, if Toronto had drafted Lillard, I'm quite confident his weaknesses would have been more exposed in training camp by Jose/Lowry, than by nobody in Portland. I highly doubt he would have outplayed them enough to earn a starting job. In all likelihood I would've expected Jose/Lowry to start for the year, and Lillard come off the bench as a scorer for decent minutes. He would have certainly secured a role...but as Nilanka said, he was supposed to be more NBA ready than Ross, which is why I bring up their projected place at respective positions on draft boards.
    This was my full comment:
    To say that Ross was passed over by Casey for AA, DD or MP isn't factual imo. Perhaps Casey prefers to play veterans over rookies, sure, but if Ross outplayed those guys he would have forced Casey to play him. Instead, he was a liability on the floor on defense a lot of the time and didn't capitalize by shooting well either which was supposed to be his strength.

    I also said there wasn't any doubt in my mind that Lillard would have outplayed JC and KL for the starting role but that is hardly saying it's a fact.

    I'm not sure what being the top rated PG and the 4th rated wing has to do with this conversation. All I've said so far is that Ross was given his opportunity to earn more minutes and he didn't.

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    I'm enjoying this debate by the way, and hope you are too!

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    But you're comparing his situation to Lillard's, which is a totally non-sensical comparison. Different position, different NBA-readiness, different roster competition. You're basically saying that no matter what, you think Lillard would have earned a starting spot, regardless of any other factors, and that Ross, never would have, regardless of other factors. That's so crazy I worry for your future.

    My opinion on Lillard not winning the starting job is based heavily in what coaches look for from floor generals, and is often the deciding factor: decision-making. Lillard definitely did as well as anybody could've hoped, but if the Raps kept Jose as the starter, would Casey, a coach who values not turning it over a lot (as much as any coach), really ever give Lillard the starting job? Especially when Bryan Colangelo is breathing down his neck to make the playoffs? I find it very unlikely. Especially when you factor in how weak the Raps bench turned out to be, and how good a scorer Lillard is. The bench scoring role would've been a very natural role for him as a rookie. Then Jose expires and you move him up to start. They probably never trade for Lowry if they draft Lillard.

    The draft rating matters because I'm talking about positions. That's why I tried to bring Waiters into the debate (the 2nd SG and 2nd/3rd rated wing, debatable with Barnes). He played pretty badly all year but is not seen that badly because he was a starting SG who averaged 14 pts. But he, like Lillard, had zero competition for minutes at his position. They were allowed to play badly. Check that again. THEY WERE ALLOWED TO PLAY BADLY. As in, their teams were willing to let them play through mistakes.

    This was not the case for Ross. He had a very short leash. This could end up being better for his long-term development, but it certainly affected his rookie season a great deal. And it shouldn't reflect poorly on him. Again, he did well when given a consistent minutes. Hopefully, with a bit longer leash and more regular role, he is able to thrive. And it matters to be handed a bigger opportunity. To grow as an NBA player, someone needs NBA minutes. You can debate whether they're earning them in practice, but it's hard to know what you're doing right/wrong when you can't do it in real competition.

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