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Thread: DeMar's 3 pt shot (and what it means for the Raptors)

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    Lots of updates from summer league. KL has slimmed down. RG has bulked up. Some tall white guys got engaged (here's lookin' at you, MVP). But maybe one of the most significant possible improvements this year won't be known for a while. A central tenet regarding the failure of the construction of this roster is that we have two expensive shooting guards who can't shoot. But what if DD does improve that 3 point shot this year? Everyone hoped he would develop a better jump shot after last off season and he did. A bit of a bump from 10-15 ft (37.9 to 39.1) and more of a jump from 16-23 ft (35 to 40%). If he showed a similar improvement in 3pt% (28.6) as he did in long 2's last year, he would be up to nearly 33%. That's not Novakian but it's the break even point. High hopes indeed but it's possible. If that's the case, would he be considered a legitimate starting 2 guard? Does it make his pairing with Gay that much easier? Does it make everyone else's inside game stronger? Because then you see a team forming.
    Lowry should be a legitimate starting PG. Rudy, though paid too much is a legitimate staring SF. JV should be the answer at the 5. The 4? well, if not legitimate, it's not far off. This might be a team worth keeping together. And that's what makes it interesting. Because, if there is no improvement in his 3pt%, then we do have a poorly constructed team. That may be one of the things that becomes clear in the first part of the season that helps Masai decide on whether to grow or blow. Simplistic maybe, but it makes sense.

    http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?...eMar%20DeRozan
    I think we'd be better off trying Ross at the two beside Gay and move Derozan for picks and cap space. I think Ross is already a better 3 point shooter and is probably going to be better defensively in the long run because he's faster.

    Don't get me wrong, I like DD and I'm a fan of his game. I think he has the potential to be a good player on a number of teams, especially one that has a 3 who is more of a thre point shooter, but expecting him to suddenly become the two we need is a little far fetched. It's not just his three point shot that needs to get better it's his passing, his off ball movement, and most importantly, his defense. His biggest value right now is that he is a guy who can kill it in the midrange and in the post and give you 20 points a night...which is exatly what Gay does. If Gay is the number one option, why do we want a guy beside him that wants to play in the same areas? It will just lead to bad spacing and close the floor up.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

  2. #22
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    Shooting is practically the easiest of all basketball skills to learn. Anyone can learn at any point in their career, I just don't think Demar ever made it a goal of his to become very consistent from 3.

    Demar is the type of guy that has to rely on his work ethic to get better because he is not as naturally talented as some players. And each off season he has chosen one thing to improve on and he has succeeded each time.
    By my count, this is at least the 2nd offseason (possibly 3rd) where DeRozan has publically stated that his offseason priority was improving his 3pt shot. As a 4-year veteran who has been a starter since day-1, played heavy minutes for the past 3 seasons and been the #1b scoring option for the past 2 seasons (#1 option whenever Bargnani was injured, prior to acquiring Gay), I seriously doubt we'll ever see DeRozan make any significant, sustainable improvements in any area of his game.

    The bigger problem for me, as some others have pointed out, is that even if he does improve his 3pt shot, he'll still have many weaknesses in his game. If you dig deeper into the basic stats (ie: 18.1 PPG, but needed 15.0 FGA per game - volume scorer) or delve into the world of advanced stats (many others have already done this in detail, in multiple threads), it becomes pretty apparent that DeRozan is an inefficient volume scorer with a preference for the worst shot in basketball (long 2pt jumper). Any eye-test shows that he's a terrible defender (usually tasked with guarding the weaker opposing wing), which is yet another glaring weakness in a league becoming wing/perimeter dominant.

    When you further factor in his $9.5M salary and the fact that Gay makes everything he brings to the table redundant, it's hard to obejectively find any benefit in DeRozan that isn't rooted in hope and faith - sounds a lot like what fans of Bargnani used to argue. DeRozan is a great guy, a great teammate, a hardworker, and he loves Toronto... unfortunately, his game is best suited to be a 6th man scorer making MLE money, rather than a franchise cornerstone making $9.5M.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Demar's biggest flaws (as I see it) is not his 3p% but his inability to make unassisted shots and poor D.

    T.Ross doesn't fit the bill on both accounts.

    next.

  4. #24
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    demar is a power two guard who gets to line at at top 10 nba pace. He's got better at passing and reading the defense and has slowly gotten better each of his first 4 years. He's still 23 years old, which would make him a second year player if he stayed in school. You guys are very closed minded on this board to think that he's peaked. There's lots of players who improved there three point shooting from 23 years old-25 years old. This will not define him as a player. I really like DD post game and rather have him post up, penetrate or shoot open mid range shots (as he has a real nice touch from mid range as long as he doesn't consistently settle for this shot). I've watched a guy named wade for many years dominate without a 3 point shot so if DD improves that shot great but it won't define him as a player. He's a power two who can dunk on people, post up and has started to get a better feel for the game. Just look at his steady improvement in assists each year.
    Basketball is about playing the game the right way. Teams turn down good shots for great shots and play good team basketball. On defense your aware of your strengths and weakness of the opposition (even your own teammates), anticipate the next play and play aggressive (rotations). This has nothing to do with demars 3 point shot and if he becomes a 35% 3 point shooter it will just be gravy too his french fries.


    09-'10 TOR 77 65 21.6 3.3-6.6 .498 0.1-0.2 .250 1.9-2.5 .763 0.9 2.0 2.9 0.7 0.2 0.6 2.3 0.8 8.6
    '10-'11 TOR 82 82 34.8 6.6-14.1 .467 0.1-0.6 .096 4.0-4.9 .813 0.9 2.9 3.8 1.8 0.4 1.0 2.6 1.8 17.2
    '11-'12 TOR 63 63 35.0 6.0-14.3 .422 0.4-1.5 .261 4.3-5.3 .810 0.6 2.7 3.3 2.0 0.3 0.8 2.6 2.0 16.7
    '12-'13 TOR 82 82 36.7 6.7-15.0 .445 0.4-1.5 .283 4.3-5.2 .831 0.6 3.3 3.9 2.5 0.3 0.9 2.1 1.8 18.1

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    I think the people who say DeMar can't become a good three point shooter should look at Rip Hamilton

    - If you discount 01-02 where he shot just 42 threes (tiny sample), here's how he shot the three ball his first few years:

    28-77 (36%, relatively small sample)
    40-146 (27%)
    32-119 (27%)
    18-68 (27%)
    36-118 (31%)

    Mediocre 3PT shooting numbers. And just like DeMar, Rip was an 18ppg 4rpg 3apg type of player during this period (Rip scored slightly more because he took more shots), operating primarily from mid-range while also getting about 5 or 6 attempts from the FT Line).

    Rip was able to have the following solid and/or STELLAR 3PT shooting seasons later in his career (and he was 21 when he entered the league not 19 like DeMar).

    05-06: 55-120 (46%)
    06-07: 44-129 (34%)
    07-08: 67-141 (44%)
    08-09: 70-190 (37%)
    10-11: 55-144 (38%)

    His improved shooting allowed him to be a 20-4-4 type player and an all-star. There's no reason why DeMar can't get to this level, their playing styles in their first 4 years are eerily similar. Both excelled from mid-range and were adept at getting to the line and converting at a high rate (80%+ for both). I think DD actually has a higher ceiling because of his athleticism (which Rip really could not compare to) and size (he outweighs Rip by over 20lbs). Rip rarely operated out of the post and that's something DD has already started to add to his game.

    There's nothing stopping DeMar from becoming a 20+ppg 5rpg 4-5apg type of player who shoots 45-35-85 percentage wise. It's a matter of slowly adding pieces to his game. That would be an absolute bargain for 9M a year, especially on a guy who has missed just 8 games in his 4-year career.
    Last edited by Xixak; Fri Jul 12th, 2013 at 12:59 PM.

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  8. #26
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    The same arguments from the same people OVER and OVER..... I'm obviously more optimistic about DD's ability to improve than others. I think if he can improve to 32-35% 3 pt shooter this coming season, he will be VERY valuable to us.

    I have no doubt that it IS possible for him to improve his 3 pt shooting and defence and i think for those that continue to believe the opposite...... wait and see.

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  10. #27
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    Xixak good analyisis: Current production is 18 points 4 rebounds and 2.5 assists.

    Potential 20-5-4- pretty good player. Compare the peoples salaries who have this type of production. To me its about playing smart, effecient and tough basketball. Thats what will make the raps a winner. Not his 3 point shooting.

  11. #28
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    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    Xixak good analyisis: Current production is 18 points 4 rebounds and 2.5 assists.

    Potential 20-5-4- pretty good player. Compare the peoples salaries who have this type of production. To me its about playing smart, effecient and tough basketball. Thats what will make the raps a winner. Not his 3 point shooting.
    There's very few shooting guards currently that put up those numbers:

    Kobe Bryant - 30.45M (27-6-6)
    James Harden - 13.7M (26-6-5)
    Dwyane Wade - 18.5M (21-5-5)

    DeMar would be an absolute steal for 9M if he can JUST make that improvement to his 3PT shot. Becoming a good defender would just make it even sweeter.

  12. #29
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    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    demar is a power two guard who gets to line at at top 10 nba pace. He's got better at passing and reading the defense and has slowly gotten better each of his first 4 years. He's still 23 years old, which would make him a second year player if he stayed in school. You guys are very closed minded on this board to think that he's peaked. There's lots of players who improved there three point shooting from 23 years old-25 years old. This will not define him as a player. I really like DD post game and rather have him post up, penetrate or shoot open mid range shots (as he has a real nice touch from mid range as long as he doesn't consistently settle for this shot). I've watched a guy named wade for many years dominate without a 3 point shot so if DD improves that shot great but it won't define him as a player. He's a power two who can dunk on people, post up and has started to get a better feel for the game. Just look at his steady improvement in assists each year.
    The reason why DeMar's 3 pt shot is such a big deal is because DeMar is a 2 guard that doesn't bring anything else to the table besides his scoring. He can't pass, rebound, or play defense. The reason why Dwayne Wade is not defined by his 3 pt shot is because he can do all the things that DeMar can't do. Maybe its me but I feel like he's been saying the same thing for the past couple of off-seasons about needing to work on his 3 pt shot as well as his ball handling and the same thing has happened when the new season starts, little to no improvement on any of those areas. Maybe DeMar should stop talking about what he is going to work on and just do it, because so far he seems to be all talk.

  13. #30
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    Default Great post Craiger

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Speaking for myself, its not just that he doesn't have a 3pt shot. Its the lack of overall game, lack of a 'special skill' or being a 'jack of all trades', that his greatest strength is the most inefficient shot in basketball. While him improving his 3pt shot would be great, he has, in my opinion, alot more to improve on than just that.
    Great post. Its all well and good to project improvement / hope for improvement - but, statistically speaking, there is a window of time where that is, in any reasonable way, relevant.

    I don't dispute DD's reported work ethic, but as @Craiger points out, he is who he is. And who he is - is someone who needs much more than just improvement on his 3point % to make a significant impact.

  14. #31
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    Seiz it seems like your the guy who his all talk. Demar has improved his passing the assist total reflects thats. First year .7 assists a game last year 2.5 assists a game. He does have to get better defensively but I have seen some improvement in his defensive rotations and his overall defensive IQ. Wade was 21-22 when he entered the NBA not 19 like DD. Plus Wade makes 17 million a year DD makes 9 million a year. So overall DD could be considered a better value then Wade when you add in he's 8-9 years younger and is half price.

  15. #32
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    Why is everyone is so fixated on derozans three point shooting?! his game is based on ATTACKING THE RIM & GETTING TO THE LINE

    he has showed steady growth and significant improvment in that area last year. and hes a solid free throw shooter to boot. everyones so quick to write him off for his slightly below average 3 point game and not enough credit for his drive, which i would rather have him do 90% of the time. Play to your strengths, improve on ur weaknessess, but dont fixate on them.

    What we should be keeping an eye on his handles and defense. Those are fair targets to pick at of his game. anyone who shits themselves over his 3 point shooting needs to be reminded hes still only 23, a workhorse, and wants to play in our city full of haters.

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  17. #33
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    Speaking for myself, its not just that he doesn't have a 3pt shot. Its the lack of overall game, lack of a 'special skill' or being a 'jack of all trades', that his greatest strength is the most inefficient shot in basketball. While him improving his 3pt shot would be great, he has, in my opinion, alot more to improve on than just that.
    Craiger speaks some truth here but is not totally correct. DD is elite at getting the free throw line and in that he has an elite post up game for a 2 guard. He's top 10 in the league and to me that makes you elite in the NBA. Half truths go along way in argueing. I'm happy where DD is and would like to see him improve the next bit to show that he is an all around NBA performer.
    NBA management must also believe in DD as last year he was chosen to practise with best NBA players in the world. Olympic management wanted to challenge the US olympic team in practise so they brought in the best young talent in the NBA to play against the big boys. Sorry guys on this board you guys are a step below the US olympic basketball federation.

  18. #34
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    Quote jpisadummy wrote: View Post
    Why is everyone is so fixated on derozans three point shooting?! his game is based on ATTACKING THE RIM & GETTING TO THE LINE

    he has showed steady growth and significant improvment in that area last year. and hes a solid free throw shooter to boot. everyones so quick to write him off for his slightly below average 3 point game and not enough credit for his drive, which i would rather have him do 90% of the time. Play to your strengths, improve on ur weaknessess, but dont fixate on them.

    What we should be keeping an eye on his handles and defense. Those are fair targets to pick at of his game. anyone who shits themselves over his 3 point shooting needs to be reminded hes still only 23, a workhorse, and wants to play in our city full of haters.
    Speaking as one of the "haters", my concerns over DeRozan's game wouldn't be so bad in a vacuum, but the concerns get magnified because of two major factors:
    - his salary, especially in relation to the total team salary
    - the way his skills mesh with the skills brought to the table by the rest of the starting unit; the starting 5 lacks a serious 3pt threat and I think he is the most tradeable/replaceable out of DeRozan/Gay/Lowry.

    If the makeup of the starting unit was significantly different, I think DeRozan would fit better and his weaknesses wouldn't be so magnified (kinda sounds familiar to how people used to talk about Bargnani). It's much easier to trade DeRozan and replace him with a SG who brings '3 and D', than it would be to totally revamp the rest of the lineup around DeRozan. All the positives about DeRozan are exactly what I think would make him an attractive player to other teams. Between DeRozan and Gay, I think the Raptors would have a much easier time trading DeRozan (ie: age, talent, upside, salary) and would probably get as much/more for him in trade, hence my preference for trading him.

    I don't "hate" DeRozan, I actually quite like him as a person and think he's been a fantastic Raptor. I just think he's the Raptors' best trade chip and most easily replaceable starting wing.

  19. #35
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    DeMar will add it to his game next season no problem I just dont want him chucking them like crazy as he did in his 3rd season. Leave the guy focusing on his Beast moves in the post and slashing getting to the line. Nick Nurse hopefully gets DeMAr to move better off the ball he should be running backdoor more often

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    Quote Frankthetank wrote: View Post
    Seiz it seems like your the guy who his all talk. Demar has improved his passing the assist total reflects thats. First year .7 assists a game last year 2.5 assists a game. He does have to get better defensively but I have seen some improvement in his defensive rotations and his overall defensive IQ. Wade was 21-22 when he entered the NBA not 19 like DD. Plus Wade makes 17 million a year DD makes 9 million a year. So overall DD could be considered a better value then Wade when you add in he's 8-9 years younger and is half price.
    I don't remember saying he did not improve on his passing...though 2.5 assists per game is nothing to be proud about in regards to playmaking. I don't even see why you would compare Wade to DeMar, as Wade possessed more skills at 23 (his 2nd year in the league) evidenced by his 24 ppg 5.7 Rpg 6.8ast 1.1 Bpg and 1.6 spg.
    Anyways... based on what I have seen the past couple of years and the fact that DeMar will be entering his 5th season I can't really get on the whole "DeMar Will improve his 3pt shooting" train. I'll just wait and see what happens this coming season. I have ZERO expectations for him this season, so if he does improve that will be awesome, if he doesn't it's not something that will shock me. The fact is, if DeMar is the player we want him to be, he has A LOT to improve on.

  21. #37
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    I think derozan will improve his 3 point shot. he did that with his midrange last season. but i don't want him to be a ray allen. an outside shot of a kobe or lebron would be fine.

    I would rather have him improve his ball handling. he turns the ball over during crucial situations ones he gets pressured and double teamed. and maybe increase his strength so he could guard 3s if they go small ball (amir/jonas, gay/fields, gay/demar, demar/ross, lowry).

    still have high hopes for him, but he's contract just sucks (thanks a lot bc).

  22. #38
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    Pretty interesting that for a player whose game is "ATTACKING THE RIM & GETTING TO THE LINE" consistently shoots a lot more 16-23 footers than attempts at the rim, year after year. He does get to the line a lot and that probably offsets some of the disparity, but this is all besides the point. The real point is nobody wants him to attack the rim less; I'm assuming they just want him to take a step back on those long range jumpers or attack the rim instead of settling for a long two. Ironically, a better three point shot would allow him to attack the basket more often on closeouts as well.

  23. #39
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    How do these "Demar's 3 point shooting" threads keep happening?
    @jerboat

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    Quote TRX wrote: View Post
    Pretty interesting that for a player whose game is "ATTACKING THE RIM & GETTING TO THE LINE" consistently shoots a lot more 16-23 footers than attempts at the rim, year after year. He does get to the line a lot and that probably offsets some of the disparity, but this is all besides the point. The real point is nobody wants him to attack the rim less; I'm assuming they just want him to take a step back on those long range jumpers or attack the rim instead of settling for a long two. Ironically, a better three point shot would allow him to attack the basket more often on closeouts as well.
    No you are 100% wrong.

    If you go to the free throw line and get fouled it doesn't count as a field goal attempt at all (unless you convert the shot for an And 1)

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