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Changing Circumstances: A Tanking Argument

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  • #31
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You should revisit 2006-07 celtics season for Ainge.
    Agreed.

    While tanking can be part of a rebuild, it shouldn't be thought of as the rebuild itself.

    The Celtics tanked, and then used that to rebuild through trades.

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    • #32
      Tank Talk SO Ridiculous

      thead wrote: View Post
      Preface: I am not a fan of tanking in the least. I think it cheapens the sport and I wish it wasn't an option. However, recent events have forced me to re-examine my view of this.

      Part A: No Tank You

      Cleveland: is looking to acquire Andrew Bynum and other moves show this is a team that is interested in winning now. Their GM has announced that they do not want to be in the lottery any longer.

      Boston: Has sent strong signals that they are not interested in tanking but rather retooling around Rondo/Bradley/Green/Sully/

      Bucks: Not interested in tanking. They are looking to acquire Teague or keep Jennings. Signed OJ Mayo and they still have Ilyasova and Sanders to provide an inside out punch from the 4/5 position.

      Atlanta: Does not appear interested in the tank is going out of its way to gain talent...and until they drop Horford no tank is happening there. Oh and the adding of Millsap suggests more second round playoff exits for Atlanta

      Washington: Wall/Beal/Porter is a young group that will start climbing the ladder this season, tanking will not sit well with a soon to be extended John Wall.

      Portland: Will be taking a significant stride this year as their PG takes another leap.

      Hornets: with a healthy AD, and adding all Jrue Holiday no longer want a piece of this sweet sweet 14 draft class.

      Detroit: When they signed Josh Smith it was a pretty good indication that they were done losing. They are now looking to climb the ladder as well

      Charlotte: signing Al Jefferson has Charlotte primed to move into the dreaded 7 - 11 category, unless they follow that up with other moves.

      Part B - Fuggedaboutit

      The following teams are not even remotely interested in tanking

      Lakers, Clippers, Houston, Miami, New York, Brooklyn, Indiana, Chicago, Golden State, Memphis, San Antonio, OKC, Minnesota.

      Part C - This fence is making my balls hurt

      The following are teams that see the writing on the wall and finally blow it up and tank.

      Denver: They lost...Iggy, Masai, Karl...among others... They have the pieces right now to be another 7 - 11 team. I think they might be taking the view that the 7 - 11 is a ladder and not a well. could go either way.

      Dallas: For the second straight year they have failed to sign a single big name. Dirk is getting older and Calderon is their big FA get. Word is they are still on the hunt, and so I will not place them in the tank train yet but they gotta pull off something and soon or else it becomes a very real possibility.


      Part D - Organic Growth Year (We love that phrase don't we fellas?)

      Orlando, with Tobias Harris, Oladipo, Nicholson, and Vuvecic they look like a promising team on the rise. I think they truly are looking to get better this year and they have four very good pieces to do it with. I expect them to be a 7 - 11 team as well (probably closer to 11) but where as Denver might be looking down a well, Orlando does appear to have a ladder in front of them.

      Utah: Out of the shadow of Millsap and Jefferson, Kanter and Favors now have a big chance to shine. Much like Orlando though this is going to be a step up the ladder kind of year. I see them having about the same result as Portland did last year with a young talented PG learning (fucking up a lot) his way into the league. This will likely put them as high as ten and low as 12 in the west.

      Sacramento: substitute names with Orlando and same deal. 7 - 11 will be a ladder for them. They have a serious head coach now and it they will competitive. I'd say they land right outside the playoffs in 10th

      Part E - Enemy Armor Incoming! Tank Alert

      Philly: The only team in the league that I can see is so obviously tanking it hurts, is Philadephia. Traded an All Star for a guy coming off ANOTHER ACL injury. He does have huge upside but likely won't start getting noticed until the end of the season.

      Part F - I Seriously Don't Know What The Fuck They Are Doing

      Phoenix - ?????????????? retankibuilding? tanktooling? getting worse through the draft? collecting assets? They got Eric Bledsoe to start...maybe...Channing Frye has heart issues, Marcin Gortat doesn't wanna be there. They picked up twins for fun. Kendall Marshall is now a 3rd sting lottery pick??? Someone else can take a crack at this one.

      Which brings us to the Raptors....

      PG - doesn't make team mates better
      SG - Can't shoot 7 million dollar player making 10
      SF - Can't shoot 12 million dollar player making 20
      PF - No back to the basket low post threat - gotta backup wearing a starter hat.
      C - well 1 out of 5 ain't bad!

      Our ceiling with this current group is a second round playoff exit. Which I would love to watch. Believe me...it would be a thing of beauty to watch important games being won. However. If we are only truly racing one team to the bottom, and there are 5 guys that could raise you to another level... I hate to say it but I maybe, just maybe I could be talked into tanking.



      While an interesting post, why do you decimate a young team that has not had a chance to play a full season to have a 25% chance to get a player like Wiggins.

      Even if we play to lose and beat the odds to select Wiggins....how many years are we away to get back to where we may be today. Even Lebron had to be surrounded by other great players to win a championship.

      Comment


      • #33
        "Get back to where we are today"? We're a 34 win team, where exactly is that?

        Comment


        • #34
          Raptorfanatic wrote: View Post
          While an interesting post, why do you decimate a young team that has not had a chance to play a full season to have a 25% chance to get a player like Wiggins.

          Even if we play to lose and beat the odds to select Wiggins....how many years are we away to get back to where we may be today. Even Lebron had to be surrounded by other great players to win a championship.
          Dude the team was 11 games under .500 last year. We're not breaking up a 55 win team on a whim here. Patching together a 30-35 win team is not exactly hard... We could probably do it next summer even if we stripped everything down this year.

          Comment


          • #35
            Raptorfanatic wrote: View Post
            While an interesting post, why do you decimate a young team that has not had a chance to play a full season to have a 25% chance to get a player like Wiggins.

            Even if we play to lose and beat the odds to select Wiggins....how many years are we away to get back to where we may be today. Even Lebron had to be surrounded by other great players to win a championship.
            First its not just about getting Wiggins. I think this is absolutely imperitive to any 'tanking' debate. Wiggins, at this point in time, just happens to be the pinnacle/ideal/optimal reward for tanking. There are numerous other highly sought after draft picks coming up, and should all else fail (or something else change/become available while the team is tanking) a high 1st round draft pick is always a very valuable commodity. As a bonus, assuming the tank is done 'right', it should also add additional cheap/young players and additional cap space (I will say though, doing it 'right' is a rather loose term).

            Secondly, where the Raptors are is a rather easy place to get to. Even if we assume that the Raps are a playoff bound team, over half the league makes the playoffs every year. If we look at were Toronto is record wise (34 wins), thats an extremely easy point to get to.

            That said, it will most likely take numerous years to rebuild. However, the difference is its done with the purpose of increasing the Raptors ceiling. Giving the team what should be a greater opportunity to become a contender, than the proverbial 7-11/mediocre/treadmill (or whatever label one wants to use) that they stand at today and what looks like the near future.

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            • #36
              Raptorfanatic wrote: View Post
              While an interesting post, why do you decimate a young team that has not had a chance to play a full season to have a 25% chance to get a player like Wiggins.
              Because it isn't just about Wiggins for me. There are, according to experts, 5 Franchise guys in this draft. So if we play bad enough we have a 100% chance of landing a franchise player.
              For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

              Comment


              • #37
                thead wrote: View Post
                Because it isn't just about Wiggins for me. There are, according to experts, 5 Franchise guys in this draft. So if we play bad enough we have a 100% chance of landing a franchise player.
                I don't believe for a second that there are 5 franchise guys in this draft. I think there is a lot of hyperbole. The 2012 draft was supposed to be amazing as well and it's been pretty meh so far. Guys are already slipping in the 2014 mock draft and the college season hasn't yet begun.

                But I'm swinging my stance on the tank/anti-tank debate and would prefer to start over with a new GM that actually has a vision. Draft picks (especially high lottery picks) are very good assets (probably the best next to a superstar but there are only 3/4 of those to go around).

                High picks can land you very good super-star caliber type players.. either by attracting a superstar to play with that high pick (like Paul in LAC) or by trading those picks to get a really good player (like Harden in Houston or Allen in Boston).

                Since the team is heading towards mediocrity (7-11) it's best to get high value assets now as opposed to later.

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                • #38
                  planetmars wrote: View Post
                  But I'm swinging my stance on the tank/anti-tank debate and would prefer to start over with a new GM that actually has a vision.
                  After a little more than six weeks, let it be known that planetmars was the first person to call for Masai Ujiri's ouster.
                  For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                  • #39
                    thead wrote: View Post
                    After a little more than six weeks, let it be known that planetmars was the first person to call for Masai Ujiri's ouster.
                    lol - yup that's exactly what I meant

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                    • #40
                      thead wrote: View Post
                      Harden is a star, he needed his own team. He got far more for him than we did for Bosh.

                      As for questioning his talent evaluation? He has built a perennial playoff powerhouse mostly through the draft. I don't get why anyone thinks they have the right to shit on this man. He is a top GM in the league period.
                      I didn't shit on him. I said he makes mistakes too, in reference to your reverence of him, period.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        p00ka wrote: View Post
                        I didn't shit on him. I said he makes mistakes too, in reference to your reverence of him, period.
                        I don't think it's fair to call the Harden trade a mistake, because Presti knew perfectly well that he was gambling. He was specifically gambling that Harden had already hit his ceiling and that given more minutes would not turn into a superstar, and that he would get an equivalent return on Jeremy Lamb, our pick which became Steven Martin, and the Dallas pick OKC has forthcoming.

                        His return on the trade wasn't bad at all - Kevin Martin was a major factor in getting the team the #1 seed, Lamb shows signs of being a legit sixth man option or even a starting SG, Martin is impressing in summer league and hopefully will replace Kendrick Perkins in the long term, and the Dallas pick might show up as soon as this year if Dallas makes a good run (which they most likely won't, granted). So not the BEST payout, but far from a bad one.

                        And both Durant and Westbrook got better because they got the opportunity to use the looks which Harden was taking and they made the most of them, so there's a reasonable argument that Harden was superfluous on OKC because he excelled in Houston as the primary option who got the most looks, and as good as Harden is, he's not the primary option when you have Kevin Durant and never will be because Durant is simply better than Harden is.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                          "Get back to where we are today"? We're a 34 win team, where exactly is that?
                          Every time I read this "34 win team" thing, I do a big *head shake*. That's what happened last year, not where the team sits right now. There are so many reasons why this should be a better team, and different than the one that struggled through last year, that I can't imagine people ignoring them.

                          I'm not going to attempt to point them all out, but one of the big things tankers speak of is the need to develop young players, and have them grow together. There's development, and growth to be expected all over this team, and leaving it exactly as is (pending moves by Ujiri) makes it not the same team it was last year. Not comparing teams or specific talents, but as an example of what I speak of, in KDs 2nd year and Westbrook's 1st, OKC was a 23 win team. Were they a 23 win team the following year? No, they won 50 games.

                          Do I suggest the Raps can make a similar leap? No, I'm saying the team coming into next season is not the team that started last season, for many reasons, including the development of our young players.

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                          • #43
                            magoon wrote: View Post
                            I don't think it's fair to call the Harden trade a mistake, because Presti knew perfectly well that he was gambling. He was specifically gambling that Harden had already hit his ceiling and that given more minutes would not turn into a superstar, and that he would get an equivalent return on Jeremy Lamb, our pick which became Steven Martin, and the Dallas pick OKC has forthcoming.

                            His return on the trade wasn't bad at all - Kevin Martin was a major factor in getting the team the #1 seed, Lamb shows signs of being a legit sixth man option or even a starting SG, Martin is impressing in summer league and hopefully will replace Kendrick Perkins in the long term, and the Dallas pick might show up as soon as this year if Dallas makes a good run (which they most likely won't, granted). So not the BEST payout, but far from a bad one.

                            And both Durant and Westbrook got better because they got the opportunity to use the looks which Harden was taking and they made the most of them, so there's a reasonable argument that Harden was superfluous on OKC because he excelled in Houston as the primary option who got the most looks, and as good as Harden is, he's not the primary option when you have Kevin Durant and never will be because Durant is simply better than Harden is.
                            IMO, you need to get past this belief that you know what's in the minds and hearts of people you only know through the media.

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                            • #44
                              The recent signing suggests that they're not tanking.

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                              • #45
                                Apollo wrote: View Post
                                The recent signing suggests that they're not tanking.
                                Nope. And a press conference is not usual for a player they are looking to ship out:


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