Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 126

Thread: Raptors - a playoff team in 2013-14?

  1. #101
    Raptors Republic All-Star RandomGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Lietuva
    Posts
    1,300
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    who's first....
    #FREE

  2. #102
    Raptors Republic All-Star iblastoff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,317
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Season is a write-off. Even if the team makes the playoffs, it's not building towards anything. If there ceiling is 7th/ 8th it's gonna be blown up
    flip flop!

  3. #103
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Hamilton,ON a.k.a. The Hammer!
    Posts
    5,257
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    flip flop!
    I said "if"..
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  4. #104
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,007
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    All you're doing is handwaving away with "intelligent management" to avoid answering the actual serious questions with respect to Raptors salary issues, which are as follows:

    1. Rudy costs $15 million this year and $19 million next year, and will most likely want at least $12-14 million going forward. He'll be able to get that somewhere. Do we re-sign him for that much?
    2. Kyle will want as max a deal as possible, presumably in the neighborhood of $9-10M or even more. Do we re-sign him for that much?
    3. Amir will need a new contract in 2014/15, will be in his prime and probably will want (and deserve!) at least $7-8 million if not more. Do we re-sign him for that much?

    Let's say in 2015-16 we have Rudy for $12m, Kyle for 9 and Amir for 8. Which I think is pretty optimistic, frankly, but let's say that's what we've got. That's 38 million once you add DeMar, 43 once you add in Jonas. Jonas will want his extension and he'll most likely deserve max, so we'll agree to give him $12-14m a year and hey presto, we're already capped out just by our starters for the next year. And then we're right back where we started.

    You can talk about "intelligent management" all you want, but there is a very simple question at the heart of all this: do you want to move forward with Rudy/Kyle/DeMar/Amir/Jonas as your core? Most of the people who are saying "come on, let's give them a chance" are basically saying yes to that. That's fine. But the price of having them as your core is that, well, they are mostly expensive, and they're not going to get cheaper in the near future.

    If you accept that at least some of Rudy, Kyle and DeMar need to go at some point, then the next question is "when" and from a risk-modelling standpoint the answer is "the sooner the better," because they're all basically known quantities and the odds (for Rudy and DeMar more than Kyle) are that their trade values are more likely to drop than raise. Trade Rudy now, and maybe you get reasonable value for him, because there's still upside attached to him. The other GMs all know about the vision issue and that he got eye surgery to correct it, and they're all wondering what we're wondering: was Rudy's shooting mediocre because of his vision, or because he's just a mediocre shooter? If it gets confirmed as the latter, then he'll get harder to trade. Right now Rudy has potential, and the one thing about the NBA that always turns out true is that GMs and fans alike are willing to overpay for potential. It just makes more sense to trade him now. (See also: DeMar.)
    I'm not sure how Rudy has potential. I hope your not basing that simply on the eye surgery. If GM's are more likely to want Rudy simply because he got eye surgery, then those are poor GM's indeed...perhaps the Knicks will take him.

    I believe this team is in a pretty good position going forward. There is flexibility here and I believe this team can improve without tanking, and I think this is the approach MU will take, unless the team starts this upcoming season the way it did the last. I think in a well coached system that the players believe in we can definitely make the playoffs, maybe even the second round. However, I do not see most of the players on this roster as being a part of the future. I think a core of JV/Amir/Gay/DD and Kyle is pretty good, and can be competitive, but I certainly do not see it as a team capable of a championship. The main reason I think this is Rudy. He has a larger role than he can fill, he supposedly needs to be a super-star, even though he lacks the super-star attitude or mentality. I think Rudy gets traded, and that may happen this year if the team under-achieves, but he could still be kept for another year and his expiring contract could be moved easily. I think Lowry gets traded as well. If he has a great season, we may want to keep him, but I think he goes either way, probably as a S&T next offseason to a team hard up for an aggressive PG. I just don't see him leading any team to a championship. I think DD stays, at least for the time being. His contract isn't as bad as some think, in my opinion anyways, and he shows a great work ethic, a commitment to the team, and has shown improvement in many aspects of his game year to year since coming into the league, not to mention the durability. He has not regressed at all, and shows a desire to continue to improve. I can't say the same for RG or KL, so I think DeMar stays longer than the other two mentioned. Plus, in a year or two I think many will look at Demar's value like we now look at Amir's.

    In any event, like you (magoon) mentioned, we can't afford to keep the current starters together as their contracts expire, and why would you unless you think the team can compete for a championship? At this point, I think we all agree that JV should stay. Everyone else is up in the air really. I'd move Gay in a heartbeat...I just don't believe in him. I know he has a ton of talent, but thats where it stops for me. Plus, we can probably get a good return if we move him. As for Kyle, well I'm kinda up in the air with him. I think he could be a great player, and I'm excited to see what he will do this season after trimming up and now playing for a contract, but, I fear what we get from him this year we may not get after, if he gets a nice extension he gives me the impression he may "take it easy" afterward, or "regress" if you will. I hope I am wrong about him as I would like to see him succeed in a Raps uniform. But, depending on how this season goes, we may very well be able to get a good return on Lowry as well, or keep him if he shows he can be a leader.

    I like Amir, I think he brings alot to the table and is versatile and capable of making a positive contribution whether he plays 15 or 35, starts or comes off the bench. He is one of the better "intangible" guys out there, and I say keep him. However, he could also net a good return. I think DD is a keeper too. I could care less about his 3pt shot, I figure he should shoot few of them anyways and only under extenuating circumstances, that is, the Raps should not run plays that leaves DD "open" for 3pt shots. Furthermore, our offensive system shouldn't allow DD (or RG for that matter) to just park and hoist up deep jumpers, or play in face up ISO. I like DD in the post and taking it too the hole and getting to the line. He is one of the better guards in the league at this, I think we should take advantage of it. We should be running plays to get him in position to score where he is most capable of doing so, not encouraging him to work on skills he may never gain and take shots he is the least likely of making. I think alot of teams recognize this, making DD a tradeable piece that good also net a good return.

    So, I think there are options going forward, however, if we start moving some of these players we will have to take advantage of the cap space and make a splash in the free agent market at some point. Sorry, I see no Wiggins in the near future. If we rely soley on draft picks, we could easily get burnt and be going through this same process again in 6-8 years. Tanking and dealing for picks just isn't gonna work in my opinion, plus I'm not sure how many high picks guys like RG, DD, KL, and AJ could bring. Smart trades, a few good picks, and a great free agent signing or two in the next few years could elevate this team significantly.
    As for the core, I'm happy to see what they bring this season. If we are not in a playoff position after 25-30 games, I'd start making plans to change the roster.

    Personally, this is as excited I have been in some time about the Raps, believing we have the potential to make the playoffs this season and perhaps make a splash, while still having some flexibility going forward that does not necessarily mean tanking and watching this team completely suck like it has for so many years.

  5. #105
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Hamilton,ON a.k.a. The Hammer!
    Posts
    5,257
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    The real question is does this team compliment one another? That's what everyone is going to find out. That's why Ujiri has not blown it up. Need to know what we've got and if they mesh.
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  6. Like Puffer liked this post
  7. #106
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    MTL
    Posts
    1,068
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Are we really sure NY is a lock? Right now they have 11 guys on their roster, only one true C in Chandler who has no offensive game. Their line-up will look something like:

    Felton/ Prigioni
    Shumpert/ Smith/ Hardaway
    Anthony/ World Peace
    Stoudemire/ Bargnani
    Chandler/ Barron

    A lot of the guys on their team have a hard time staying healthy, they are over the cap on four players alone. To me it seems they could have a really shaky season.

  8. #107
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    890
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    Are we really sure NY is a lock?
    Yes. They had injury problems last season too and still reeled off 50 wins, and the new pieces they've added that aren't Bargs look to be replacement value or even potentially upgrades (Metta, Hardaway Jr.).

    Are they going to be as good as they were last year? Probably not. But they're still going to make playoffs.

  9. #108
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Hamilton,ON a.k.a. The Hammer!
    Posts
    5,257
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    Are we really sure NY is a lock? Right now they have 11 guys on their roster, only one true C in Chandler who has no offensive game. Their line-up will look something like:

    Felton/ Prigioni
    Shumpert/ Smith/ Hardaway
    Anthony/ World Peace
    Stoudemire/ Bargnani
    Chandler/ Barron

    A lot of the guys on their team have a hard time staying healthy, they are over the cap on four players alone. To me it seems they could have a really shaky season.
    Tell me the other teams who could be better than them
    or have more talent? Besides, the other "locks"
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  10. #109
    Raptors Republic Starter Fully's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    Are we really sure NY is a lock? Right now they have 11 guys on their roster, only one true C in Chandler who has no offensive game. Their line-up will look something like:

    Felton/ Prigioni
    Shumpert/ Smith/ Hardaway
    Anthony/ World Peace
    Stoudemire/ Bargnani
    Chandler/ Barron

    A lot of the guys on their team have a hard time staying healthy, they are over the cap on four players alone. To me it seems they could have a really shaky season.
    A similar looking Knicks team won 54 games last year. I think they're paper contenders in the East in the truest sense of the word but I'd say there's a ~95% chance they make the playoffs next year.

  11. #110
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    2,040
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    Are we really sure NY is a lock? Right now they have 11 guys on their roster, only one true C in Chandler who has no offensive game. Their line-up will look something like:

    Felton/ Prigioni
    Shumpert/ Smith/ Hardaway
    Anthony/ World Peace
    Stoudemire/ Bargnani
    Chandler/ Barron

    A lot of the guys on their team have a hard time staying healthy, they are over the cap on four players alone. To me it seems they could have a really shaky season.
    I think the KNicks will regress. They had a lot go right last year. Still, it's a big regression from 54 wins to not in the playoffs. Unless Melo is hurt for an extended period, I can't see them losing 40+ games.

  12. #111
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    338
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    If you accept that at least some of Rudy, Kyle and DeMar need to go at some point, then the next question is "when" and from a risk-modelling standpoint the answer is "the sooner the better," because they're all basically known quantities and the odds (for Rudy and DeMar more than Kyle) are that their trade values are more likely to drop than raise.
    I think that's a good point, but "trade value" in the NBA isn't a static thing; the best trades tend to be opportunistic ones. So yes, perhaps Rudy Gay has more "trade value" right now in the Bill Simmons sense than he will at the trade deadline, or even next offseason if he opts in. But you also have to take into account the opportunity cost of potentially missing out on some GM desperate to fill a hole in a playoff-bound roster that just lost a player to injury. Or a team that didn't gel well, and needs a missing piece. The Wolves have a weird situation right now; maybe if things don't go the way management hopes they'll look to re-tool. Maybe some unknown unknown, as Rumsfeld would say, will pop up.

    Trading for 'best available value' can miss out on great unexpected or time-limited options. All indicators say that Masai's a patient man; I think he'll wait unless he can get really good value. I also don't think he'll hesitate to pull the trigger if the right offer comes along.

  13. #112
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,535
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    The Raptors have to win games to make the playoffs. We all know that right?
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  14. #113
    Raptors Republic All-Star Puffer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,349
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    ...If you accept that at least some of Rudy, Kyle and DeMar need to go at some point, then the next question is "when" and from a risk-modelling standpoint the answer is "the sooner the better," because they're all basically known quantities and the odds (for Rudy and DeMar more than Kyle) are that their trade values are more likely to drop than raise. ... It just makes more sense to trade him now. (See also: DeMar.)
    I never argued that he shouldn't be traded. You suggested that the roster, "as built" couldn't add top tier free agents. My argument is that the roster "as built" won't stay as built for the next three years. I would suggest that the roster can remain much as it is for most of this season, and then begin a process of change that sees a significantly different roster for the 2014-2015 season. I trust that Masai knows what he is doing.

    The team can compete, provide fun games to watch and still build towards a championship contender over the next 4-5 years with "intelligent management." I am not guaranteeing that will happen, but it can. You obviously can't say it that it won't. Having a strong opinion about what may or may not, about what is likely or is not does not count as having "the facts" on your side.

    Set up you Google Calendar or Outloook appointment scheduler to revisit this on Jan 1 2016, and we will see who has bragging rights.

  15. #114
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Hamilton,ON a.k.a. The Hammer!
    Posts
    5,257
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    The Raptors have to win games to make the playoffs. We all know that right?
    With the amount of supposed tanking going on this year. They won't have to win all that many
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  16. #115
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    890
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I never argued that he shouldn't be traded. You suggested that the roster, "as built" couldn't add top tier free agents. My argument is that the roster "as built" won't stay as built for the next three years.
    Well, yes, that's certainly possible. You can just go look at Hoopshype's salary projector and see when all the contracts expire. But if this roster isn't what you want going forward, and it has a low ceiling (and even the most ridiculously optimistic projections over on the projections thread top out at the 6th seed), then there really isn't any reason to keep it.

  17. #116
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,022
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.....................

  18. #117
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Hamilton,ON a.k.a. The Hammer!
    Posts
    5,257
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    The wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.....................
    Round and round
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  19. #118
    Raptors Republic All-Star lilmamba_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Etobicoke<3
    Posts
    2,391
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Round and round
    all through downtown
    What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
    The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
    No Where Near the South Side #WeTheNorth

  20. #119
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Hamilton,ON a.k.a. The Hammer!
    Posts
    5,257
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote lilmamba_ wrote: View Post
    all through downtown
    Isn't it "all through the town"?
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  21. #120
    Raptors Republic All-Star lilmamba_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Etobicoke<3
    Posts
    2,391
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Isn't it "all through the town"?
    oh it is, but downtown is better
    What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
    The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
    No Where Near the South Side #WeTheNorth

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •