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Thread: Top 10 at Each Position?

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    Default Are the Raptors Top 10 at Each Position?

    Don't we technically have a top ten player at each position (except PF) moving forwards with this team?

    Assuming Lowry can stay healthy, get more involved as a scorer like he was in Houston and get back to the 15-7-5 on 55% TS (which is basically what he put up in 2011-2012 and he was splitting minutes with Dragic), isn't a he a top 10 point guard? He's also among the best defensive PGs in the league.

    The only PGs you can say are out right better than him overall are (no particular order):

    Deron Williams
    Rajon Rondo
    Derrick Rose
    Kyrie Irving
    John Wall
    Russell Westbrook
    Tony Parker
    Chris Paul
    Steph Curry

    And I guess you could argue Jrue Holiday is better, although I'd disagree with that, he basically made the all-star team by default and his TS% is below 50, his PER is pretty low for a top PG at 16 and he turns the ball over at a high rate.


    DeMar is quite obviously a top 10 SG, the only debate would be where he ranks from 4-10 after Kobe, Wade and Harden.

    Rudy Gay is the 5th best SF in the league after LBJ, Melo, KD and Paul George.

    Jonas Valanciunas has the potential to be one of the best centers in the league.



    I'm not sure if this is even relevant really, but I feel like adding another top 10 player at the PF position (which is possible in 2015 when we have about 20M cap space, assuming Lowry/Gay are extended for a combined 25M per year) would make this team a pretty strong contender.
    Last edited by Xixak; Tue Jul 30th, 2013 at 11:31 AM.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Don't we technically have a top ten player at each position (except PF) moving forwards with this team?

    Assuming Lowry can stay healthy, get more involved as a scorer like he was in Houston and get back to the 15-7-5 on 55% TS (which is basically what he put up in 2011-2012 and he was splitting minutes with Dragic), isn't a he a top 10 point guard? He's also among the best defensive PGs in the league.

    The only PGs you can say are out right better than him overall are (no particular order):

    Deron Williams
    Rajon Rondo
    Derrick Rose
    Kyrie Irving
    John Wall
    Russell Westbrook
    Tony Parker
    Chris Paul
    Steph Curry

    And I guess you could argue Jrue Holiday is better, although I'd disagree with that, he basically made the all-star team by default and his TS% is below 50, his PER is pretty low for a top PG at 16 and he turns the ball over at a high rate.


    DeMar is quite obviously a top 10 SG, the only debate would be where he ranks from 4-10 after Kobe, Wade and Harden.

    Rudy Gay is the 5th best SF in the league after LBJ, Melo, KD and Paul George.

    Jonas Valanciunas has the potential to be one of the best centers in the league.



    I'm not sure if this is even relevant really, but I feel like adding another top 10 player at the PF position (which is possible in 2015 when we have about 20M cap space, assuming Lowry/Gay are extended for a combined 25M per year) would make this team a pretty strong contender.
    I'd add Rubio and Conley to the list of "definitely better", and Dragic and Bledsoe to the list of "arguably better" at PG.

    Batum, Kirilenko, Kawhi Leonard, Paul Pierce and Deng are better than Rudy, and if we're going to talk about JV's potential, it's only fair to mention Barnes and Jimmy Butler on the SF list as well. Iggy's a better SF than Gay as well, though he's also a better SG than DeMar.

    Other shooting guards I'd definitely rather have than DeMar: Kevin Martin, O.J. Mayo, Wes Matthews, JJ Redick, Joe Johnson (if we're disregarding contracts), J.R. Smith, Afflalo. Counting Iggy, that puts him at 12th, but depending on how much you value defense, shooting, and/or hustle: Sefalosha, Dudley, Danny Green, and Tony Allen could all make a strong case for being above DeMar.

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    I'd add Rubio and Conley to the list of "definitely better", and Dragic and Bledsoe to the list of "arguably better" at PG.

    Batum, Kirilenko, Kawhi Leonard, Paul Pierce and Deng are better than Rudy, and if we're going to talk about JV's potential, it's only fair to mention Barnes and Jimmy Butler on the SF list as well. Iggy's a better SF than Gay as well, though he's also a better SG than DeMar.

    Other shooting guards I'd definitely rather have than DeMar: Kevin Martin, O.J. Mayo, Wes Matthews, JJ Redick, Joe Johnson (if we're disregarding contracts), J.R. Smith, Afflalo. Counting Iggy, that puts him at 12th, but depending on how much you value defense, shooting, and/or hustle: Sefalosha, Dudley, Danny Green, and Tony Allen could all make a strong case for being above DeMar.
    Why join this forum all your going to do is hate on this team.

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    I'd add Rubio and Conley to the list of "definitely better", and Dragic and Bledsoe to the list of "arguably better" at PG.

    Batum, Kirilenko, Kawhi Leonard, Paul Pierce and Deng are better than Rudy, and if we're going to talk about JV's potential, it's only fair to mention Barnes and Jimmy Butler on the SF list as well. Iggy's a better SF than Gay as well, though he's also a better SG than DeMar.

    Other shooting guards I'd definitely rather have than DeMar: Kevin Martin, O.J. Mayo, Wes Matthews, JJ Redick, Joe Johnson (if we're disregarding contracts), J.R. Smith, Afflalo. Counting Iggy, that puts him at 12th, but depending on how much you value defense, shooting, and/or hustle: Sefalosha, Dudley, Danny Green, and Tony Allen could all make a strong case for being above DeMar.
    Wow. You think Redick, J.R. Smith, Kevin Martin, Mayo, Wes Matthews and Joe Johnson (at this point in his career) are all better than DeMar? I'd rather have DeRozan than any of those six guys

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    Quote Sam17 wrote: View Post
    Wow. You think Redick, J.R. Smith, Kevin Martin, Mayo, Wes Matthews and Joe Johnson (at this point in his career) are all better than DeMar? I'd rather have DeRozan than any of those six guys
    I'd take Reddick over DeMar, and maybe Mayo.

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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    I'd take Reddick over DeMar, and maybe Mayo.


    maybe you dont like demar or what ever the issue you have with him, reddick is no way better than demar and as for oj mayo, hes oj mayo
    What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
    The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
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    As it stands I only see one guy who is top 10 at their position in the league and thats Gay.

    If we expand that to who will likely be top 10 at their position Jonas gets added.

    Lowry isn't a top 10, but in part due to the depth at PG in the NBA right now.

    Demar is not a top 10 SG - and the sad part is how shallow the SG position has become in the NBA today. Players I'd take over him in order to build with or 'win now' with (in no order and assuming health):

    Klay Thompson, Evans, Affalo, Beal, Sefolosha, Danny Green, Waiters, Wade, JJ, Kobe, Dudley, Reddick, Matthews, JR Smith and Mayo (although I'd regret doing it with both of them), Hayward, Gordon

    A couple that are just off the list because they are situational but still better than Demar - Allen (Ray and Tony), Crawford

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    As it stands I only see one guy who is top 10 at their position in the league and thats Gay.

    If we expand that to who will likely be top 10 at their position Jonas gets added.

    Lowry isn't a top 10, but in part due to the depth at PG in the NBA right now.

    Demar is not a top 10 SG - and the sad part is how shallow the SG position has become in the NBA today. Players I'd take over him in order to build with or 'win now' with (in no order and assuming health):

    Klay Thompson, Evans, Affalo, Beal, Sefolosha, Danny Green, Waiters, Wade, JJ, Kobe, Dudley, Reddick, Matthews, JR Smith and Mayo (although I'd regret doing it with both of them), Hayward, Gordon

    A couple that are just off the list because they are situational but still better than Demar - Allen (Ray and Tony), Crawford
    Yeah, good point: I totally forgot Gordon, Beal, Thompson, and Hayward. Also, Ginobili--even broken down as he is, he's better than DeMar. (I do think DeMar's better than Waiters, though.)

    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Why join this forum all your going to do is hate on this team.
    I'm not a hater (in fact, I happen to think Amir's a top ten power forward when you consider both ends of the floor), but I am a realist. DeMar's a low efficiency volume shooter who doesn't pass the ball well and has a below-average handle and plays--at best--average defense. #NBARank, which is a good barometer of general public perception, didn't even have him in the top 100 players in the league.That's not a description you can possibly apply to a "top ten" player. Lowry's good, but the point guard position is historically deep in the NBA right now, so it's damn hard to be top ten. And Rudy is coming off his worst season ever, and was barely considered to be a top 5 SF even before this year. JV's got the potential, but we've gotta wait and see if he realizes it.

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    Yeah, good point: I totally forgot Gordon, Beal, Thompson, and Hayward. Also, Ginobili--even broken down as he is, he's better than DeMar. (I do think DeMar's better than Waiters, though.)



    I'm not a hater (in fact, I happen to think Amir's a top ten power forward when you consider both ends of the floor), but I am a realist. DeMar's a low efficiency volume shooter who doesn't pass the ball well and has a below-average handle and plays--at best--average defense. #NBARank, which is a good barometer of general public perception, didn't even have him in the top 100 players in the league.That's not a description you can possibly apply to a "top ten" player. Lowry's good, but the point guard position is historically deep in the NBA right now, so it's damn hard to be top ten. And Rudy is coming off his worst season ever, and was barely considered to be a top 5 SF even before this year. JV's got the potential, but we've gotta wait and see if he realizes it.
    All those SG you said you would pick over him shot lower percentage that DD from the field. DD was top5 in scoring at his position.

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    All those SG you said you would pick over him shot lower percentage that DD from the field. DD was top5 in scoring at his position.
    I don't know what all SG's scoring efficiencies are, but I did a points per possession based on usage and Demar came out just above average. I'm willing to bet there are more than 5 SGs who shoot more efficiently than him (and honestly its a metric in Demar's favour since he doesn't pass much - pts per shot (rather than per possession) will likely drop his scoring efficiency)

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    All those SG you said you would pick over him shot lower percentage that DD from the field. DD was top5 in scoring at his position.
    They all had a higher TS% except Beal, who has potential to grow and shot much better in the second half of his rookie season. DeMar was 14th among shooting guards in per-minute scoring; he just played a lot of minutes.

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post

    Demar is not a top 10 SG - and the sad part is how shallow the SG position has become in the NBA today. Players I'd take over him in order to build with or 'win now' with (in no order and assuming health):

    Klay Thompson, Evans, Affalo, Beal, Sefolosha, Danny Green, Waiters, Wade, JJ, Kobe, Dudley, Reddick, Matthews, JR Smith and Mayo (although I'd regret doing it with both of them), Hayward, Gordon

    A couple that are just off the list because they are situational but still better than Demar - Allen (Ray and Tony), Crawford
    That list is where you lose me.

    Tyreke Evans: Is Demar with regressing stats every year while Demar makes small improvements
    Afflalo: I'm a massive fan of Afflalo, wouldn't complain if the Raps got him, but he's a more flawed player than Demar. He does nothing better than Demar.

    Beal: Another player I really like, but it's way too soon to judge him.


    Danny Green? Really? Sorry, can you explain this one to me? How is he in this conversation?

    Waiters doesn't have the numbers, clearly has attitude issues, thinks he's better than he is (didn't even try to pretend during summer league) BUT it is a bit too early to judge him.

    JJ: Had him in my fantasy league... he wishes he was as consistent as Demar. Definitely regressing.

    Also a lot of apple to orange comparisons on your list. Reddick, Ray Allen, Dudley are all guys that fit completely different schemes than Demar. But Ray is old as hell, Reddick is a worse defender than Demar, only Dudley piques my interest. If you want the Raps to play a one post player system then those guys have mad value, but I like JV and Amir personally.

    Strictly looking at numbers Demar is a top 10-15 player in the league. Being invited to USA Basketball is proof of that. I think the question should be does he fit this team? I say yes, especially with Gay possibly opting out at the end of the year, but there is a very strong argument that he should be moved-- I'm cool with that.

    So Gay is top 10, Demar is JUST outside the top 10, and everyone else on the team has something to prove.

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    They all had a higher TS% except Beal, who has potential to grow and shot much better in the second half of his rookie season. DeMar was 14th among shooting guards in per-minute scoring; he just played a lot of minutes.
    What's TS% rank?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Demar > JJ Reddick. It's not even a debate.

    We like to talk about DD's inefficiency but JR Smith is a hell of a lot more inefficient.

    I don't even feel like going on, everyone else has already said a lot of the shit I was going to say.

    It seems like some of us like to under-value our players and over-value others because it sounds like they know what they're talking about. <-- Seems like a child-ish way to put it but that's the vibe I get from posts like the one TKFU made.

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    I'd add Rubio and Conley to the list of "definitely better", and Dragic and Bledsoe to the list of "arguably better" at PG.

    Batum, Kirilenko, Kawhi Leonard, Paul Pierce and Deng are better than Rudy, and if we're going to talk about JV's potential, it's only fair to mention Barnes and Jimmy Butler on the SF list as well. Iggy's a better SF than Gay as well, though he's also a better SG than DeMar.

    Other shooting guards I'd definitely rather have than DeMar: Kevin Martin, O.J. Mayo, Wes Matthews, JJ Redick, Joe Johnson (if we're disregarding contracts), J.R. Smith, Afflalo. Counting Iggy, that puts him at 12th, but depending on how much you value defense, shooting, and/or hustle: Sefalosha, Dudley, Danny Green, and Tony Allen could all make a strong case for being above DeMar.
    You have no idea what you're talking about. Rudy Gay is better than all five of those guys at this stage (Kawhi leonard will probably end up being better). DeMar is hands down a better player than K mart, Mayo, Matthews, Reddick, and Afflalo. Everyone else is either on par or slightly better. DeMar and Rudy add more wins to this team than any of those guys would to their own teams. And don't gimme that BS about how they play more minutes because that's irrelevant. They are getting those minutes because they help the team win. A lot of those players you listed are role players that can only do 1 or 2 things well and everything else horribly.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    What's TS% rank?
    i think it means true shooting percent
    True shooting percentage is a measure of shooting efficiency that takes into account field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html
    What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
    The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
    No Where Near the South Side #WeTheNorth

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    This is kind of a silly thread. We know the starting lineup is good--top 10 in the league probably. It's better to look at the whole than the parts, but I'll bite...

    Lowry: Could be top 10, but with the uncertainty of whether he'll return to Houston form (especially given the scoring pop from Demar Rudy and JV which might lower his point total) I'd say he's top 15 right now

    DeRozan: He does one thing very well: play big minutes, and that's going to be very key with an average-looking bench. Also I'm sorry but DeRozan is better than JJ Redick and Thabo friggin Sefolosha, get real guys. Geez

    Gay: Definitely top 10, and positioned to move up on that list. Better than Andrei Kirilenko wtf people

    Johnson: Not top 10 skill wise but he's that glue guy that makes everyone else better. He doesn't hog plays, gets rebounds, is a willing passer and will run the pick and roll well. Also a defensive presence. It's no wonder he led the Raps in plus/minus last year

    JV: Definitely could be top 10, obviously it's up in the air though

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    Dime Magazine did put Demar on the 10th spot on top 10 shooting guards.
    http://dimemag.com/2013/05/the-nbas-...-james-harden/

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    And
    Demar > JJ Reddick
    Demar > Kevin Martin
    Demar > Evans
    Demar > Afflalo
    Demar > Thabs
    Demar > Danny Green
    Demar > Waiters
    Demar > Hayward

    No contest.

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    I can't decide how much I want to be part of this thread. Just seems like it's bound to end up in angry arguments...I'll sum up my thoughts as briefly as possible (which is not so much at all).

    Gay is a top 10 SF. His biggest problem is consistency. He impacts the game in multiple ways, and is maybe one of about 10 wing players you can depend on to create and score in tough situations.

    Jonas is on his way to being a top 10 C. I can realistically see him as playing himself into that group this year, but in the bottom part of it. I can also see his ceiling as wide open still, and he could be in the debate for best C in the game down the road.

    These 2 guys are the only ones you can expect to perform at this level.

    DeMar has the talent. He has yet to display all the tools. However, if anyone can come up with a top 10 SG list where the bottom isn't pretty damn questionable, I'd be pretty impressed. It's a crapshoot position. That both makes DeMar look bad, but also makes it feasible he can move upward in that group. We'll see what happens this year. I know a lot of people are out of patience. I think they're a bit too sour from the Bargnani experience. I'm not saying DeMar will improve, but that it's not that unusual for any player to improve when he's still 23.

    *I didn't first think to mention PG. Lowry is not top 10. Maybe close....I think in that 10-15 range. It's a strong position, and there are probably at least 7 or 8 guys who are even markedly better than the rest of the talent pool at that position.

    **Edit: I want to explain something about the "Bargnani Experience". It is incredibly rare for a guy to get drafted, play big minutes for his whole career, and not even improve marginally in areas. I think maybe one summer he added a post move or two. This is the only development ever in Bargs' game. He never worked on his weaknesses. And he never worked to become better at his strenghts. Most players who want to can keep becoming better, even if it's by pretty small increments. I think DeMar is such a guy, but that still doesn't mean he'll finally make a leap and separate himself from the herd of unspectacular SGs....
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sun Jul 28th, 2013 at 01:40 PM.

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