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Should Tyler Hansbrough start?

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  • #46
    isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    Also a great point. Foul trouble dictates games more often then not.
    But it also shouldn't be understated that getting guys in foul trouble is valuable on the bench too.

    Example: Playing a team like Chicago, they have Gibson on the bench as their 3rd big. I would much rather have Tyler there, limiting a quality 3rd bigs effectiveness by getting him in foul trouble, and thus forcing the coach into the unenviable task of deciding whether to risk Noah or Gibson getting into worse foul trouble early.

    JV is going to be a better post player than anyone on the team. We don't need another guy going to work down there in the starting lineup. He draws fouls well. Also DeMar gets to the line well, and Rudy and Lowry should get opportunities to attack as well. I'd much rather have Hansbrough come on for Amir, maybe get a few minutes next to JV to possibly get all 3 of their main bigs in foul trouble in the 1st quarter, while guys like Ross, Fields/Novak come on at the wing. Guys who attack less well. We will need that aggressive play on the bench, badly...It could help spark a guy like Ross too

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    • #47
      white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      But it also shouldn't be understated that getting guys in foul trouble is valuable on the bench too.

      Example: Playing a team like Chicago, they have Gibson on the bench as their 3rd big. I would much rather have Tyler there, limiting a quality 3rd bigs effectiveness by getting him in foul trouble, and thus forcing the coach into the unenviable task of deciding whether to risk Noah or Gibson getting into worse foul trouble early.
      It can go either way. I agree with your point, but wouldn't you rather have the starter in trouble than a guy off the bench? The starter is the better player, that's why he's starting!
      Twitter - @thekid_it

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      • #48
        isaacthompson wrote: View Post
        It can go either way. I agree with your point, but wouldn't you rather have the starter in trouble than a guy off the bench? The starter is the better player, that's why he's starting!
        My point is I'd rather have both. The kind of fouls Tyler is going to pick up against the opposition with the starters are basically just loose ball fouls. He will also force those for the 2nd unit.

        On the starter's unit, he gets no opportunity to attack. They're not going to post up Hansbrough with JV, Rudy, DeMar, and Lowry on the floor. And those guys will put plenty of pressure on the opposition's D, and force plenty of fouls. In addition, Amir can force the loose ball fouls that Tyler would in the same situation. But on the bench, he'll get more opportunities, and by staggering his minutes with JV, it always gives you a guy down low who can force fouls.

        Offensively I don't think he adds as much to the starters as he does to the bench. Defensively, there's definitely an argument to be made to start him and let Amir come in off the bench to better adjust defensively....

        But for the bold, my argument is, well, if you'd rather have foul trouble against the starting opposition, wouldn't you also want your best defensive lineup? And wouldn't you want the latter more?

        Hansbrough's worse on D, and his shortcomings there are less exposed against the worse opposition he'll generally face on the bench. Again, I think it's just as, if not more likely, he'll help force foul trouble to their whole big rotation (instead of just the opposing starters) coming off the bench, and it lets the team start as strong defensively as possible. I mean, I'd rather start with my best D every game, than start with a worse D and hope that they'll make it up by forcing an extra foul or two, which is also left in part up to the randomness of the officials (in a very poorly officiated league).

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        • #49
          to my knowledge Hansbrough has either the same or slightly better D Rating than Amir
          For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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          • #50
            thead wrote: View Post
            to my knowledge Hansbrough has either the same or slightly better D Rating than Amir
            Amir's DRTG is under the team's though, while Tyler's is over. I don't think it's that hard to see that Amir is a better, more versatile defender. And he's definitely a better help defender. Tyler bangs and plays tough, but he doesn't have as much ability to help impact the game there.

            Amir has better DRBG, better STL%, better BLK% and better DWS....DRTG is so heavily skewed by team performance...

            *I pulled my stats from bball reference....for anyone who doesn't know the site.
            http://www.basketball-reference.com/
            Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Jul 16, 2013, 01:32 PM.

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            • #51
              I'll agree Amir is a better help defender. I don't have the expertise to say that translates into the overall scheme. I certainly don't think Hansbrough is a poor defender overall. Defense is so hard to quantify, as we don't know what Hansbrough's role in the Indiana D was or if he would be asked to different things here If those things he is asked to do here are more or less suited to him. Amir will have a chemistry advantage, that's for sure.
              For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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              • #52
                thead wrote: View Post
                I'll agree Amir is a better help defender. I don't have the expertise to say that translates into the overall scheme. I certainly don't think Hansbrough is a poor defender overall. Defense is so hard to quantify, as we don't know what Hansbrough's role in the Indiana D was or if he would be asked to different things here If those things he is asked to do here are more or less suited to him. Amir will have a chemistry advantage, that's for sure.
                I don't think Hansbrough is a poor defender, but he'll look like an even better defender against worse players, whereas Amir will be more effective than him against better players. I think it maximizes everyone's usefulness that way.

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                • #53
                  thead wrote: View Post
                  1.) His per 36 last season

                  15 points would expect as much as 18 here as he had no role in the Indiana attack

                  10 rebounds (would likely stay the same)

                  8 FTAs a game would put the opposing team in a lot of foul trouble considering Jonas is quite good as drawing fouls as well.

                  2.) Amir would still play starters minutes of between 28 - 35 a game between PF and C, and he plays just as well off the bench as he does as a starter.

                  3.) Better to let him put the hurt on the other teams starters instead of their bench.

                  4.) I don't think he can play the 5 effectively which means if he is the backup 4 his minutes would likely shrink to 15 - 20.

                  5.) If he gets in foul trouble you can always go to Amir. If Amir gets into foul trouble starting, Jonas has to play extended minutes or the raptors have to go small.

                  I'm not married to this theory yet I am just wondering if anyone else sees value in going this direction?
                  I saw this thread title and laughed. I very rarely change my opinion based on what's posted but I did just now after going through all your posts on this thread. I wouldn't mind either way but Psycho-T may be the better option as a starter.

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                  • #54
                    tucas wrote: View Post
                    I saw this thread title and laughed. I very rarely change my opinion based on what's posted but I did just now after going through all your posts on this thread. I wouldn't mind either way but Psycho-T may be the better option as a starter.
                    No offence to Tyler who is a prickly player with a great motor and a passable all-around rounded game well suited to being a very reliable rotation big.........

                    ...But Amir is a major part of almost every one of our best 5 man units statistically and any time you have a lineup that ranks 5th in the NBA in point differential you should be making it a priority to keep it together.

                    Until the above statement is disproved, the Lowry/Derozan/Gay/Johnson/Valanciunas lineup should be the default choice to start the season...

                    Source:
                    When Tom Chambers dunks an NBA player gets their hops...

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                    • #55
                      thead wrote: View Post
                      1.) His per 36 last season

                      15 points would expect as much as 18 here as he had no role in the Indiana attack

                      10 rebounds (would likely stay the same)

                      8 FTAs a game would put the opposing team in a lot of foul trouble considering Jonas is quite good as drawing fouls as well.

                      2.) Amir would still play starters minutes of between 28 - 35 a game between PF and C, and he plays just as well off the bench as he does as a starter.

                      3.) Better to let him put the hurt on the other teams starters instead of their bench.

                      4.) I don't think he can play the 5 effectively which means if he is the backup 4 his minutes would likely shrink to 15 - 20.

                      5.) If he gets in foul trouble you can always go to Amir. If Amir gets into foul trouble starting, Jonas has to play extended minutes or the raptors have to go small.

                      I'm not married to this theory yet I am just wondering if anyone else sees value in going this direction?
                      I think you have to let Amir and Tyler compete for it. I'm not sure how important starting is to Amir but if it is deep down and he always plays hard and he's typically very efficient and productive, you gotta give him a shot at it winning the gig. All that you mentioned is important but the human element is more important than all those. 99.9% of the time the better player starts and if that's Amir and with his positive attitude then you gotta go with him. Any discontent caused by doing otherwise will kill the quantitative benefits you mentioned.

                      Or to summarize, to do everything well and with great effort needs to be rewarded and if it's not it will send a bad message to everyone, not just Amir.

                      A consultation would be that if he's outplaying Tyler and as reward he gets to close games; most starters are on the floor at the end of the game.

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                      • #56
                        he is crazy and the raps need that.
                        i can't wait for him to bully bargnani when the raps play em.

                        ceez wrote: View Post
                        Bingo

                        Hansbrough is the type of guy where you basically throw ANALYTICS out the window because there's no way to measure (yet!) being a pest and getting under players' skin.
                        Protocall
                        https://www.youtube.com/user/PTC204
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                        The best day of 2013 was the day I found out Andrea Bargnani got traded.

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                        • #57
                          A fight to the death!
                          Air Amir Johnson! VERSUS Psycho T! BEGIN!!!

                          Amir Johnson Wins!

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                          • #58
                            So I'm listening to Bob McGowan (ugh) who's talking to Casey and it sounds like Casey has a huge throbbing boner for Hansbrough, going so far as to say it'll be open comp for the starting job.

                            Sigh.
                            @sweatpantsjer

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                            • #59
                              ceez wrote: View Post
                              So I'm listening to Bob McGowan (ugh) who's talking to Casey and it sounds like Casey has a huge throbbing boner for Hansbrough, going so far as to say it'll be open comp for the starting job.

                              Sigh.
                              I listened to that as well. I think you have a huge throbbing boner for Amir and that's why you're all groany over this...
                              If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                              Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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                              • #60
                                Debate dead!

                                @raptorshq: Isiah presses Casey to name his favourite player on the #Raptors. Casey chooses Amir Johnson...to no surprise.
                                @Chr1st1anL

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