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    Default Are the Raptors Top 10 at Each Position?

    Don't we technically have a top ten player at each position (except PF) moving forwards with this team?

    Assuming Lowry can stay healthy, get more involved as a scorer like he was in Houston and get back to the 15-7-5 on 55% TS (which is basically what he put up in 2011-2012 and he was splitting minutes with Dragic), isn't a he a top 10 point guard? He's also among the best defensive PGs in the league.

    The only PGs you can say are out right better than him overall are (no particular order):

    Deron Williams
    Rajon Rondo
    Derrick Rose
    Kyrie Irving
    John Wall
    Russell Westbrook
    Tony Parker
    Chris Paul
    Steph Curry

    And I guess you could argue Jrue Holiday is better, although I'd disagree with that, he basically made the all-star team by default and his TS% is below 50, his PER is pretty low for a top PG at 16 and he turns the ball over at a high rate.


    DeMar is quite obviously a top 10 SG, the only debate would be where he ranks from 4-10 after Kobe, Wade and Harden.

    Rudy Gay is the 5th best SF in the league after LBJ, Melo, KD and Paul George.

    Jonas Valanciunas has the potential to be one of the best centers in the league.



    I'm not sure if this is even relevant really, but I feel like adding another top 10 player at the PF position (which is possible in 2015 when we have about 20M cap space, assuming Lowry/Gay are extended for a combined 25M per year) would make this team a pretty strong contender.
    Last edited by Xixak; Tue Jul 30th, 2013 at 11:31 AM.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Don't we technically have a top ten player at each position (except PF) moving forwards with this team?

    Assuming Lowry can stay healthy, get more involved as a scorer like he was in Houston and get back to the 15-7-5 on 55% TS (which is basically what he put up in 2011-2012 and he was splitting minutes with Dragic), isn't a he a top 10 point guard? He's also among the best defensive PGs in the league.

    The only PGs you can say are out right better than him overall are (no particular order):

    Deron Williams
    Rajon Rondo
    Derrick Rose
    Kyrie Irving
    John Wall
    Russell Westbrook
    Tony Parker
    Chris Paul
    Steph Curry

    And I guess you could argue Jrue Holiday is better, although I'd disagree with that, he basically made the all-star team by default and his TS% is below 50, his PER is pretty low for a top PG at 16 and he turns the ball over at a high rate.


    DeMar is quite obviously a top 10 SG, the only debate would be where he ranks from 4-10 after Kobe, Wade and Harden.

    Rudy Gay is the 5th best SF in the league after LBJ, Melo, KD and Paul George.

    Jonas Valanciunas has the potential to be one of the best centers in the league.



    I'm not sure if this is even relevant really, but I feel like adding another top 10 player at the PF position (which is possible in 2015 when we have about 20M cap space, assuming Lowry/Gay are extended for a combined 25M per year) would make this team a pretty strong contender.
    I'd add Rubio and Conley to the list of "definitely better", and Dragic and Bledsoe to the list of "arguably better" at PG.

    Batum, Kirilenko, Kawhi Leonard, Paul Pierce and Deng are better than Rudy, and if we're going to talk about JV's potential, it's only fair to mention Barnes and Jimmy Butler on the SF list as well. Iggy's a better SF than Gay as well, though he's also a better SG than DeMar.

    Other shooting guards I'd definitely rather have than DeMar: Kevin Martin, O.J. Mayo, Wes Matthews, JJ Redick, Joe Johnson (if we're disregarding contracts), J.R. Smith, Afflalo. Counting Iggy, that puts him at 12th, but depending on how much you value defense, shooting, and/or hustle: Sefalosha, Dudley, Danny Green, and Tony Allen could all make a strong case for being above DeMar.

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    I'd add Rubio and Conley to the list of "definitely better", and Dragic and Bledsoe to the list of "arguably better" at PG.

    Batum, Kirilenko, Kawhi Leonard, Paul Pierce and Deng are better than Rudy, and if we're going to talk about JV's potential, it's only fair to mention Barnes and Jimmy Butler on the SF list as well. Iggy's a better SF than Gay as well, though he's also a better SG than DeMar.

    Other shooting guards I'd definitely rather have than DeMar: Kevin Martin, O.J. Mayo, Wes Matthews, JJ Redick, Joe Johnson (if we're disregarding contracts), J.R. Smith, Afflalo. Counting Iggy, that puts him at 12th, but depending on how much you value defense, shooting, and/or hustle: Sefalosha, Dudley, Danny Green, and Tony Allen could all make a strong case for being above DeMar.
    Wow. You think Redick, J.R. Smith, Kevin Martin, Mayo, Wes Matthews and Joe Johnson (at this point in his career) are all better than DeMar? I'd rather have DeRozan than any of those six guys

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    Quote Sam17 wrote: View Post
    Wow. You think Redick, J.R. Smith, Kevin Martin, Mayo, Wes Matthews and Joe Johnson (at this point in his career) are all better than DeMar? I'd rather have DeRozan than any of those six guys
    I'd take Reddick over DeMar, and maybe Mayo.

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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    I'd take Reddick over DeMar, and maybe Mayo.


    maybe you dont like demar or what ever the issue you have with him, reddick is no way better than demar and as for oj mayo, hes oj mayo
    What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
    The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
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    As it stands I only see one guy who is top 10 at their position in the league and thats Gay.

    If we expand that to who will likely be top 10 at their position Jonas gets added.

    Lowry isn't a top 10, but in part due to the depth at PG in the NBA right now.

    Demar is not a top 10 SG - and the sad part is how shallow the SG position has become in the NBA today. Players I'd take over him in order to build with or 'win now' with (in no order and assuming health):

    Klay Thompson, Evans, Affalo, Beal, Sefolosha, Danny Green, Waiters, Wade, JJ, Kobe, Dudley, Reddick, Matthews, JR Smith and Mayo (although I'd regret doing it with both of them), Hayward, Gordon

    A couple that are just off the list because they are situational but still better than Demar - Allen (Ray and Tony), Crawford

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post

    Demar is not a top 10 SG - and the sad part is how shallow the SG position has become in the NBA today. Players I'd take over him in order to build with or 'win now' with (in no order and assuming health):

    Klay Thompson, Evans, Affalo, Beal, Sefolosha, Danny Green, Waiters, Wade, JJ, Kobe, Dudley, Reddick, Matthews, JR Smith and Mayo (although I'd regret doing it with both of them), Hayward, Gordon

    A couple that are just off the list because they are situational but still better than Demar - Allen (Ray and Tony), Crawford
    That list is where you lose me.

    Tyreke Evans: Is Demar with regressing stats every year while Demar makes small improvements
    Afflalo: I'm a massive fan of Afflalo, wouldn't complain if the Raps got him, but he's a more flawed player than Demar. He does nothing better than Demar.

    Beal: Another player I really like, but it's way too soon to judge him.


    Danny Green? Really? Sorry, can you explain this one to me? How is he in this conversation?

    Waiters doesn't have the numbers, clearly has attitude issues, thinks he's better than he is (didn't even try to pretend during summer league) BUT it is a bit too early to judge him.

    JJ: Had him in my fantasy league... he wishes he was as consistent as Demar. Definitely regressing.

    Also a lot of apple to orange comparisons on your list. Reddick, Ray Allen, Dudley are all guys that fit completely different schemes than Demar. But Ray is old as hell, Reddick is a worse defender than Demar, only Dudley piques my interest. If you want the Raps to play a one post player system then those guys have mad value, but I like JV and Amir personally.

    Strictly looking at numbers Demar is a top 10-15 player in the league. Being invited to USA Basketball is proof of that. I think the question should be does he fit this team? I say yes, especially with Gay possibly opting out at the end of the year, but there is a very strong argument that he should be moved-- I'm cool with that.

    So Gay is top 10, Demar is JUST outside the top 10, and everyone else on the team has something to prove.

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Lowry isn't a top 10, but in part due to the depth at PG in the NBA right now.
    exactly. in addition to the 9 players xixak has pointed out that are inarguably better than lowry, i don't think lowry can be said to be inarguably better than the following players: mike conley, ricky rubio, jrue holiday, ty lawson, eric bledsoe, damian lillard, kemba walker, goran dragic, jeff teague, geore hill, brandon jennings.

    so, it can be argued that he's not in the top 20 just as easily as it can be argued that he's in the top 10. personally, there are 8 players on my list that i'd definitely rather have as this franchises point guard than lowry, so i've got him ranked at 18th.
    Last edited by chris; Sun Jul 28th, 2013 at 02:06 PM.

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    I'd add Rubio and Conley to the list of "definitely better", and Dragic and Bledsoe to the list of "arguably better" at PG.

    Batum, Kirilenko, Kawhi Leonard, Paul Pierce and Deng are better than Rudy, and if we're going to talk about JV's potential, it's only fair to mention Barnes and Jimmy Butler on the SF list as well. Iggy's a better SF than Gay as well, though he's also a better SG than DeMar.

    Other shooting guards I'd definitely rather have than DeMar: Kevin Martin, O.J. Mayo, Wes Matthews, JJ Redick, Joe Johnson (if we're disregarding contracts), J.R. Smith, Afflalo. Counting Iggy, that puts him at 12th, but depending on how much you value defense, shooting, and/or hustle: Sefalosha, Dudley, Danny Green, and Tony Allen could all make a strong case for being above DeMar.
    You have no idea what you're talking about. Rudy Gay is better than all five of those guys at this stage (Kawhi leonard will probably end up being better). DeMar is hands down a better player than K mart, Mayo, Matthews, Reddick, and Afflalo. Everyone else is either on par or slightly better. DeMar and Rudy add more wins to this team than any of those guys would to their own teams. And don't gimme that BS about how they play more minutes because that's irrelevant. They are getting those minutes because they help the team win. A lot of those players you listed are role players that can only do 1 or 2 things well and everything else horribly.

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    I'd add Rubio and Conley to the list of "definitely better", and Dragic and Bledsoe to the list of "arguably better" at PG.

    I would say Conley is arguably better, but about on the same tier as Lowry. They're a wash as scorers, while Lowry is much better on the glass while Conley is a slightly better defender. Rubio is gonna need to shoot higher than 36% from the field before we can talk about him being better than Lowry. Bledsoe is an unknown quantity as a starter at this point, and Dragic is probably close to Lowry's level offensively but KL is SIGNIFICANTLY better on the defensive side of the ball. So no you're wrong.

    Batum, Kirilenko, Kawhi Leonard, Paul Pierce and Deng are better than Rudy, and if we're going to talk about JV's potential, it's only fair to mention Barnes and Jimmy Butler on the SF list as well. Iggy's a better SF than Gay as well, though he's also a better SG than DeMar.

    Batum, Kirilenko and Kawhi Leonard are role players. Thrust them into Rudy's role as a primary scorer and all of those guys are going to shoot < 40% from the field. You have no freaking idea what you're talking about. Deng is also a role player who can't create his own shot, yes he's better than Gay defensively but Rudy is a far superior offensive threat. Pierce to be fair was probably better than Gay last year, but I doubt that'll be the case this year.

    Other shooting guards I'd definitely rather have than DeMar: Kevin Martin, O.J. Mayo, Wes Matthews, JJ Redick, Joe Johnson (if we're disregarding contracts), J.R. Smith, Afflalo. Counting Iggy, that puts him at 12th, but depending on how much you value defense, shooting, and/or hustle: Sefalosha, Dudley, Danny Green, and Tony Allen could all make a strong case for being above DeMar.

    Kevin Martin was more efficient than DeRozan last year, but he also gets to play off of Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook. Any time you can play next to two stars that's going to boost your efficiency. In the playoffs where he was thrust into the same role as DeMar (2nd option) he shot 38% from the field. OJ Mayo is not better than DeRozan by any metric, unless all you care about is shooting threes, and he was terrible in the 2nd half of the year when his 3-ball stopped falling at an unsustainable 50% rate.

    Wesley Matthews, Afflalo and JJ Redick are role players. All they do is come off screens and take open shots, and Demar STILL shot a better percentage than either of them on more attempts, including much more difficult shots. J.R. Smith was basically on par with DeMar last year, and Joe Johnson is DEFINITELY not better at this stage of his career. If you consider Iguodala a shooting guard (which most people would say he's not), it's not even for sure that he's better than DeMar. The last 4 guys you mentioned are just ridiculous to compare to DeMar's talent level.
    I understand if you don't like our players, but this ridiculous underrating is just getting absurd.

    Also for the people who think DeMar has barely improved because his scoring average hasn't gone up much since his second year. You need to take into account what kind of system he's playing in. We were 11th in pace in 2010-2011, and last year we were 24th. DeRozan's game OBVIOUSLY suits a more uptempo style. If you took this DeRozan and put him on that 2010-11 Triano team, he would have scored over 20 points per game.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Batum, Kirilenko and Kawhi Leonard are role players. Thrust them into Rudy's role as a primary scorer and all of those guys are going to shoot < 40% from the field.
    if rudy gay is the 4th best player on a good team (which he was in memphis) but takes shots like a first option (which he did) and that team gets better by trading him for worse players and redistributing his shots then what does that say about rudy gay?

    those players are far better in their roles than rudy is in his role as a number one option.

    fuck building this team around rudy gay. far too much is made around here about his ability to create, take, and occasionally make tough shots. that's one aspect of the game. doesn't make him a better player than role players who contribute to their teams in multiple other ways.

    the only way i want any part of rudy on this team going forward is at half his salary taking half as many shots as he currently does, and focusing on other aspects of his game. becoming a role player basically.

    because he's a shitty number one option.
    Last edited by chris; Sun Jul 28th, 2013 at 02:06 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    if rudy gay is the 4th best player on a good team (which he was in memphis) but takes shots like a first option (which he did) and that team gets better by trading him for worse players and redistributing his shots then what does that say about rudy gay?

    those players are far better in their roles than rudy is in his role as a number one option.

    fuck building this team around rudy gay. far too much is made around here about his ability to create, take, and occasionally make tough shots. that's one aspect of the game. doesn't make him a better player than role players who contribute to their teams in multiple other ways.

    the only way i want any part of rudy on this team going forward is at half his salary taking half as many shots as he currently does, and focusing on other aspects of his game. becoming a role player basically.

    because he's a shitty number one option.
    I'm not saying Rudy Gay is a good #1 option. All I said is he's a top 10 player at his position, that isn't up for debate.

    And did Memphis really get better after losing him? Their post-Gay record was slightly better in the regular season, but then what did they do in the playoffs? They lost the first two games to the Clippers, at which point Blake Griffin went down and they took advantage of a team missing its second best player, which also meant Z-Bo didn't have to work at all on defense. Then they beat the Thunder who had Durant and nothing else. As we've seen in the past it's very easy for a strong defensive team to beat a one-man show (see the multiple beatings that were given to LeBron and his Cavs by Orlando and Boston a few years ago).

    Then when they had their first test against a legitimately healthy team in the Spurs, they got beaten. Largely in part to not having a perimeter player capable of creating his own shot in late game situations. Gasol's efficiency suffered GREATLY due to having to have a larger role in the offense (39.7% from the field against San Antonio).

    I'm not saying you want Gay as your first option. He CANNOT be the first option on a championship level team in my opinion (unless you had an all-star at the other 4 positions like we saw with Detroit). But players like Gay are INTEGRAL to a championship team. In the playoffs, you need players who can get their own shot from multiple spots on the floor, and those players come at a premium cost for that reason. It's nice to have those 3 and D guys in your rotation as well throughout the game, but at the end of the day you're not going to put the ball in Danny Green or J.J. Redick's hands and ask them to hit shots in crunch time, I'm sorry it doesn't work like that.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I'm not saying you want Gay as your first option. He CANNOT be the first option on a championship level team in my opinion (unless you had an all-star at the other 4 positions like we saw with Detroit). But players like Gay are INTEGRAL to a championship team. In the playoffs, you need players who can get their own shot from multiple spots on the floor, and those players come at a premium cost for that reason. It's nice to have those 3 and D guys in your rotation as well throughout the game, but at the end of the day you're not going to put the ball in Danny Green or J.J. Redick's hands and ask them to hit shots in crunch time, I'm sorry it doesn't work like that.
    and this is such horse shit. friggin alan anderson can create his own shot and get you buckets at the end of games. where's his premium contract? the notion we should pay him 15 mil + or whatever you've deemed his Market Value to be because he can get a shot off is ludicrous. i'd rather we not make that investment, thanks.

    and good luck asking him to not be a top option. he has been every year he's been in the league except his rookie year, and one where he split the honours with z-bo. it is what he is and how he makes a living. high volume, high usage, one on one player that doesn't score efficiently at all.

    he's like the poorest man's melo. there aren't many players you'd rather have on your team if you need a bucket in the half court. but fuck do i ever hate his game and would hate to build a team around him.

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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    if rudy gay is the 4th best player on a good team (which he was in memphis) but takes shots like a first option (which he did) and that team gets better by trading him for worse players and redistributing his shots then what does that say about rudy gay?

    those players are far better in their roles than rudy is in his role as a number one option.

    fuck building this team around rudy gay. far too much is made around here about his ability to create, take, and occasionally make tough shots. that's one aspect of the game. doesn't make him a better player than role players who contribute to their teams in multiple other ways.

    the only way i want any part of rudy on this team going forward is at half his salary taking half as many shots as he currently does, and focusing on other aspects of his game. becoming a role player basically.

    because he's a shitty number one option.
    Rudy is a gifted player. My only two problems with him are his salary and the fact that Casey seems to use him as an offensive bail-out (the ISOs). I believe if he was properly utilized, he would be a lethal weapon to have no doubt.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Batum, Kirilenko and Kawhi Leonard are role players. Thrust them into Rudy's role as a primary scorer and all of those guys are going to shoot < 40% from the field.
    Um, Leonard was a primary option during much of the Finals this year (thanks to Parker being injured and Manu having an awful run) and he was shooting .545 FG% and .39 on three-pointers. I think it's fair to say Leonard's stepping up to the star level San Antonio (correctly) figured he could assume; I also think it's fair to say he's better than Rudy is.

    And while we're talking San Antonio, yeah, Danny Green is better than DeMar.

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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Um, Leonard was a primary option during much of the Finals this year (thanks to Parker being injured and Manu having an awful run) and he was shooting .545 FG% and .39 on three-pointers. I think it's fair to say Leonard's stepping up to the star level San Antonio (correctly) figured he could assume; I also think it's fair to say he's better than Rudy is.

    And while we're talking San Antonio, yeah, Danny Green is better than DeMar.
    Kawhi is better than Rudy at is being a role player, I'll give you that. Put the ball in his hands and ask him to create offense for you and you're going to lose a lot of games. Again the only reason he's more efficient offensively is because he isn't asked to be the man. He scores off offensive rebounds, fast breaks and open corner 3s (can't make 3s from any other spot).

    Kawhi is the kind of player that's only gonna help you win if you have multiple stars in place already.

    I'm not sure what metric you're using to determine that Green is better than DeRozan. He scores about the same points per shot as DeRozan despite more than half his shot attempts being open threes. As soon as you close out on him properly he can't do anything on offence off the bounce as we saw in the last 2 games of the finals. He's not much of a passer or rebounder (DeMar is better than him at both), he doesn't get to the free throw line at all.

    I think people tend to overrate players that go on deep playoff runs.

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    I'd add Rubio and Conley to the list of "definitely better", and Dragic and Bledsoe to the list of "arguably better" at PG.

    Batum, Kirilenko, Kawhi Leonard, Paul Pierce and Deng are better than Rudy, and if we're going to talk about JV's potential, it's only fair to mention Barnes and Jimmy Butler on the SF list as well. Iggy's a better SF than Gay as well, though he's also a better SG than DeMar.

    Other shooting guards I'd definitely rather have than DeMar: Kevin Martin, O.J. Mayo, Wes Matthews, JJ Redick, Joe Johnson (if we're disregarding contracts), J.R. Smith, Afflalo. Counting Iggy, that puts him at 12th, but depending on how much you value defense, shooting, and/or hustle: Sefalosha, Dudley, Danny Green, and Tony Allen could all make a strong case for being above DeMar.
    Why join this forum all your going to do is hate on this team.

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    As it stands I only see one guy who is top 10 at their position in the league and thats Gay.

    If we expand that to who will likely be top 10 at their position Jonas gets added.

    Lowry isn't a top 10, but in part due to the depth at PG in the NBA right now.

    Demar is not a top 10 SG - and the sad part is how shallow the SG position has become in the NBA today. Players I'd take over him in order to build with or 'win now' with (in no order and assuming health):

    Klay Thompson, Evans, Affalo, Beal, Sefolosha, Danny Green, Waiters, Wade, JJ, Kobe, Dudley, Reddick, Matthews, JR Smith and Mayo (although I'd regret doing it with both of them), Hayward, Gordon

    A couple that are just off the list because they are situational but still better than Demar - Allen (Ray and Tony), Crawford
    Yeah, good point: I totally forgot Gordon, Beal, Thompson, and Hayward. Also, Ginobili--even broken down as he is, he's better than DeMar. (I do think DeMar's better than Waiters, though.)

    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Why join this forum all your going to do is hate on this team.
    I'm not a hater (in fact, I happen to think Amir's a top ten power forward when you consider both ends of the floor), but I am a realist. DeMar's a low efficiency volume shooter who doesn't pass the ball well and has a below-average handle and plays--at best--average defense. #NBARank, which is a good barometer of general public perception, didn't even have him in the top 100 players in the league.That's not a description you can possibly apply to a "top ten" player. Lowry's good, but the point guard position is historically deep in the NBA right now, so it's damn hard to be top ten. And Rudy is coming off his worst season ever, and was barely considered to be a top 5 SF even before this year. JV's got the potential, but we've gotta wait and see if he realizes it.

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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    Yeah, good point: I totally forgot Gordon, Beal, Thompson, and Hayward. Also, Ginobili--even broken down as he is, he's better than DeMar. (I do think DeMar's better than Waiters, though.)



    I'm not a hater (in fact, I happen to think Amir's a top ten power forward when you consider both ends of the floor), but I am a realist. DeMar's a low efficiency volume shooter who doesn't pass the ball well and has a below-average handle and plays--at best--average defense. #NBARank, which is a good barometer of general public perception, didn't even have him in the top 100 players in the league.That's not a description you can possibly apply to a "top ten" player. Lowry's good, but the point guard position is historically deep in the NBA right now, so it's damn hard to be top ten. And Rudy is coming off his worst season ever, and was barely considered to be a top 5 SF even before this year. JV's got the potential, but we've gotta wait and see if he realizes it.
    All those SG you said you would pick over him shot lower percentage that DD from the field. DD was top5 in scoring at his position.

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    All those SG you said you would pick over him shot lower percentage that DD from the field. DD was top5 in scoring at his position.
    I don't know what all SG's scoring efficiencies are, but I did a points per possession based on usage and Demar came out just above average. I'm willing to bet there are more than 5 SGs who shoot more efficiently than him (and honestly its a metric in Demar's favour since he doesn't pass much - pts per shot (rather than per possession) will likely drop his scoring efficiency)

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