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Thread: Should Tyler Hansbrough start?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I'm feeling the opposite might happen. He may help set a tough reputation for the Raptors, and even set a benchmark for teammates not getting so many ticky-tacky calls against.
    I hope so.

    Raptors led league in fouls last year with 83 more than 2nd place GSW.

    They also had a differential of 286.

    Part of the blame goes to coaching strategy, poor individual defense, and a lack of execution on defensive rotations but there is a huge discrepancy relative the rest of the league.
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  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Amir Johnson is the better all around defender. JV needs a good defender next to him. He just does get it yet. His going to need help.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Amir Johnson is the better all around defender. JV needs a good defender next to him. He just does get it yet. His going to need help.
    More importantly, that defender next to him has to have good help D qualities....That is Amir more than it is Tyler.

    And I really think Tyler is a better fit offensively on the 2nd unit. He needs a couple of touches in the post. I'm not saying he has a great post game, but unlike Amir, he does a good job attacking the basket with the ball in his hands. That's one reason he gets good FT numbers. The other reason for the latter is that he is relentless attacking the offensive glass. Again, he's the ideal player for when things get sloppy, which I expect more with the bench unit. He'll get us free throws and putbacks.

  4. #44
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote caccia wrote: View Post
    Yes! I am a UNC grad and fan of UNC men's basketball and women's soccer. (The Lady Tar Heels are once again defending NCAA champs). If Tyler starts, you will be amazed at how many ways--big and little--he influences the game. He will be a positive force on the court because he never gives up. There is a reason he is still the ACC all-time scoring leader and won a national championship. Tyler is one reason among many that the Pacers went to the Eastern Conference Finals last season.

    Based on past numbers, Hansbrough could average 16 points and 8 rebounds as a starter. Last season with the Pacers, he had to improve his rebounding, which he did. Now he has to improve his jump shot, which he mentioned in an interview. At UNC, he shot from close to the chest, but now shoots from over his head on the jumper, so it still needs more work, and more importantly, the confidence to shoot it. Also, he can run the fast break. For the last two years I watched him run down the floor on the break, only to fail to have the ball passed to him by the Pacers' point guards. I bet Kyle Lowry will learn to do that in the first month.

    Because he is so aggressive under the basket, expect him to get blocked about once per game. Also, he is a streak shooter, so the more touches he gets, the more efficient he becomes. It's really important for the guards to get him the ball in rhythm.
    Thanks for the insight Caccia! Appreciate the insider information. Great first post.
    Welcome to the Board!

    This is a great point about TH being the ACC all-time leading scorer. He certainly knows how to put the ball in the hoop; he's just learned that in order to be truely effective in this league, teams aren't going to look to him to score as a 1st or 2nd option like his was at UNC.
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  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote d749 wrote: View Post
    interesting question
    with tyler starting we give up defence, but increase the chances of early foul trouble on the other team which could give us a lot of momentum
    amir is productive either way but I think it matters how much val has improved on d/ tylers ability to hit the jumper to space the floor
    Also a great point. Foul trouble dictates games more often then not.
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  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    Also a great point. Foul trouble dictates games more often then not.
    But it also shouldn't be understated that getting guys in foul trouble is valuable on the bench too.

    Example: Playing a team like Chicago, they have Gibson on the bench as their 3rd big. I would much rather have Tyler there, limiting a quality 3rd bigs effectiveness by getting him in foul trouble, and thus forcing the coach into the unenviable task of deciding whether to risk Noah or Gibson getting into worse foul trouble early.

    JV is going to be a better post player than anyone on the team. We don't need another guy going to work down there in the starting lineup. He draws fouls well. Also DeMar gets to the line well, and Rudy and Lowry should get opportunities to attack as well. I'd much rather have Hansbrough come on for Amir, maybe get a few minutes next to JV to possibly get all 3 of their main bigs in foul trouble in the 1st quarter, while guys like Ross, Fields/Novak come on at the wing. Guys who attack less well. We will need that aggressive play on the bench, badly...It could help spark a guy like Ross too

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    But it also shouldn't be understated that getting guys in foul trouble is valuable on the bench too.

    Example: Playing a team like Chicago, they have Gibson on the bench as their 3rd big. I would much rather have Tyler there, limiting a quality 3rd bigs effectiveness by getting him in foul trouble, and thus forcing the coach into the unenviable task of deciding whether to risk Noah or Gibson getting into worse foul trouble early.
    It can go either way. I agree with your point, but wouldn't you rather have the starter in trouble than a guy off the bench? The starter is the better player, that's why he's starting!
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  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    It can go either way. I agree with your point, but wouldn't you rather have the starter in trouble than a guy off the bench? The starter is the better player, that's why he's starting!
    My point is I'd rather have both. The kind of fouls Tyler is going to pick up against the opposition with the starters are basically just loose ball fouls. He will also force those for the 2nd unit.

    On the starter's unit, he gets no opportunity to attack. They're not going to post up Hansbrough with JV, Rudy, DeMar, and Lowry on the floor. And those guys will put plenty of pressure on the opposition's D, and force plenty of fouls. In addition, Amir can force the loose ball fouls that Tyler would in the same situation. But on the bench, he'll get more opportunities, and by staggering his minutes with JV, it always gives you a guy down low who can force fouls.

    Offensively I don't think he adds as much to the starters as he does to the bench. Defensively, there's definitely an argument to be made to start him and let Amir come in off the bench to better adjust defensively....

    But for the bold, my argument is, well, if you'd rather have foul trouble against the starting opposition, wouldn't you also want your best defensive lineup? And wouldn't you want the latter more?

    Hansbrough's worse on D, and his shortcomings there are less exposed against the worse opposition he'll generally face on the bench. Again, I think it's just as, if not more likely, he'll help force foul trouble to their whole big rotation (instead of just the opposing starters) coming off the bench, and it lets the team start as strong defensively as possible. I mean, I'd rather start with my best D every game, than start with a worse D and hope that they'll make it up by forcing an extra foul or two, which is also left in part up to the randomness of the officials (in a very poorly officiated league).

  9. #49
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    to my knowledge Hansbrough has either the same or slightly better D Rating than Amir

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    to my knowledge Hansbrough has either the same or slightly better D Rating than Amir
    Amir's DRTG is under the team's though, while Tyler's is over. I don't think it's that hard to see that Amir is a better, more versatile defender. And he's definitely a better help defender. Tyler bangs and plays tough, but he doesn't have as much ability to help impact the game there.

    Amir has better DRBG, better STL%, better BLK% and better DWS....DRTG is so heavily skewed by team performance...

    *I pulled my stats from bball reference....for anyone who doesn't know the site.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Jul 16th, 2013 at 01:32 PM.

  11. #51
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    I'll agree Amir is a better help defender. I don't have the expertise to say that translates into the overall scheme. I certainly don't think Hansbrough is a poor defender overall. Defense is so hard to quantify, as we don't know what Hansbrough's role in the Indiana D was or if he would be asked to different things here If those things he is asked to do here are more or less suited to him. Amir will have a chemistry advantage, that's for sure.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I'll agree Amir is a better help defender. I don't have the expertise to say that translates into the overall scheme. I certainly don't think Hansbrough is a poor defender overall. Defense is so hard to quantify, as we don't know what Hansbrough's role in the Indiana D was or if he would be asked to different things here If those things he is asked to do here are more or less suited to him. Amir will have a chemistry advantage, that's for sure.
    I don't think Hansbrough is a poor defender, but he'll look like an even better defender against worse players, whereas Amir will be more effective than him against better players. I think it maximizes everyone's usefulness that way.

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic All-Star tucas's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    1.) His per 36 last season

    15 points would expect as much as 18 here as he had no role in the Indiana attack

    10 rebounds (would likely stay the same)

    8 FTAs a game would put the opposing team in a lot of foul trouble considering Jonas is quite good as drawing fouls as well.

    2.) Amir would still play starters minutes of between 28 - 35 a game between PF and C, and he plays just as well off the bench as he does as a starter.

    3.) Better to let him put the hurt on the other teams starters instead of their bench.

    4.) I don't think he can play the 5 effectively which means if he is the backup 4 his minutes would likely shrink to 15 - 20.

    5.) If he gets in foul trouble you can always go to Amir. If Amir gets into foul trouble starting, Jonas has to play extended minutes or the raptors have to go small.

    I'm not married to this theory yet I am just wondering if anyone else sees value in going this direction?
    I saw this thread title and laughed. I very rarely change my opinion based on what's posted but I did just now after going through all your posts on this thread. I wouldn't mind either way but Psycho-T may be the better option as a starter.

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  15. #54
    Raptors Republic Starter Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote tucas wrote: View Post
    I saw this thread title and laughed. I very rarely change my opinion based on what's posted but I did just now after going through all your posts on this thread. I wouldn't mind either way but Psycho-T may be the better option as a starter.
    No offence to Tyler who is a prickly player with a great motor and a passable all-around rounded game well suited to being a very reliable rotation big.........

    ...But Amir is a major part of almost every one of our best 5 man units statistically and any time you have a lineup that ranks 5th in the NBA in point differential you should be making it a priority to keep it together.

    Until the above statement is disproved, the Lowry/Derozan/Gay/Johnson/Valanciunas lineup should be the default choice to start the season...

    Source:
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  17. #55
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    1.) His per 36 last season

    15 points would expect as much as 18 here as he had no role in the Indiana attack

    10 rebounds (would likely stay the same)

    8 FTAs a game would put the opposing team in a lot of foul trouble considering Jonas is quite good as drawing fouls as well.

    2.) Amir would still play starters minutes of between 28 - 35 a game between PF and C, and he plays just as well off the bench as he does as a starter.

    3.) Better to let him put the hurt on the other teams starters instead of their bench.

    4.) I don't think he can play the 5 effectively which means if he is the backup 4 his minutes would likely shrink to 15 - 20.

    5.) If he gets in foul trouble you can always go to Amir. If Amir gets into foul trouble starting, Jonas has to play extended minutes or the raptors have to go small.

    I'm not married to this theory yet I am just wondering if anyone else sees value in going this direction?
    I think you have to let Amir and Tyler compete for it. I'm not sure how important starting is to Amir but if it is deep down and he always plays hard and he's typically very efficient and productive, you gotta give him a shot at it winning the gig. All that you mentioned is important but the human element is more important than all those. 99.9% of the time the better player starts and if that's Amir and with his positive attitude then you gotta go with him. Any discontent caused by doing otherwise will kill the quantitative benefits you mentioned.

    Or to summarize, to do everything well and with great effort needs to be rewarded and if it's not it will send a bad message to everyone, not just Amir.

    A consultation would be that if he's outplaying Tyler and as reward he gets to close games; most starters are on the floor at the end of the game.

  18. #56
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    he is crazy and the raps need that.
    i can't wait for him to bully bargnani when the raps play em.

    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Bingo

    Hansbrough is the type of guy where you basically throw ANALYTICS out the window because there's no way to measure (yet!) being a pest and getting under players' skin.
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  19. #57
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    A fight to the death!
    Air Amir Johnson! VERSUS Psycho T! BEGIN!!!

    Amir Johnson Wins!


  20. #58
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    So I'm listening to Bob McGowan (ugh) who's talking to Casey and it sounds like Casey has a huge throbbing boner for Hansbrough, going so far as to say it'll be open comp for the starting job.

    Sigh.

  21. #59
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    So I'm listening to Bob McGowan (ugh) who's talking to Casey and it sounds like Casey has a huge throbbing boner for Hansbrough, going so far as to say it'll be open comp for the starting job.

    Sigh.
    I listened to that as well. I think you have a huge throbbing boner for Amir and that's why you're all groany over this...
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  22. #60
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Debate dead!

    @raptorshq: Isiah presses Casey to name his favourite player on the #Raptors. Casey chooses Amir Johnson...to no surprise.

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