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Thread: Changing Circumstances: A Tanking Argument

  1. #81
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    If only we won 1/3 of the games we lost in the last 2 mins last year, we where playoff bound
    Having RG for a full year from the start, with our present roster, our team is playoff bound----of course baring any injuries

  2. #82
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    lol, Masai's words putting a damper on the tank excitement? Good!

  3. #83
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    lol, Masai's words putting a damper on the tank excitement? Good!
    +1.
    Good. Lets see what this squad does for the first 30-40 games and we can reassess at the trade deadline.

    I feel like they should still be looking for a legit backup PG. who can we get for 2 mil
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    lol, Masai's words putting a damper on the tank excitement? Good!
    No, more the anti-tank brigade deciding that Masai publicly saying what he has to say means anything at all. He also called Bargnani a fine athlete who just needed a change of scenery, you know.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I wonder at what point next season MU would consider it a lost season?

    If the team goes 5-15 in their first 20 should he rebuild? What about 10-10? Or 12-8?

    There is a fine line about being bad, mediocre and good. At what point does he cross the line without falling into the 7-11 trap?
    Still too early to say. Depends if we get a brutal early schedule or not, how our early matchups against the other contending teams fall, et cetera.

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Every time I read this "34 win team" thing, I do a big *head shake*. That's what happened last year, not where the team sits right now. There are so many reasons why this should be a better team, and different than the one that struggled through last year, that I can't imagine people ignoring them.

    I'm not going to attempt to point them all out, but one of the big things tankers speak of is the need to develop young players, and have them grow together. There's development, and growth to be expected all over this team, and leaving it exactly as is (pending moves by Ujiri) makes it not the same team it was last year. Not comparing teams or specific talents, but as an example of what I speak of, in KDs 2nd year and Westbrook's 1st, OKC was a 23 win team. Were they a 23 win team the following year? No, they won 50 games.

    Do I suggest the Raps can make a similar leap? No, I'm saying the team coming into next season is not the team that started last season, for many reasons, including the development of our young players.
    Well said

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Ujiri is not a Tanker. Even if he did/does decide to trade Gay, he'd try to bring back valuable pieces that will still help this team compete like he did with Melo.
    in a great interview he suggests it may be bad karma to tank

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    Charlotte won't even be 7-11, I bet they'll still be the 3rd or 2nd last in the east.
    Atlanta will be a first round exit at best.
    Utah will suck dick.
    Sacramento will suck dick.
    So will Pheonix.
    We need use the backs of the dick sucking teams as a step ladder to winning culture which will better ensure THEEE.... 'organic growth' which will attract other players.
    Rudy can shoot.

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    I agree with all the other stuff I didn't mention. I disagree however with how you under analyzed all the other teams and over analyzed the Raptors saying basically 4 of our five starters are shit at what they do lol

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    This whole "7-11" is a little bit misleading; Indiana finished 8th 2 years ago. The last two years they've finished 3rd.

    So to say that if you land in the 8th spot, its some sort of Quick Sand is a little bit silly in my opinion.

    Once you make the playoffs, you must obviously then look to improve, but I'd say Indiana are contenders, and they did it by just slowly building and improving year by year.
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    lol, Masai's words putting a damper on the tank excitement? Good!
    Not really.


    http://www.nba.com/raptors/video/originals/index.html

    From Masai interview July 10th, last 60 seconds or so:

    - no expectations
    - let it play, win-win, whatever happens it is a win for us
    - which ever way it goes we are happy with it as long as we grow
    - need to show growth
    - we have to show passion
    - need to show direction
    - basically whichever way it goes win-win for us


    So to me it seems clear that the roster is likely to stay pretty much as is unless crazy offer comes in and that creates a win-win:
    1) if the team plays well and shows they are more than a bubble playoff team, great
    2) but if the team struggles and shows they are bubble team at best there are some valuable assets to deal and that is also great.


    If you are pro-tank then this just means you are going to need to be patient because, again assuming you are pro tank, you already know the end result. Delaying until December/early 2014 and being patient will allow other teams to figure out where they are and, if they think a Raptor player could help get them to where they want to be, come with offers much better than Stuckey and Charlie V for the best player on the team.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    This whole "7-11" is a little bit misleading; Indiana finished 8th 2 years ago. The last two years they've finished 3rd.

    So to say that if you land in the 8th spot, its some sort of Quick Sand is a little bit silly in my opinion.

    Once you make the playoffs, you must obviously then look to improve, but I'd say Indiana are contenders, and they did it by just slowly building and improving year by year.
    It all depends on what 7-11 is for your team.

    For Indiana, with young talent like George and Stephenson mixed with established talent and a strong C, it was a stepping stone.

    For Milwaukee, as an example, it was a ceiling.

    The Bulls and OKC were the same way a few years ago as well.


    The question for Toronto is this a stepping stone or ceiling?
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  14. #93
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    Nailed it!

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It all depends on what 7-11 is for your team.

    For Indiana, with young talent like George and Stephenson mixed with established talent and a strong C, it was a stepping stone.

    For Milwaukee, as an example, it was a ceiling.

    The Bulls and OKC were the same way a few years ago as well.


    The question for Toronto is this a stepping stone or ceiling?
    Great explanation.

    In an attempt to answer the question, I would suggest that Gay, Lowry and Amir are our three best players. That is, our three best players who are already in their prime. If the team is to lean on them the most this season, I would think 7-11 would be the Raptors ceiling.

    On the other hand if Jonas, Ross, DeRozan take huge steps this season (and next season), then we might consider the Raptors as a stepping stone to greatness. But IMO, this seems less likely.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It all depends on what 7-11 is for your team.

    For Indiana, with young talent like George and Stephenson mixed with established talent and a strong C, it was a stepping stone.

    For Milwaukee, as an example, it was a ceiling.

    The Bulls and OKC were the same way a few years ago as well.


    The question for Toronto is this a stepping stone or ceiling?
    Young talent like...Derozan and Ross?

    A strong center...like Valanciunas?

    Just saying, there are more similaritites than differences between where we are and where indi was two years ago. We just need someone to step up and be our Paul George (RudyGay, DD) and have Val keep developping to give us that inside presence.
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    You throw in the improvements of Ross, possibly Gay with his corrected Vision, Lowry, and DeRozan. You got possibly 6 to 8 extra wins just from internal development. I wouldn't be sad if we ended up 8th but i wanna be somewhere between 5 - 7, but any playoff spot is awesome at this point. This City is killing for playoff basketball
    i keep reading all the tanking talk and can't help but think that i wouldn't be shocked AT ALL if we won the atlantic division next season.

    look at the state of the atlantic... it's once again a bloody mess... much like it was the last time we won it.

    Philly - CLEARLY in rebuild mode.. not a tank mode, but im pretty sure it's a conscious decision to nurture their young talent while snatching up lottery picks along the way... they're a couple years away from being legit again

    Boston - same deal as Philly, except they do have a legit star (Rondo). I can't see them being very good for at least another season

    New York - if getting rid of Bargs was "Addition by Subtraction"... getting him is "Subtraction by Addition"... and i can see them giving him some BC-esque "oppurtunity" to validate his pay cheque... just having him on the payroll, you might as well wear a turret as a hat... cuz you're a tank.

    Brooklyn looks like the only team in the Atlantic that is actually going to be TRYING next season... and something about that team just rubs me the wrong way... i keep getting a Lakers last season kinda vibe from them... like everything SHOULD work for them, but it's probably going to be a horrific mess

  18. #97
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Young talent like...Derozan and Ross?

    A strong center...like Valanciunas?

    Just saying, there are more similaritites than differences between where we are and where indi was two years ago. We just need someone to step up and be our Paul George (RudyGay, DD) and have Val keep developping to give us that inside presence.
    I don't put DeRozan or Ross anywhere near the same level of talent as George. Nowhere. George has range, defends, rebounds, creates and is one year younger with one year less experience in the league with DeRozan having over 50% more minutes played.

    George had just as much of an impact in his rookie season in nearly 1800 less minutes than DD had in his best season (last year and his 4th in the league) based on WP.

    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/co...r=1&player_ids[]=318&player_ids[]=113&utf8=%E2%9C%93


    Bold: Sadly it is not that easy. Then we need a Stephenson, an all-star PF, depth on the bench. I think hoping two guys with 4 full seasons and 7 full seasons under their belt to step up and become what a guy with just 3 years experience is missing the entire point of the discussion: ceiling vs. stepping stone.
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  20. #98
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Young talent like...Derozan and Ross?
    A strong center...like Valanciunas?

    Just saying, there are more similaritites than differences between where we are and where indi was two years ago. We just need someone to step up and be our Paul George (RudyGay, DD) and have Val keep developping to give us that inside presence.
    Young, yes. Neither have shown anything resembling exceptional talent though. DeRozan isn't going to improve by leaps and bouds anymore so outside of tightening up his game he is what we've seen so far. Ross still has the potential to be that guy you are referring to, but he didn't exactly grab the opportunitiy that was given to him last season. My hope lies more with Ross at this point, but he needs to show that he wants it. He's gotta go at DeRozan hard in practice and take the starting role from him.

  21. #99
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    i keep reading all the tanking talk and can't help but think that i wouldn't be shocked AT ALL if we won the atlantic division next season.

    look at the state of the atlantic... it's once again a bloody mess... much like it was the last time we won it.

    Philly - CLEARLY in rebuild mode.. not a tank mode, but im pretty sure it's a conscious decision to nurture their young talent while snatching up lottery picks along the way... they're a couple years away from being legit again

    Boston - same deal as Philly, except they do have a legit star (Rondo). I can't see them being very good for at least another season

    New York - if getting rid of Bargs was "Addition by Subtraction"... getting him is "Subtraction by Addition"... and i can see them giving him some BC-esque "oppurtunity" to validate his pay cheque... just having him on the payroll, you might as well wear a turret as a hat... cuz you're a tank.

    Brooklyn looks like the only team in the Atlantic that is actually going to be TRYING next season... and something about that team just rubs me the wrong way... i keep getting a Lakers last season kinda vibe from them... like everything SHOULD work for them, but it's probably going to be a horrific mess
    I don't see Bargnani getting anything close to the lengthy leash he got here. If he sucks from the start, expect him to be in Woodson's doghouse from the start. The Knicks won't be sacrificing their season to justify Bargnani.

    But to your overall point, it wouldn't surprise me to see the Raps 3rd in the Atlantic
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Young talent like...Derozan and Ross?

    A strong center...like Valanciunas?

    Just saying, there are more similaritites than differences between where we are and where indi was two years ago. We just need someone to step up and be our Paul George (RudyGay, DD) and have Val keep developping to give us that inside presence.
    Personally, I don't really understand the Indiana comparisons. Indiana is one of the best defensive teams in the league. They have two all-stars in Paul George and Roy Hibbert. A former All-star in David West and an All-NBA 3rd team player in Paul George. Rudy Gay is going to enter next season at 27. He's been in this league for the past 7 years and has not improved since his 2nd year in the league. Demar Derozan just finished his 4th year in the league and still can't shoot consistently or dribble. Unless you believe that Demar and Rudy are going to have breakout years next year and that the team will dramatically improve on defense and be one of the best defensive teams in the league, I don't see the Indiana comparisons. Potential does have a shelf life.

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