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Thread: DeMar's 3 pt shot (and what it means for the Raptors)

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Wow!!!!

    You are now the designated expert on all things DeRozan. It was an interesting peek into the archives. Thanks.
    Definitely NOT an expert on derozan (as evidenced by the fact that none of those quotes are from me). The only difference between me and you, is that I'm the idiot that wasted over an hour of my life (which I'll never get back!) combing through endless pages of demar vs. bargs to find the above quotes. It'll probably be awhile before I comb through them again any time soon. I can also say with 100% honesty that if I had to choose between going back through the everything bargnani thread and getting water-boarded, I would easily choose water boarding. And I don't joke about torture because my wife doesn't let me (human rights activist).

    Can we please destroy the everything bargnani thread if it hasn't already been done (I'm too afraid to check). It actually might be cathartic to print out every post from that thread and use it to start a bonfire.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    I don't feel very corrected. That's one quote you found in a forum thread from over a year ago. He has definitely talked about that being his main focus a lot more this off-season.

    The way he has talked about it he's putting a lot of pressure on himself. The kind of pressure where if he doesn't pull through he could lose his job.

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    ezz_bee, for some reason, the system didn't let be quote more than your first sentence of that massive post. That's quite the effort, and have no idea why you'd go to all that work to very little end, but it almost makes me shy to rebut in the least. Good work, but I did say "almost", hahaha.

    Anyway, what Mr Z said was "Show me an article from prior off seasons that says he is working mainly on his 3-point shot."

    Most of what you posted was RR fans yapping, with a couple of references to articles about DeMar recognizing the need to work on his 3 pt shooting, and stating that he is putting in time on it, but it's only ever referred to as one of the things he's working on, not "working mainly on his 3 pt shot", so Mr Z doesn't stand corrected at all, based on what you've presented. Let's face it, everyone should know that DD was very raw when drafted, and had totally relied upon his athleticism in HS and his one year in college.

    It was highly recognized that he had lots to work on, including his shooting, period, never mind simply his 3 pt shooting. The stats (I hate raw stats to "prove" anything, ugh) are always used to support "he is what he is", but I watch every game and what I see with my eyes is the lad is improving in every aspect of the game, year by year. His 3 pt shooting certainly wasn't his "main priority" last year, because what I saw was a kid that had muscled up and was far more aggressive and ready to take contact on drives to the hoop, better ball handling, better court awareness, etc. I know his stroke is much better now than it was his first couple of years. I get the impression he's putting in more time beyond the arc this summer, so we'll see.

    As far as my mini rant about the same people repeating the same arguments over and over, I wasn't even around here a few years when some of the quotes you mention were posted. I'm only referring to the past season and current off season, but regardless, I still don't understand why people would want to be spending time making the same arguments over and over, at every opportunity, in multiple threads (the question I responded to was asking "why do these threads keep popping up?"). It's what I call incessant, but hey, if people want to keep on about it over and over, I guess it fills a need, and who the fk am I to criticize it? I just hope for new discussion when I come here, not the same all the time.

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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    No you are thinking of Acy, or POWER 3!


    So I spent about an hour mining through the ole' everything derozan thread and thought I'd share some of the posts that revolve around his 3 point shooting.

    2010- Febuary 2012 (where I finally gave up)

    2010




    Mr.Z, I think you stand corrected.



    2011



    No Props didn't post the original audio or text where Casey say's he going to help him with his 3pt shooting, but if you believe him (which I am likely too) then you stand corrected again.

    Start of the 2011-2012 season



    2012



    they allude to him specifically working on his 3pt shot during the off season, ie he put in an extra session 5-6 days a week devoted to 3 pt and mid-range shooting equally. So we've got at least to articles in two different off seasons, both focused on how improving derozan's 3 pointer is a priority and it is/was something he is/was working on. Obviously it wasn't the ONLY thing he was working on. But he's been quoted by different media as saying it's a priority, and he's been working on it. Both articles quote the volume of shots he was taking daily, which is also a good indicator of the seriousness with which he took the effort.




    In short, to answer you question P00ka, I see there are two reasons why keep asking the same questions about Derozan's shot.

    1) Because as a fan base we ALWAYS have to have a player on the roster we are actively trying to drive out of town.

    or

    2) Because despite it being pointed out as early as JULY 17th, 2010 (That will be 3 full years ago this Wednesday!!!)that his lack of three point shooting is a problem, something that was recognized by the team and himself Derozan STILL hasn't demonstrated an ability to hit that shot, even though it is something HE HAS ADMITTEDLY worked on for at least TWO CONSECUTIVE offseasons.

    I'm not saying he CAN'T or WON'T develop that shot, but I would say, at this point one would realistically have to admit that it is less likely than more likely to happen. But there's always hope.

    You can put in category 3 by the way. Which I would define as "people who believe that past behaviour, although not 100% accurate, is the best predictor of future behaviour". In regards to the NBA the MORE minutes a players logs in game time, the better past behaviour is at predicting future behaviour. This seems to ESPECIALLY hold true once said player has logged more than 10,000 minutes in the nba.

    FYI, Derozan has logged more than 9500 minutes, so I would argue that this is almost certainly the last offseason he has left to show us he is capable of new or entirely upgraded skills.

    Again, not saying he won't or can't. But that the window is very small, and after the All-star break he is what he is.

    HOPEFULLY his hard work pays off and he is able show us some improvement from beyond the arc.

    TO summarize? Why are we still talking about demar's lack of 3 point shot? Because it's still a problem that is currently being addressed. And as I mention in EDIT 2, I bet there are a lot of newerish posters here who might find it surprising that he's been making "making 3 pointers" a priority for 3 years. (I didn't think it went back THAT FAR).

    EDIT: I really wish that when you quoted someone it gave you the date in which it was posted, I wanted to put the exact date of each quote I used but that was too much work. Mods, is this something that is possible? Also you can click the links to take you to the original quotes. I also should point out that I skimmed through the first 50 pages (often going every other page) so it's entirely possible that I missed a bunch of 3 pt related posts, or that there are entirely other threads about this topic that never got merged.

    EDIT 2: I know it's unrealistic, but I kind of wish, there was some way to block people from starting new threads until they had read a certain % of old posts... but maybe I'm just becoming an old curmudgeon.

    EDIT 3: I was active during that time period, but I didn't come across anything I posted on the topic as opposed to skipped over it because it might make me look bad, if anyone comes across anything I said about demar's 3 point shooting feel free to throw it up. I'm a big fan of accountability.

    Whoa. Holy great post, ezz_bee!s

    That took some time. Much appreciated.

    I've been critical of DeRozan the last year or so and it is nice to see there was a time when I had the same optimism of many who have called me out here lately. The difference is about 4000 NBA minutes ago though.
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    I don't feel very corrected.
    Really???

    WOW. I think I'm confused. Your current opinion is that Demar has yet to focus on improving his three point shooting during an off season? Did you follow the raps during off seasons before the start of the 2010 season and the 2011 season? Because I remember A LOT of chatter (granted not so much last off season) during those off seasons about him focusing on improving the three point shooting, outside of what is was able to find.

    I'm also not sure why you are saying ONE quote, when I've clearly provided two (from two different off seasons [granted 1 is from realgm which no longer is available] but the other is from the NY Times where Derozan was interviewed by John Schuman.

    Seriously, google "demar derozan three point shooting" and it's not hard to find half a dozen articles that talk about his 3 point shot as being a element he needs to improve. Like this one from the NATIONAL POST Oct 14th 2011

    It won't let me quote it, but derozan says his three point shooting is his most improved part of his game. That he's more comfortable with it, and that he's planning on shooting more.

    There's also this article link

    HoopsVibe’s Very Quick Call: DeMar DeRozan is about to become a pick your poison player.

    The Toronto Raptors swing recently told the National Post he spent his entire off-season stretching his range by developing a three-point shot.

    Of course, DeRozan can get to the basket at will. He has a lightning-quick first step and is electric when attacking.

    So defenders sloughed off DeRozan. They dared him to fire away from the outside, content to neutralize his tremendous athleticism and not become his next youtube victim.

    According to DeRozan, this will no longer work. The South California native is confident he’ll punish sagging defenders with his three-point shot.

    Improved range will help DeRozan take the next step and become an All-Star. After all, Derrick Rose spent the summer of 2010 improving his three-point shot and won MVP.

    Such an exponential jump in stature won’t be the case for DeRozan as his Raptors are a work in progress. A three point shot will make him a handful for defenders, though.
    From Doug Smith's Blog, Jan. 2012
    Link
    Tagline: Raptors shooting guard DeMar DeRozan has put in the time needed to improve his three-point percentage.
    A year ago, DeMar DeRozan would set himself to launch a three-pointer and the ball would be passed to him and the shot would fly and he’d have zero confidence it would go in.
    That lack of confidence was a big reason why the Raptors swingman only attempted 52 three-pointers in 82 regular-season games and a huge factor in him making only five of them.
    But an extended summer in the gym, and the discipline to stay there shooting until he’d made up to 500 in a session, have imbued DeRozan with a new-found sense of confidence.
    And a shocking new proficiency in three-point shooting.
    DeRozan, who needed to add range to his jump shot to make his forays to the basket easier, has five three-pointers already this season and had two in Toronto’s 90-85 win over the New York Knicks on Monday.
    “I didn’t change my form, it’s more my work ethic, just getting comfortable,” he said. “I think last year I just wasn’t comfortable with it, I was timid about shooting it. Now when I shoot it, I shoot it with confidence like I know it’s going in.”
    Stephen Brotherstone from Febuary 6th 2012
    Before the current NBA season even started, Toronto Raptors head coach Dwane Casey and team president/GM Bryan Colangelo identified Andrea Bargnani and DeMar DeRozan as the faces-of-the-franchise going forward. Any success this season would hinge on the rapid development of these two young players, though not a lot of success was anticipated.
    “The team will definitely go off how Andrea and I are playing,” DeRozan told HOOPSWORLD earlier this season. “We have to take that responsibility and take on that challenge every night.”
    That is a lot of pressure for a 22-year-old player who has yet to star in the league to put on himself, but early on the challenge was being met. Bargnani roared out of the gate to lead his team in scoring and take an unexpected role on defense while DeRozan featured a three-point shot minted over the extended off season that nicely expanded his game. Over the first six contests, DeRozan averaged 18.5 points on 47.6 percent shooting and nailed 10 of his 16 three-point attempts.

    Read more at http://www.hoopsworld.com/demar-dero...94wPisOZfjH.99
    Globe and Mail from Dec. 2011

    The coach said DeRozan has also shown an aptitude for three-point shooting during training camp (he was a dreary five of 52 from that range last season), and that’s another aspect of DeRozan’s game that could be unleashed once the season starts.

    “I don’t know if that’s his strength yet, but he’s really been working hard at them and knocking them down in practice,” Casey said. “Now I guess the test will be knocking them down when the popcorn’s popping.”

    “That’s one arsenal added to my game,” is how DeRozan put it.
    So yes, media, his coaches, and Demar himself, has said IN SEVERAL places that he's point significant work into his 3 point shot.

    Here's one from 2010 it's from Lakers Nation, but quotes the realgm article that's no longer up.

    Title of the Article: DeMar DeRozan Adding Three-Pointer To Arsenal
    Raptors swingman DeMar DeRozan had a pretty good rookie year, averaging 8.6 points and 2.9 rebounds while shooting 49.8% from the floor in 77 games.

    With Toronto headed for a rebuilding period without Chris Bosh -- despite what general manager Bryan Colangelo says -- DeRozan figures to be one of the team’s top options this coming season.

    If there was one glaring hole in DeRozan’s game last season, it was his three-point shooting. He attempted just 16 treys all season because of his limited range, hitting only four of them.

    This summer, he’s focused on turning that negative into a positive

    “Early in the morning I lift and then I go to the gym and make 300 threes,” DeRozan told RealGM
    in Las Vegas. “I also work on my mid-range jumper.”
    LINK
    um, so yes. Demar has been focusing on his 3 point shooting since the off season following his rookie year.

    So the idea, that we should cut him slack because he hasn't focused on improving his 3 point shot is totally bogus. Unless of course, he and Casey lied to the press about it.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Sat Jul 13th, 2013 at 05:54 PM.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    ezz_bee, for some reason, the system didn't let be quote more than your first sentence of that massive post. That's quite the effort, and have no idea why you'd go to all that work to very little end, but it almost makes me shy to rebut in the least. Good work, but I did say "almost", hahaha.

    Anyway, what Mr Z said was "Show me an article from prior off seasons that says he is working mainly on his 3-point shot."

    Most of what you posted was RR fans yapping, with a couple of references to articles about DeMar recognizing the need to work on his 3 pt shooting, and stating that he is putting in time on it, but it's only ever referred to as one of the things he's working on, not "working mainly on his 3 pt shot", so Mr Z doesn't stand corrected at all, based on what you've presented..
    1st bold, I think I've addressed the first bold with updated references from real people.

    2nd bold, I am happy to admit that I did not come across a direct quote where demar says "I am working mainly on my three point shot", but I think the amount of times he's brought up his 3 point shooting, including how many 3 pointers he's taken during every off-season, is a pretty clear indicator that it is certainly something he's been focusing on. If anyone can find ANY aspect of Demar's game that's has a greater amount of press, that would go alone to providing a counter argument. But just saying that he's working on other stuff too, downplays the amount of times Demar himself has talked about his working on his 3 pt shooting.

    But I guess that just one person's opinion.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    I also should point out that the massive digging through the archives wasn't specifically to try to prove a point against Mr. Z, I actually stated it before I saw his post and then just pointed out the parts that I felt disproved his point.

    The point of the giant thread was just to point out that Demar's 3pt shot (specifically his lack their of) has generated numerous threads over the years.

    But yes, I do stand by the evidence that Demar has CLEARLY and IRREFUTABLY made developing a 3 point shot a priority in every off season, and the fact that there is a LACK of any other skill being mentioned with the detail and frequancy, it is FAIR and ACCURATE to describe his work on his 3 point shot as his main focus (keeping in mind, that he obviously isn't going to just work on one aspect of his game exclusively to all other facets).

    EDIT: At the absolute minimum, you can't deny, that he's focused on his 3 point shooting at LEAST as much as any other facet.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Sat Jul 13th, 2013 at 06:17 PM.
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    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    You spent a lot of time on this background research and I have a lot of respect for you for doing so. I also don't like Digging @ DeRozan.

    It is my opinion though, that whomever you are trying to convince, is not worth the water in the sewer, the light that refracts from the moon, diamonds in elephant shit, and the time of day.

    You're better off spending your time teaching a monkey to steal panties.

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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    1st bold, I think I've addressed the first bold with updated references from real people.

    2nd bold, I am happy to admit that I did not come across a direct quote where demar says "I am working mainly on my three point shot", but I think the amount of times he's brought up his 3 point shooting, including how many 3 pointers he's taken during every off-season, is a pretty clear indicator that it is certainly something he's been focusing on. If anyone can find ANY aspect of Demar's game that's has a greater amount of press, that would go alone to providing a counter argument. But just saying that he's working on other stuff too, downplays the amount of times Demar himself has talked about his working on his 3 pt shooting.

    But I guess that just one person's opinion.
    You put in even more work that appeared on that first post. You've proven the point that he's said every year that he's working on it. He's also said he's working on it again this summer, so I'm more interested in how he does this coming season. We'll see.

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    Quote drunkmunky wrote: View Post
    You spent a lot of time on this background research and I have a lot of respect for you for doing so. I also don't like Digging @ DeRozan.

    It is my opinion though, that whomever you are trying to convince, is not worth the water in the sewer, the light that refracts from the moon, diamonds in elephant shit, and the time of day.

    You're better off spending your time teaching a monkey to steal panties.
    Where can I sign up?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote drunkmunky wrote: View Post
    You spent a lot of time on this background research and I have a lot of respect for you for doing so.
    You shouldn't. I certainly don't respect myself for it.

    I also don't like Digging @ DeRozan.
    I'm not sure what the meaning is here, but I'm not trying to come across as a derozan hater. In fact, if you factor in the time value of money, the fact that his salary stays flat, and the cap will increase, I think his contract extension is going to look pretty good in 2014-2015 and 2015-2016 that I predict he will opt out of his 2016-2017 player option. Basically we over pay for only 1 year.

    You're better off spending your time teaching a monkey to steal panties.
    Can't I do both?
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    You put in even more work that appeared on that first post. You've proven the point that he's said every year that he's working on it. He's also said he's working on it again this summer, so I'm more interested in how he does this coming season. We'll see.
    Yeah, for sure. Hopefully, the cumulative effort will start to pay off.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Ok, it's after midnight here, and I have to get up in less than 6 hours... s m h. wtf am i doing with my life!?!?!? (rhetorical question)

    lates
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Where can I sign up?
    u get the monkey, i'll get the panties. we'll work something out.

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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    Ok, it's after midnight here, and I have to get up in less than 6 hours... s m h. wtf am i doing with my life!?!?!? (rhetorical question)

    lates
    Just know your efforts are much appreciated!

    It certainly puts things in perspective for me and erases any doubts I had that I might be too harsh in my opinion.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    I aint shook lol

    The way he started posting up last year it seemed clear that's what he worked on the most.
    I get the feeling he did work on his 3point shot but not as much as other aspects he knows he can excel at. Only bringing up the reference to working on his 3's in order to keep people happy who were criticizing.

    There was only one real quote you gave me, the rest was all RR people talking.

    Either way, I truly believe he will be better next season from 3pt range. Call me an asshole when he isn't.

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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    I aint shook lol

    The way he started posting up last year it seemed clear that's what he worked on the most.
    I get the feeling he did work on his 3point shot but not as much as other aspects he knows he can excel at. Only bringing up the reference to working on his 3's in order to keep people happy who were criticizing.

    There was only one real quote you gave me, the rest was all RR people talking.

    Either way, I truly believe he will be better next season from 3pt range. Call me an asshole when he isn't.

    There are four quotes from DD in this post from 2010, 2011, and 2012 and none of them are RR posters:
    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post221236


    Some of the quotes in there are utterly head scratching when you consider what has happened since they were made. This one stands out in particular:

    “Whenever I am open, I intend to take (the three-pointer), but now I am trying to be more aggressive and not settle for as many jump shots,” said DeRozan. “I am trying to be more aggressive and get to the foul line.”
    He took 1231 shots of which 830 were jumpers and 449 were the worst shot in the game (16-24ft).

    His 449 16-24ft attempts was 2nd in the entire league and he was 2nd in makes at 186. However that was 139th in percentage at 41.4%.
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    Quote drunkmunky wrote: View Post
    ...you're better off spending your time teaching a monkey to steal panties.
    And wouldn't the results of that be something to see.

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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    I truly believe he will be better next season from 3pt range. Call me an asshole when he isn't.

    Fair enough. From my perspective, I think there's about a 5% chance he shots OVER 35.0% (Huge improvement) from three on the season, a 15% chance that he gets to 33.0-34.9% (significant improvement) and about a 25% he shots 30%-32.9% (modest improvement) for the whole season. So that leaves 55% chance he doesn't improve at all.

    I would LOVE to see him improve his 3pt shot. Especially from the corners.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    And wouldn't the results of that be something to see.
    Depends if she's shaved. and doesn't have VD. But you're picking the victim so pick wisely.

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