Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ... 7 8 9 10 LastLast
Results 161 to 180 of 200

Thread: DeMar's 3 pt shot (and what it means for the Raptors)

  1. #161
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    349
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Kobe - career 0.336 from 3PT... less than .325 for the last three seasons.
    Wade - career 0.289 from 3PT... less than 0.270 for the last two seasons.

    It's amazing they can stay in the league.

  2. #162
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Oakville
    Posts
    3,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Jimmie said it best. We're not asking DeMar to become a 40%, human-torch 3pt shooter, he just has to become reliable. The opportunities that open up when you become a decent outside shooter are immense. Take it from personal experience.

    What we all want is for DeMar to become an elite SG while still on this team, correct? It's agreed on that the focal point of his game is being a slasher and getting into the lane. Become a respectable shooter can help him become a better slasher! When he has experienced trouble getting into the lane, it's because the defense realizes that that's his only option. That, and taking a mid-range jumper, which is playing exactly into most defenses' mindsets. Whether he knocks it down or not, most defenses are quite happy with letting players take the most inefficient shot in the game. Why do you think Amir is starting to take so many?

    Anyways, how does becoming a good shooter open up the lane? Hard closeouts! He sets for a shot, they come running, he blows by for a finish at the rim or a short floater.

    When he's outside, the defense tenses and anticipates a drive, which is why he gets stopped. But if he can become a dual threat (shoot/drive), then the defense will have to make a decision. As of right now, they don't have to. They just have to wait.
    Writer for RaptorsWatch.com

    Twitter - @thekid_it

  3. #163
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Oakville
    Posts
    3,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Bouncepass wrote: View Post
    Kobe - career 0.336 from 3PT... less than .325 for the last three seasons.
    Wade - career 0.289 from 3PT... less than 0.270 for the last two seasons.

    It's amazing they can stay in the league.
    Both Kobe and Wade knock down mid-range jumpers in their sleep, and it ain't even focal points in their game anymore. Over half of DeMar's shots come from mid-range, and he can't even knock down 50%. And that's just one aspect of the game they're much better at.
    Writer for RaptorsWatch.com

    Twitter - @thekid_it

  4. #164
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,022
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    Both Kobe and Wade knock down mid-range jumpers in their sleep, and it ain't even focal points in their game anymore. Over half of DeMar's shots come from mid-range, and he can't even knock down 50%. And that's just one aspect of the game they're much better at.
    Well, not going to get into "other aspects" (been done a lot already), but let's be fair on this one. It's not the case at all with Wade

    2012-2013
    Rim ............DeRozan .659 Wade .713
    3-10ft.........DeRozan .404 Wade .412
    10-16ft.......DeRozan .391 Wade .385
    16ft +.........DeRozan .414 Wade .398
    3 pt............DeRozan .283 Wade .257

    Not really much to choose between their percentages at all, but DD is actually a little better at everything outside 10 feet. The big difference between their scoring at this point is that Wade gets 51% of his baskets at the rim, vs DD getting 30% of his makes there. Wade has never been a good shooter from any distance. Good SGs come in different flavours.

    DeMar certainly is shooting too much from mid range, but to say "he can't even knock down 50%" of them essentially puts him the same boat as every SG in the history of the NBA.

  5. Like Xixak liked this post
  6. #165
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Oakville
    Posts
    3,470
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    DeMar certainly is shooting too much from mid range, but to say "he can't even knock down 50%" of them essentially puts him the same boat as every SG in the history of the NBA.
    Well that's exactly my point. With all that shooting from mid-range, he should be shooting better.
    Writer for RaptorsWatch.com

    Twitter - @thekid_it

  7. #166
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,526
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote TRX wrote: View Post
    Oh my.



    ... To be fair, you actually said "elite SGs" are average at shooting too ("mid to low 30%"), a level DeRozan doesn't even currently reach. Although, to be honest, it took a bit of extrapolation to interpret this coherently. (And I swear I'm not trying to be a dick.) Could you actually rephrase/clarify this?

    Because from what I'm reading, most of the elite SGs are average three point shooters and bad slashers. But then you turn around and say most elite SGs are all shooters? Either you're trying to say the quality of SG today is atrocious or I'm missing something.
    I said most SG's these days are shooters. Never said they are all great shooters
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  8. #167
    Raptors Republic Starter Sam17's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Brampton, ON
    Posts
    289
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    I don't get this either. And its the same people everytime, with a shitty argument. Not all SG's are 3 pt gunners that shoot 40% on three's, most of the "elite sg" (which there aren't very much of in today's nba) shoot around the mid to low 30% for their career, and also most of them are crappy at slashing to the bucket. Look at guys like K mart and Joe Johnson, i'd hardly call those guys good slashers. Most SG's that are considered "elite" are all shooters, and because of that everyone thinks you have to be able to shoot 3's to be elite which is not true at all. Sure DeMar isn't elite at what he does,yet, but his game is very rare and you don't see it much in the NBA. How many 2-guards in the league right now can do what DeMar does? besides D Wade
    Kobe, Harden, and Ellis come to mind, but anyway I do see what your point is.

  9. #168
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    889
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Reading comprehension is HARD, I know, and presenting ideas to support your opinion that aren't straight out your ass is also hard (Demar's game is "very rare and you don't see it much in the NBA"? most elite SGs can't slash and can only shoot 3s?).

    People (at least me) aren't suggesting shifting DD out for a 3-pt gunner. They're saying that, to be an elite, valuable starting SG in this league, you NEED to be AT LEAST RELIABLE from that range. Yes, he has a skillset that includes things other than 3-point shooting. That's nice. But to be elite, to be a starting SG on a deep-playoff team, you need more than just athleticism and a strong work ethic.

    It's not even about Demar, per se. It's about what the Raptors need out of their starting SG. And they need efficient, reliable 3-pt shooting at that spot, since that, along with SF, as that's who will be taking the majority of those shots. It's a simple equation: we need this skill, we don't have anyone who has it, so either someone here has to develop it or we have to find someone somewhere else that does and bring them in.

    Maybe DD will develop the skill, maybe he won't. But to pretend it's not an issue that he can't shoot the 3 from the SG spot is some silly sh*t.
    As an aside: the DD/Rudy problem (and one of the biggest offensive issues for the team) is that they duplicate each other's skillsets. DeMar is a good slasher and a mediocre shooter; so is Rudy. There's no reason, offensively speaking, that your SF has to be the slasher and your SG has to be the shooter. If we had another SF other than Rudy who was a good three-and-D player - or if we simply moved DeMar to SF and found a three-and-D SG (Gary Neal, for example), the issues with DeMar's game would be greatly lessened.

  10. #169
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    491
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    As an aside: the DD/Rudy problem (and one of the biggest offensive issues for the team) is that they duplicate each other's skillsets. DeMar is a good slasher and a mediocre shooter; so is Rudy. There's no reason, offensively speaking, that your SF has to be the slasher and your SG has to be the shooter. If we had another SF other than Rudy who was a good three-and-D player - or if we simply moved DeMar to SF and found a three-and-D SG (Gary Neal, for example), the issues with DeMar's game would be greatly lessened.
    Yeah, that would be my preferred course of action, as well. Despite folks thinking it's hating on Demar to talk about the fact that he needs to improve his shooting, I would actually prefer to keep him and get rid of Gay. Demar can play the 3 more easily than the 2 right now, with his (current) skillset, he costs little more than half what Gay does, and he's younger.

    It's pretty obvious that both of them can't be here long-term. It's simply down to choosing your poison: a SF who's probably at his ceiling and earns max money (a ceiling that doesn't justify the $$$) for the next 2 years, or a young SG with holes in his game who earns $10M for the next 4. You're deciding to pay $10M for upside vs. $17M for a finished product. Give the state of this team, I'd prefer to go with the smaller contract/bigger upside and move him later if the upside doesn't show itself.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  11. #170
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,048
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Yeah, that would be my preferred course of action, as well. Despite folks thinking it's hating on Demar to talk about the fact that he needs to improve his shooting, I would actually prefer to keep him and get rid of Gay. Demar can play the 3 more easily than the 2 right now, with his (current) skillset, he costs little more than half what Gay does, and he's younger.

    It's pretty obvious that both of them can't be here long-term. It's simply down to choosing your poison: a SF who's probably at his ceiling and earns max money (a ceiling that doesn't justify the $$$) for the next 2 years, or a young SG with holes in his game who earns $10M for the next 4. You're deciding to pay $10M for upside vs. $17M for a finished product. Give the state of this team, I'd prefer to go with the smaller contract/bigger upside and move him later if the upside doesn't show itself.
    I'd rather keep the guy who is the better talent with the bigger contract. It's easier to clear cap space than it is to find talent imo.

  12. #171
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    243
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I'd rather keep the guy who is the better talent with the bigger contract. It's easier to clear cap space than it is to find talent imo.
    Tell that to OKC. Correction: it's easier to clear cap space than it is to find talent... if you consistently hand out bad contracts and/or don't have a contender. It's hard to compete now when bad contracts hurt so much more than in the past.

    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    I said most SG's these days are shooters. Never said they are all great shooters
    ... Right, which I said... in my very first sentence. So you're saying "elite SGs" are crappy at slashing, but also only average shooters, as far as I can tell. To quote myself again, "either you're trying to say the quality of SG today is atrocious or I'm missing something."
    Last edited by TRX; Sat Jul 20th, 2013 at 10:59 AM.

  13. #172
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,048
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote TRX wrote: View Post
    Tell that to OKC. Correction: it's easier to clear cap space than it is to find talent... if you consistently hand out bad contracts and/or don't have a contender. It's hard to compete now when bad contracts hurt so much more than in the past.
    Let me rephrase that to "it's easier to clear cap space than it is to GET talent". I can't say how incredibly impressed I am with what Houston has done in putting Harden and Dwight together. Lakers were able to attract talent because of Kobe and their storied franchise, Miami had Wade and its south beach, but Houston had nothing other than a genius of a GM. Barring injury they should have a team that will compete for a championship for years to come. On top of that they won't have any problems attracting free agents to play with those two.

  14. #173
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    889
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I'd rather keep the guy who is the better talent with the bigger contract. It's easier to clear cap space than it is to find talent imo.
    But then we have to seriously ask which of the two is the most cost-effective talent.

    Rudy last year: 41.6 FG%, 32.3 3P%, 81.4 FT%, 6.2 rebounds per 36, 2.7 assists per 36, 1.5 steals per 36, 18.4 points per 36, 15.6 PER

    DeMar last year: 45.5 FG%, 28.3 3P%, 83.1 FT%, 3.8 rebounds per 36, 2.4 assists per 36, 0.9 steals per 36, 17.7 points per 36, 14.4 PER

    Rudy is a better rebounder (but he grabs 10% of all team rebounds versus DeMar's 6.5%) and a slightly better three-point shooter, but other than that, they're basically the same player. If you go back and look at Rudy's fourth season versus DeMar's fourth season for a better developmental comparison, it's even closer - the only difference is Rudy being a slightly better three-point shooter.

    Is that worth an extra ten million dollars a year, plus DeMar being guaranteed to us for another four years while Rudy can walk in two, plus the fact that DeMar is that rarest of animals: a player who very clearly wants to play for Toronto? I would argue that it is not.
    Last edited by magoon; Sat Jul 20th, 2013 at 11:12 AM.

  15. #174
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,048
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    But then we have to seriously ask which of the two is the most cost-effective talent.

    Rudy last year: 41.6 FG%, 32.3 3P%, 81.4 FT%, 6.2 rebounds per 36, 2.7 assists per 36, 1.5 steals per 36, 18.4 points per 36, 15.6 PER

    DeMar last year: 45.5 FG%, 28.3 3P%, 83.1 FT%, 3.8 rebounds per 36, 2.4 assists per 36, 0.9 steals per 36, 17.7 points per 36, 14.4 PER

    Rudy is a better rebounder (but he grabs 10% of all team rebounds versus DeMar's 6.5%) and a slightly better three-point shooter, but other than that, they're basically the same player. If you go back and look at Rudy's fourth season versus DeMar's fourth season for a better developmental comparison, it's even closer - the only difference is Rudy being a slightly better three-point shooter.

    Is that worth an extra ten million dollars a year, plus DeMar being guaranteed to us for another four years while Rudy can walk in two, plus the fact that DeMar is that rarest of animals: a player who very clearly wants to play for Toronto? I would argue that it is not.
    To tell you the truth I personally put the premium on Gay despite similar stats. He's shown that he can be a better defender and much more clutch towards the end of games than DD. We haven't had a closer since the days of VC. Also Gay can create his own shot which DeMar can't do. Like I said before its not the money IMO that is important, it's the talent.

  16. #175
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Kigali, Rwanda
    Posts
    1,576
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I don't know if it's always been there, and I just missed it, but it looks like basketball-reference.com now does projections for the upcoming season!!! Not sure how reliable their methodology is, so I don't take their projection as more valid than any else's here. But just in case you were interested here are their projected stats for Derozan next year.

    Per 36 Minutes Shooting
    Season Age Lg FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% WS/48
    2013-14 24 NBA 6.6 14.6 0.4 1.4 4.3 5.2 0.7 3.9 2.4 0.9 0.3 1.8 2.3 17.8 .450 .281 .828 .067

    They project he will take 1.4 3PA and make .4 of them, so his 3pt % is projected to be .286.

    If you want to compare his projected stats with his last year stats click the link

    Even if it's not accurate, I'm still super psyched about this feature!!! I'm going to start a new thread about it now!!!
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  17. #176
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    243
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    ... His projected stats look virtually the same as last year's. Tiny bump in FG% offset by slight decrease in FGA and that's basically it. o_O

    No, I don't think that was there before though. Unless we both missed it.

  18. #177
    Raptors Republic Starter Mr.Z's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    MTL
    Posts
    996
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    w
    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    As an aside: the DD/Rudy problem (and one of the biggest offensive issues for the team) is that they duplicate each other's skillsets. DeMar is a good slasher and a mediocre shooter; so is Rudy. There's no reason, offensively speaking, that your SF has to be the slasher and your SG has to be the shooter. If we had another SF other than Rudy who was a good three-and-D player - or if we simply moved DeMar to SF and found a three-and-D SG (Gary Neal, for example), the issues with DeMar's game would be greatly lessened.
    Let's not put Derozan at SF so he can get burned by all the best players in the league on defence.

  19. #178
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    6,140
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    9 pages

  20. #179
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    5,646
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Let me rephrase that to "it's easier to clear cap space than it is to GET talent". I can't say how incredibly impressed I am with what Houston has done in putting Harden and Dwight together. Lakers were able to attract talent because of Kobe and their storied franchise, Miami had Wade and its south beach, but Houston had nothing other than a genius of a GM. Barring injury they should have a team that will compete for a championship for years to come. On top of that they won't have any problems attracting free agents to play with those two.
    I dunno. I'm not that impressed with the Rockets. What Morey did to assemble talent was impressive, but Howard has proven himself to be more of a cancer, than a winner.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  21. #180
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Kigali, Rwanda
    Posts
    1,576
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I don't think that Demar is likely to make big improvements which I posted in previous pages; I do think his contract is okay and will provide more value year over year.

    Another point I want to throw out there to support my argument that he provides good value.

    HTML Code:
    He's never been injured *knocks on wood*
    
    Season	Age	G	GS	MP
    2009-10	20	77	65	1664
    2010-11	21	82	82	2851
    2011-12	22	63	63	2206
    2012-13	23	82	82	3013
    Career		304	292	9734
    Other than those 5 games as a rookie he's played and started every game for 3 consecutive seasons. That's pretty impressive. I think there needs to be more analysis on time lost due to injury. I assume that a player makes the same amount of $$$ regardless of whether they are injured or not. I wonder how much derozan made/game or per minute compared to other players. Theoretically, if Demar could have had a cheaper/minute played or per/game played rate than another SG who has a smaller salary but missed games due to injury. I also think that there needs to be more advanced stats as a factor of total salary. Anyway, I had been planning to start doing the background to do an article on Derozan trying to compare production & salary on a per game and/or per minute basis, but don't have the time.

    If you factor in the lost production of injuries, it makes demar more valuable, IMO, or at least SHOULD make him more valuable.

    Anyway more food for thought.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •