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Thread: Tim Leiweke: "we may ultimately have to, excuse my English, suck to be good"

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Rookie vino's Avatar
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    ownership is ready to suck for a while, fans are not. too bad... those who are not will suffer. I want to see this team in the finals in 5 years, do you?!

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    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote unknown guest wrote: View Post
    Give it another decade, when home grown talent starts becoming the norm in the NBA, and more non-Canadians start dominating the NHL game.
    I sure hope you're right. If that ever happens I may actually start watching TSN!

    (I do for Raps games, but otherwise, their hockey panel is a complete joke.)
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  3. #63
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    *Temporary Hijack*
    While I can appreciate the sentiment of that song being Basketball Related (..or is it?) ... that is absolutely HORRIBLE! LOL
    Is that what the kids are listening to these days?! My god .. I'm not even 30 and I feel old just listening to that. Hahah

    He's not even rapping about anything. The only words he bothers to rhyme together are "n*gga" with "n*gga". Lol

    *Ahem* Sorry ... Rant over ... Lol

    ...I do like the part about "Going hard in the paint" though ... that's catchy.
    Last edited by Joey; Tue Jul 16th, 2013 at 04:25 PM.
    In Masai we Trust.

  4. #64
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    While I can appreciate the sentiment of that song being Basketball Related (..or is it?) ... that is absolutely HORRIBLE! LOL
    Is that what the kids are listening to these days?! My god .. I'm not even 30 and I feel old just listening to that. Hahah

    He's not even rapping about anything. The only words he bothers to rhyme together are "n*gga" with "n*gga". Lol

    *Ahem* Sorry ... Rant over ... Lol

    ...I do like the part about "Going hard in the paint" though ... that's catchy.
    I like rap but damn, that song is horrible.

    There's tons of kids my age that like that stuff, but you ain't ever gonna catch me listening to stuff like that.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

  5. #65
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    no one cares about making the 8th seed and having a first round exit.

    you mean 4-19. and it was more like missing the playoffs by 10 games, since the end of the season was obviously against teams who DID make the playoffs and didn't give a shit about winning.

    either way, by your logic are you saying that milwaukee and philadelphia were in a great place last year then? philly was ahead of us despite not making the playoffs and milwaukee actually made it to the playoffs! oh boy look how well that turned out for both teams!
    You don't just go from out of the playoffs to a top 3 seed. Unless you make some drastic changes and get lucky like these "big three" teams..

    It's a slow build. Making the playoffs is a step in the right direction even as the 8th seed. Plus, your logic is stupid because it doesn't matter what seed you are, you are always susceptible to a first round exit.
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  6. #66
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    I like rap but damn, that song is horrible.

    There's tons of kids my age that like that stuff, but you ain't ever gonna catch me listening to stuff like that.
    The song is awful. But, really the people that listen to that aren't listening for lyrical purposes. Just something with a good beat and loud bass
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  7. #67
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    You don't just go from out of the playoffs to a top 3 seed. Unless you make some drastic changes and get lucky like these "big three" teams..

    It's a slow build. Making the playoffs is a step in the right direction even as the 8th seed. Plus, your logic is stupid because it doesn't matter what seed you are, you are always susceptible to a first round exit.
    i'm starting to think you have no idea how the playoffs work.

  8. #68
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    The song is awful. But, really the people that listen to that aren't listening for lyrical purposes. Just something with a good beat and loud bass
    Thats a beat?! Lol Its potentially the worst beat I've ever heard.
    In Masai we Trust.

  9. #69
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    i'm starting to think you have no idea how the playoffs work.
    Please enlighten me, oh mighty iblastoff..
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  10. #70
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Thats a beat?! Lol Its potentially the worst beat I've ever heard.
    I have no intention of listening to that song. But, I'm just going with trends I notice
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  11. #71
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    You don't just go from out of the playoffs to a top 3 seed. Unless you make some drastic changes and get lucky like these "big three" teams..

    It's a slow build. Making the playoffs is a step in the right direction even as the 8th seed. Plus, your logic is stupid because it doesn't matter what seed you are, you are always susceptible to a first round exit.
    making the playoffs itself doesn't really mean anything. even ujiri said ANYONE can build a playoff team. what matters is progression. the hawks have been consistent in making the playoffs for the past several years and they're considered stuck in no mans land. you call that success or a 'step in the right direction'? the bucks made 8th seed last year. if they were in the 'right direction' why did they blow the whole team up?

    as for first round exit? you do realize 8th seed has to play the 1st seed right? in all of NBA history (basically early 80s when this playoff format was instilled) its been VERY rare for the 8th seed to ever knock out the 1st seed, hence basically guaranteed exit. no shit that "you are always susceptible to a first round exit" but the chances of that for an 8th seed time are exponentially higher.

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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    making the playoffs itself doesn't really mean anything. even ujiri said ANYONE can build a playoff team. what matters is progression. the hawks have been consistent in making the playoffs for the past several years and they're considered stuck in no mans land. you call that success or a 'step in the right direction'? the bucks made 8th seed last year. if they were in the 'right direction' why did they blow the whole team up?

    as for first round exit? you do realize 8th seed has to play the 1st seed right? in all of NBA history (basically early 80s when this playoff format was instilled) its been VERY rare for the 8th seed to ever knock out the 1st seed, hence basically guaranteed exit. no shit that "you are always susceptible to a first round exit" but the chances of that for an 8th seed time are exponentially higher.
    While what you say is true, I think you're missing the point. 2 seasons ago, Philly and Indiana were basically at the same level. Both looked like promising, up and coming teams, challenging higher seeds and making them work to progress to the next round. Philly has since begun a rebuilding project, while Indiana is in the thick of things. Rewinding to two years ago, could you have predicted this?

    The point is you never really know whether or not you will progress. The best you can do is build a playoff team, and then add the parts necessary to get you into contention. The Sixers tried to do this with the Bynum trade and failed, But Indiana managed to get it right.

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  14. #73
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    making the playoffs itself doesn't really mean anything. even ujiri said ANYONE can build a playoff team. what matters is progression. the hawks have been consistent in making the playoffs for the past several years and they're considered stuck in no mans land. you call that success or a 'step in the right direction'? the bucks made 8th seed last year. if they were in the 'right direction' why did they blow the whole team up?

    as for first round exit? you do realize 8th seed has to play the 1st seed right? in all of NBA history (basically early 80s when this playoff format was instilled) its been VERY rare for the 8th seed to ever knock out the 1st seed, hence basically guaranteed exit. no shit that "you are always susceptible to a first round exit" but the chances of that for an 8th seed time are exponentially higher.
    I think the point you’re missing is that for a team like the Raptors, who haven’t made the playoffs in several seasons, making the playoffs would be significant progression. Nobody is suggesting simply making the playoffs is the end goal, but rather an initial goal, to be used as a stepping stone for greater, sustainable success.

    Making the playoffs as the 8th seed doesn’t automatically mean that the team is unable to become anything better. Only poorly managed teams become the dreaded “treadmill” team that is too bad to improve and too good to rebuild. I hate when people equate a non-playoff team finally making the playoffs to perennial “treadmill” teams like Atlanta and Milwaukee, simply because they’ve fought and improved to make the playoffs in the first place. I don’t think TL or MU are the type of guys to rest of their laurels of simply making the playoffs... they’d only use that as motivation to continue to improve.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Jul 16th, 2013 at 05:41 PM.

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  16. #74
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    While what you say is true, I think you're missing the point. 2 seasons ago, Philly and Indiana were basically at the same level. Both looked like promising, up and coming teams, challenging higher seeds and making them work to progress to the next round. Philly has since begun a rebuilding project, while Indiana is in the thick of things. Rewinding to two years ago, could you have predicted this?

    The point is you never really know whether or not you will progress. The best you can do is build a playoff team, and then add the parts necessary to get you into contention. The Sixers tried to do this with the Bynum trade and failed, But Indiana managed to get it right.
    and then the pacers DRAFTED paul george.

    as for the raptors, not even at this point is anyone saying they look promising or upcoming at all.
    Last edited by iblastoff; Tue Jul 16th, 2013 at 05:44 PM.

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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    and then the pacers DRAFTED paul george.
    What? Paul George was drafted BEFORE their playoff run. In 2010. Just before Ed Davis. Which resulted in me crying myself to sleep that night (imagine a DeRozan-George combo... *sigh*).

  18. #76
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    While what you say is true, I think you're missing the point. 2 seasons ago, Philly and Indiana were basically at the same level. Both looked like promising, up and coming teams, challenging higher seeds and making them work to progress to the next round. Philly has since begun a rebuilding project, while Indiana is in the thick of things. Rewinding to two years ago, could you have predicted this?

    The point is you never really know whether or not you will progress. The best you can do is build a playoff team, and then add the parts necessary to get you into contention. The Sixers tried to do this with the Bynum trade and failed, But Indiana managed to get it right.
    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I think the point you’re missing is that for a team like the Raptors, who haven’t made the playoffs in several seasons, making the playoffs would be significant progression. Nobody is suggesting simply making the playoffs is the end goal, but rather an initial goal, to be used as a stepping stone for greater, sustainable success.
    I've said this before but......

    is the playoff appearance a stepping stone or a ceiling?


    Stepping stone good.

    Ceiling bad.


    How do you figure this out? My 'formula':

    What talent do your key pieces possess?
    How old are your key pieces?
    How much future cap space/flexibility does your team have?
    Are you getting contributors from mid-first round draft picks (or even better all stars!)?
    Are your main guys the real deal or are you hoping they become more after 3-4+ years in the league?
    Do you have depth at all positions i.e. a strong bench?
    Do you have value contracts or cap killing contracts?
    Is your ownership willing to pay luxury to keep a team together or will non-basketball decisions remove key players?


    Looking at all of that, I tend to think the Raptors fall in the dreaded "ceiling" category for a first round appearance as the team is currently constructed.
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #77
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I think the point you’re missing is that for a team like the Raptors, who haven’t made the playoffs in several seasons, making the playoffs would be significant progression. Nobody is suggesting simply making the playoffs is the end goal, but rather an initial goal, to be used as a stepping stone for greater, sustainable success.

    Making the playoffs as the 8th seed doesn’t automatically mean that the team is unable to become anything better. Only poorly managed teams become the dreaded “treadmill” team that is too bad to improve and too good to rebuild. I hate when people equate a non-playoff team finally making the playoffs to perennial “treadmill” teams like Atlanta and Milwaukee, simply because they’ve fought and improved to make the playoffs in the first place. I don’t think TL or MU are the type of guys to rest of their laurels of simply making the playoffs... they’d only use that as motivation to continue to improve.
    I agree with this entirely
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  20. #78
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    My 'formula':

    1)What talent do your key pieces possess?
    2)How old are your key pieces?
    3)How much future cap space/flexibility does your team have?
    4)Are you getting contributors from mid-first round draft picks (or even better all stars!)?
    5)Are your main guys the real deal or are you hoping they become more after 3-4+ years in the league?
    6)Do you have depth at all positions i.e. a strong bench?
    7)Do you have value contracts or cap killing contracts?
    8)Is your ownership willing to pay luxury to keep a team together or will non-basketball decisions remove key players?
    76ers in 2011:

    1) Pretty high (Holiday, Iggy, Thaddeus Young)
    2) Some are quite young, others are veterans but not old yet (Iggy)
    3) Decent
    4) We will have the 16th pick in the 2011 draft
    5) We are hoping Jrue Holiday and Evan Turner improve
    6) Yes, we have a strong bench
    7) Elton Brand, Francisco Elson, and Andres Nocioni will be gone soon, and Iggy is really the only big contract
    8) Depends on how close we are to a championship.

    Pacers in 2011:

    1) Pretty high (George, Granger, Hibbert, Hansbrough)
    2) Mostly young, with the exception of Granger
    3) A decent amount, but we're about to throw a shit ton of money at Roy Hibbert next year
    4) We're about to trade Kawhi Leanord for George Hill
    5) We're hoping George and Hibbert develop
    6) We'd like to think so
    7) Only Granger's
    8) Depends on how close we are to a championship

    I know I'm writing with a bias, but it's hard with 20/20 hindsight. Still, the two situations look eerily similar given your formula. Are the Pacers succeeding because George/Hibbert's development out-paced Holiday/Turner? Or was it because Granger was injured and didn't shoot them out of games? Or was it that George Hill brought the Spurs mentality with him?

    Honestly I have no idea. But I don't think there is a way to assess if we're at a ceiling or progressing towards the future. The Raptors have young pieces in Val and Jonas, Lowry has room to improve, as does Fields and to some extent DeRozan. I'd say we have some potential.

  21. #79
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I've said this before but......

    is the playoff appearance a stepping stone or a ceiling?


    Stepping stone good.

    Ceiling bad.


    How do you figure this out? My 'formula':

    What talent do your key pieces possess?
    How old are your key pieces?
    How much future cap space/flexibility does your team have?
    Are you getting contributors from mid-first round draft picks (or even better all stars!)?
    Are your main guys the real deal or are you hoping they become more after 3-4+ years in the league?
    Do you have depth at all positions i.e. a strong bench?
    Do you have value contracts or cap killing contracts?
    Is your ownership willing to pay luxury to keep a team together or will non-basketball decisions remove key players?


    Looking at all of that, I tend to think the Raptors fall in the dreaded "ceiling" category for a first round appearance as the team is currently constructed.
    I agree with the bolded, but I think that just highlights the importance of the team's GM in avoiding the “treadmill” pitfall.

    Assuming the Raptors only other roster moves this offseason is to amnesty Kleiza and add an inconsequential 2nd/3rd string PG, and the team winds up sneaking into the playoffs as the #8 seed (16th best team in the league), I see plenty of opportunity for MU to further improve the team heading into the 2014-15 season.

    CAP SPACE
    - Camby ($4.4M)
    - Richardson ($1.4M)
    - Gray ($2.7M)
    - possibly more (Hansborough, Acy, Buycks, etc..)
    - likely at least 3 roster spots and a total of at least $8.5M expiring contract after this season

    2014 DRAFT
    - #15 draft pick in a loaded draft
    - better 2nd round pick of their own and SAC’s
    - NYK’s 2nd round draft pick

    TRADE ASSETS
    - Gay’s $19.5M expiring contract (or he could be re-signed to a cheaper long-term extension)
    - Fields’ $6.25M expiring contract
    - Johnson’s $7.1M expiring contract
    - Hansborough’s $2.6M expiring contract (if team option is picked up)
    - all future 1st round picks
    - NYK’s 2016 1st round pick
    - all future 2nd round picks (plus an extra 2nd round pick in 2017)

    MU has many options for improving the roster after making the playoffs next season, even if the current team as is has 1st round ceiling. I still think making the playoffs would be a step in the right direction and certainly shouldn’t be viewed as a strategy that somehow limits the long-term potential success of the franchise.

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  23. #80
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I agree with the bolded, but I think that just highlights the importance of the team's GM in avoiding the “treadmill” pitfall.

    Assuming the Raptors only other roster moves this offseason is to amnesty Kleiza and add an inconsequential 2nd/3rd string PG, and the team winds up sneaking into the playoffs as the #8 seed (16th best team in the league), I see plenty of opportunity for MU to further improve the team heading into the 2014-15 season.

    CAP SPACE
    - Camby ($4.4M)
    - Richardson ($1.4M)
    - Gray ($2.7M)
    - possibly more (Hansborough, Acy, Buycks, etc..)
    - likely at least 3 roster spots and a total of at least $8.5M expiring contract after this season


    2014 DRAFT
    - #15 draft pick in a loaded draft
    - better 2nd round pick of their own and SAC’s
    - NYK’s 2nd round draft pick

    TRADE ASSETS
    - Gay’s $19.5M expiring contract (or he could be re-signed to a cheaper long-term extension)
    - Fields’ $6.25M expiring contract
    - Johnson’s $7.1M expiring contract
    - Hansborough’s $2.6M expiring contract (if team option is picked up)
    - all future 1st round picks
    - NYK’s 2016 1st round pick
    - all future 2nd round picks (plus an extra 2nd round pick in 2017)

    MU has many options for improving the roster after making the playoffs next season, even if the current team as is has 1st round ceiling. I still think making the playoffs would be a step in the right direction and certainly shouldn’t be viewed as a strategy that somehow limits the long-term potential success of the franchise.
    That is not cap space.

    Raptors are at salary cap (maybe $3M in cap space i.e. less than non-tax/FULL MLE) assuming Gay picks up his option - and they don't have a starting PG.
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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