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Thread: Changing Circumstances: A Tanking Argument

  1. #121
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I'm enjoying this debate by the way, and hope you are too!
    i am. this is quite possibly the longest a good debate has remained respectful without it degrading into name calling or somebody sidetracking in a very long time

    as a spectator, good job fellas

  2. #122
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    sidetracking
    boobies.

  3. #123
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    But you're comparing his situation to Lillard's, which is a totally non-sensical comparison. Different position, different NBA-readiness, different roster competition. You're basically saying that no matter what, you think Lillard would have earned a starting spot, regardless of any other factors, and that Ross, never would have, regardless of other factors. That's so crazy I worry for your future.

    My opinion on Lillard not winning the starting job is based heavily in what coaches look for from floor generals, and is often the deciding factor: decision-making. Lillard definitely did as well as anybody could've hoped, but if the Raps kept Jose as the starter, would Casey, a coach who values not turning it over a lot (as much as any coach), really ever give Lillard the starting job? Especially when Bryan Colangelo is breathing down his neck to make the playoffs? I find it very unlikely. Especially when you factor in how weak the Raps bench turned out to be, and how good a scorer Lillard is. The bench scoring role would've been a very natural role for him as a rookie. Then Jose expires and you move him up to start. They probably never trade for Lowry if they draft Lillard.

    The draft rating matters because I'm talking about positions. That's why I tried to bring Waiters into the debate (the 2nd SG and 2nd/3rd rated wing, debatable with Barnes). He played pretty badly all year but is not seen that badly because he was a starting SG who averaged 14 pts. But he, like Lillard, had zero competition for minutes at his position. They were allowed to play badly. Check that again. THEY WERE ALLOWED TO PLAY BADLY. As in, their teams were willing to let them play through mistakes.

    This was not the case for Ross. He had a very short leash. This could end up being better for his long-term development, but it certainly affected his rookie season a great deal. And it shouldn't reflect poorly on him. Again, he did well when given a consistent minutes. Hopefully, with a bit longer leash and more regular role, he is able to thrive. And it matters to be handed a bigger opportunity. To grow as an NBA player, someone needs NBA minutes. You can debate whether they're earning them in practice, but it's hard to know what you're doing right/wrong when you can't do it in real competition.
    No need to worry about my future, I do pretty damn well. Also no need to take anything I say personally. I try my best to not offend people so I do it's not meant that way.

    Lets try this yet another way. So my point at the start of all this was that Ross as well as DD have not shown that they are anything special. Well neither has Waiters imo despite being a starter. Nor did DD in his first season though I beleive he may have started many games. So what I'm trying to say is that it's has nothing to do with being a starter or coming off the bench. Ross has yet to show me that he can be anything more than what we see in DD as a player thus far.

  4. #124
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    You throw in the improvements of Ross, possibly Gay with his corrected Vision, Lowry, and DeRozan. You got possibly 6 to 8 extra wins just from internal development. I wouldn't be sad if we ended up 8th but i wanna be somewhere between 5 - 7, but any playoff spot is awesome at this point. This City is killing for playoff basketball
    We're actually decently built to hang with the Heat too. Gay can guard Lebron straight up, and we have competent big men, which is Miami's kryptonite. The addition of a lights out 3 point shooter also helps, as the Spurs showed Miami has no answer if you're raining three's all game long (who does though?). Not saying we'd give them a real run for their money, but I think we'd take a game or two. Miami has a habit of taking games off in the playoffs.

    Taking a game from Miami in the playoffs would be a huge confidence boost for the team and the city. I'd liken it to when Atlanta took the NBA Champion Boston Celtics to 7 games during the first year of the Big 3. That was the first time Atlanta had made the playoffs in like 9 years, and they were a bad team who limped into the playoffs with like 35 wins. I was at all those games in Atlanta and I've never seen anything like it, the fan presence was so intense that Boston (who crushed Atlanta every game in Boston) just couldn't get a win in that building. That series gave the team and the entire city confidence and they kept getting better each year after that.. Granted they never made it to a conference finals, but that's where having Ujiri and Leiweke instead of Rick Sund and the disastrous Atlanta Spirit Group makes the difference.
    Last edited by Primer; Thu Jul 11th, 2013 at 03:11 PM.

  5. #125
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Guys... We're getting way ahead of ourselves here if we're going to start claiming the Raptors match up well against the Heat... Yikes. Bosh, Haslem and Andersen is weak in comparison to their wing play of James, Wade, Battier, Miller and Lewis but come on guys.

    JV, Johnson and Mr. T doesn't have an sort of advantage over Bosh, Haslem and Andersen at this point in development. That trio is solid on defense and they aren't required to do much on offense for the Heat to put up points. The Heat would torche the Raptors in a seven game series. I'd be surprised if the Raptors got more than one win.

  6. #126
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Guys... We're getting way ahead of ourselves here if we're going to start claiming the Raptors match up well against the Heat... Yikes. Bosh, Haslem and Andersen is weak in comparison to their wing play of James, Wade, Battier, Miller and Lewis but come on guys.

    JV, Johnson and Mr. T doesn't have an sort of advantage over Bosh, Haslem and Andersen at this point in development. That trio is solid on defense and they aren't required to do much on offense for the Heat to put up points. The Heat would torche the Raptors in a seven game series. I'd be surprised if the Raptors got more than one win.

  7. #127
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Paul George is much better than Derozan or Ross, no question, particularily in his defense and rebounding. I think you are over staing how much better he is offensively, people forget he only shot 42% from the floor last season and had 3 TO's per game, but he is still much better than DD or Ross. The playoff performance also makes a big difference. I think that Rudy Gay has more of a shot at being that guy for us but there are parts of his game that need some tuning up.

    To me the secret to the pacers success is pretty simple: they have a very effective big man in Roy Hibbert and two very good three men in Paul George and Granger. Everyone else is role players and while some of them are very good role players, they are not part of the core of that team.

    I think we have some of the other peices we need already. Amir Johnson is better than he gets credit for and comes back a little bit better every year, maybe not all-star level but he has become a solid contributer, Lowry is a solid point guard, and we are starting to have a little bit of depth off the bench.

    If Valanciunas ends up being good, then I think that we are not as far away from being a team like the Pacers as you make it out to be.
    I'm sorry but in my opinion the Raptors are much more than Valanciunas being good to be taking Miami to game 7 in the Eastern Conference Finals.

    George might have shot 42% from the floor but he shot 45.7% on 2pt FG compared to DeRozan's 46.3%. The difference in shooting is George takes 5.5 extra 3pt attempts per 48 minutes. As for the turnovers, that tends to happen to great players: LBJ 3 TO/g, Durant 3.5 TO/g.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Jul 11th, 2013 at 03:11 PM.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  8. #128
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I'm enjoying this debate by the way, and hope you are too!
    I was until the server went down!

  9. #129
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    No, I remember on that draft thing Stefanski was REALLY pushing for Ross, with Casey in agreement. BC was basically like "I was all in for Barnes and didn't bother scouting anyone else so whatever, take him."

    If anything, Ross was definitely Stefanski's pick. It was Stefanski that wanted Ross over Lamb or Rivers because the two of them can't handle contact.
    That is so true. They play very soft. It doesn't show during summer league, but in regular season lamb and rivers are horrific, they shy away from contact all the time. One thing i like about Ross is that he invites contact, he likes dunking on guys and he leans into his defender when he goes up for a layup or a floater.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  10. #130
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    No need to worry about my future, I do pretty damn well. Also no need to take anything I say personally. I try my best to not offend people so I do it's not meant that way.

    Lets try this yet another way. So my point at the start of all this was that Ross as well as DD have not shown that they are anything special. Well neither has Waiters imo despite being a starter. Nor did DD in his first season though I beleive he may have started many games. So what I'm trying to say is that it's has nothing to do with being a starter or coming off the bench. Ross has yet to show me that he can be anything more than what we see in DD as a player thus far.
    I get what you're saying, but I don't fully agree. Ross has actually showed some signs that he can be special (more than DD). Maybe not perennial all-star special, but he has some very interesting tools for a player at his stage in development. Is he special now? Of course not. But part of my argument is that even Lillard, who would even probably have a secure role, even as a backup, in Toronto, would look a lot different in a different situation.

    I'd argue that Ross would have shown better individual growth with more minutes. But given the team mandate, that was not an option for Casey. I'm sure you'd have a much different opinion of him had he been force fed 25-30 mpg, and ended up putting up better numbers. He has great fluidity, both in his shot and his movements. He has good natural instincts, always attacking in the open court (or when a lane opens up), but also seeing his teammates when easy passes are there. He obviously has freakish athleticism. He's the best wing athlete the Raptors have had since Carter. He has good defensive instincts as well. He puts these things together, and he can be a pretty special player.

    So I guess my question is, what does someone have to show you to make you think they could be special? And what is special? Is that limited to franchise-calibre/perennial all-star type players? Or do you also accept fringe all-stars à la Caron Butler types, or Luol Deng types, or JR Smith types, etc....
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Jul 11th, 2013 at 04:54 PM.

  11. #131
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    That is so true. They play very soft. It doesn't show during summer league, but in regular season lamb and rivers are horrific, they shy away from contact all the time. One thing i like about Ross is that he invites contact, he likes dunking on guys and he leans into his defender when he goes up for a layup or a floater.
    I disagree Ross is soft too. He will only drive when he has an open dunk. Wouldn't say he invest contact.

  12. #132
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I disagree Ross is soft too. He will only drive when he has an open dunk. Wouldn't say he invest contact.
    Lol no he isn't. He barely even had chances to drive because he was utilized as a 3pt shooter. But when he did, he converted most of the time
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  13. #133
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  14. #134
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Lol no he isn't. He barely even had chances to drive because he was utilized as a 3pt shooter. But when he did, he converted most of the time
    That's a cop out. You think Casey would get upset with him being aggressive? He took a lot of contested jump shots.

  15. #135
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    That's a cop out. You think Casey would get upset with him being aggressive? He took a lot of contested jump shots.
    Casey barely let him play...
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  16. #136
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    Give Ross minutes and he'll perform. Kids got talent.

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  18. #137
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm sorry but in my opinion the Raptors are much more than Valanciunas being good to be taking Miami to game 7 in the Eastern Conference Finals.

    George might have shot 42% from the floor but he shot 45.7% on 2pt FG compared to DeRozan's 46.3%. The difference in shooting is George takes 5.5 extra 3pt attempts per 48 minutes. As for the turnovers, that tends to happen to great players: LBJ 3 TO/g, Durant 3.5 TO/g.
    Kevin Durant scores 28 points per game and Lebron averages 7.3 assists. Plus they have both done have PER's near at around 30. Paul George was 16.8 last season, lower than Gay's PER in Toronto (17.2). What I'm getting at is last year's Paul George was not a significantly better player than last year's Rudy Gay and if you look at the rest of that Pacers squad and look at our team today, the only glaring spot where they are better than us right now is center. Derozan is very different than Stevenson but i wouldn't say Stevenson is better, Lowry is better than George Hill, Amir Johnson is not as good as David West, especially on offense, but the gap isn't huge and Amir closes it a bit more every year. Depth-wise we have their old back power forward, and Novak and Ross should also work well.
    The only aspect where they may have a big advantage is coaching...

    So yah, I think we are Jonas becoming an all-star and Casey spontaneously becoming a great coach away from going deep into the playoffs with a similar model to the Pacers.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

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  20. #138
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Busy day at work today so didn't get a chance to follow the thread closely.. but when comparing Indiana and Toronto's rosters you have to compare the defense of both teams.

    Defense is Indiana's bread and butter. Hibbert is the perfect anchor for that team. JV is still 2-3 years away from being a legitimate anchor for Toronto. I have faith he will get there, but it probably won't happen next year either.

    George/Hill/Stephenson are all better defenders than Gay/Lowry/DD as well.

    Could Toronto get to Indiana's level? I believe so, but I think there needs to be some roster movement for it to be close (ie, DD should not be a Raptor).

  21. #139
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    I think the Raptors are more offensively equipped than the Pacers. Valanciunas is going to be a wayy better two way player than Hibbert i guarantee you that
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  22. #140
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    I can't wait for summer league. A few monster games from JV should get the fans going. If he turns into a beast this season the Raptors are going to be pretty damn good. I don't think it's such a long shot considering his lifelong domination of international competition.

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