TRex wrote:
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Top 10 at Each Position?
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Lowry isn't necessarily top 10, but he has a case for the top 10, considering there are only 9 guys who you can say are flat-out better than him. The position is pretty deep so it's hard to establish concrete rankings. In fact after Chris Paul, you'll be hard pressed to find two people who agree on the order of the top 5.
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Demar has a fantastic attitude. Plays hard and improves every year. He's put on a lot of upper body strength. He's not a good shooter but is a good scorer. He finds ways to get his points, and does a good job of getting to the line. DD takes waay too much flak from some raps fans.
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NoPropsneeded wrote: View PostYou sound just as ridiculous as the people claiming he's top 10...
Is Lowry better than any of these guys?
Rondo
Deron
Holiday
Rose
Irving
Hill
Jennings
Kemba
Teague
Wall
Curry
Paul
Nash
Dragic
Calderon
Conley
Parker
Lawson
Rubio
Westbrook
Lillard
The answer is NO. Don't even argue.Last edited by The Great One; Sun Jul 28, 2013, 06:37 PM.Mamba Mentality
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Gay isn't a top 5 SF. He's top 10, though.
DeMar is a borderline top 10 SG. Probably right outside top 10.
Lowry is also borderline and might be in the top 10 if he stays healthy for a year and plays at his peak level from a few years ago. For now, you have to put Conley, Lawson, Holiday and several other guys ahead of him.
I'm a believer in Jonas but it's a long road. But yeah, that's the one position of strength long term.
And of course Amir isn't anywhere near top 10, but you weren't making that case anyway.
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tkfu wrote: View PostI'd add Rubio and Conley to the list of "definitely better", and Dragic and Bledsoe to the list of "arguably better" at PG.
Batum, Kirilenko, Kawhi Leonard, Paul Pierce and Deng are better than Rudy, and if we're going to talk about JV's potential, it's only fair to mention Barnes and Jimmy Butler on the SF list as well. Iggy's a better SF than Gay as well, though he's also a better SG than DeMar.
Other shooting guards I'd definitely rather have than DeMar: Kevin Martin, O.J. Mayo, Wes Matthews, JJ Redick, Joe Johnson (if we're disregarding contracts), J.R. Smith, Afflalo. Counting Iggy, that puts him at 12th, but depending on how much you value defense, shooting, and/or hustle: Sefalosha, Dudley, Danny Green, and Tony Allen could all make a strong case for being above DeMar.Twitter - @thekid_it
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TRex wrote: View PostIs Lowry better than any of these guys?
Rondo
Deron
Holiday
Rose
Irving
Hill
Jennings
Kemba
Teague
Wall
Curry
Paul
Nash
Dragic
Calderon
Conley
Parker
Lawson
Rubio
Westbrook
LillardTwitter - @thekid_it
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flamingtimbits wrote: View PostAnd
Demar > JJ Reddick
Demar > Kevin Martin
Demar > Evans
Demar > Afflalo
Demar > Thabs
Demar > Danny Green
Demar > Waiters
Demar > Hayward
No contest.
Tyreke too. Tyreke has a better handle and scoring ability, better defense, better rebounding and better spot up shooting ability. I'm trying very hard to think of some advantage for DeMar in that comparison, and I'm failing right now... Oh, I know, longevity. Tyreke had a few health issues in the past. So yeah, that could be an argument, it's important to have the guy on the floor. But as a player, he's clearly better.
The rest are debatable and I don't mind DeMar being ranked ahead of them, although I can see a case for those guys too. In most cases it depends on what the team needs.
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TRex wrote: View PostBecause.....?
Is Lowry better than any of these guys?
Rondo
Deron
Holiday
Rose
Irving
Hill
Jennings
Kemba
Teague
Wall
Curry
Paul
Nash (this guy is done)
Dragic
Calderon
Conley
Parker
Lawson
Rubio
Westbrook
Lillard
The answer is NO. Don't even argue.
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Why was this trade moved to the NBA section? I thought the debate was about Raptor players...
Nevertheless, I find these 'top 10 player in a certain position' lists very subjective. Each person is going to have a different definition of what they consider a top 10 player. I know people that don't consider Jordan the best NBA player of all time, and that's because they look at players in a different context.
Also positions have become gray over time. The 'wing' spot blurs. Is someone like Lebron a SF or a PF? What about Durant? And if you want to rank guys then do you consider their overall game or just the things they do well? For example would Novak be considered a top 10 player because he shoots the 3 really, really well? Or would you consider the other parts of his game and then rank his overall value?
Gay looks like a top 10 SF. He's athletic, has had a lot of 'top 10' moments already.. he's had game winners and is paid very well. His defense seems to hold up, but then you question his role in Memphis. They were willing to trade him for a 3rd string PF and an old vet. If you consider the 'money' side of things that's fine, but the team did pretty well without Gay in the line up. Subjectively I would consider Gay a top 10 SF but he's not an all-star, at least not yet and being a top 5 player / all-star means more than being a subjective top 10 player.
Lowry is more difficult to asses. He has had some really nice PER's in his career but does he really make the players around him better? And if he does not then is he really worth talking about as a top 10 PG? In my opinion a PG needs to make the guys around him better.. he needs to create and be a leader... When JV was not getting touches was that Casey or was that Lowry? Stats wise he looks good but as have been stated there are a lot of good PG's in the league. Top 10 would be questionable, and if you asked me before the start of last season I would have said yes.. but right now? I could probably think of 12-13 guys that I'd rather want on the team.
DeMar in my opinion gets a lot of slack on this forum, but I think that's because he's been on a bad team. I would not consider him a top 10 SG, and that's because he doesn't do much extremely well. Well I guess his mid-range game is one of the best, but is that something to get giddy about? There are two types of SG's that I would prefer... one that can create their own shot (so a very good isolation player, even if double teamed) or a 3&D guy (or both). A good 3&D player is very valuable. But so are guys that can create their own shot (ie, a second PG on the team). I don't think DeMar is good at either and therefore would not be in my opinion a top 10 player.
JV I hope will be a top 10 center. Although that's a big feat. He'd still have to be better than guys like Howard, Gasol, Noah, Cousins, Horford, Hibbert, Chandler, Pekovic, Lopez, Vucevic, and Asik.. and prove he's better then guys like Davis, Kanter, Sanders, Noel and Drummond.
That doesn't even include guys that will be coming into the league. I heard Okafor's cousin is going to be special - but who knows.
Saying all that.. the starting line up is probably a couple of tweaks away from being special. But there are a lot of other teams with better starting line ups and the Raptors have a lot of work ahead of them to compete with those teams. This is why the Raptors are a bubble team to make the playoffs in a bad Eastern conference.
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Xixak wrote: View PostBatum, Kirilenko and Kawhi Leonard are role players. Thrust them into Rudy's role as a primary scorer and all of those guys are going to shoot < 40% from the field.
And while we're talking San Antonio, yeah, Danny Green is better than DeMar.
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I think the very idea that we need a top-10 player at each position in order to be competitive is fundamentally flawed, and not a very good approach to building a basketball team. We need a top-10 system, one that utilizes the strengths of the players and masks the weaknesses of what we actually have. This is what team defense is for, to make up for the fact that someone on the floor is going to get beat in an ISO situation or post up at some point. I remember wings on Indy blowing by LBJ in the east finals, so even someone of Lebron's caliber can be beaten defensively.
I think the lineup we have is pretty good, and ultimately whether any of the players are top-10 in their respective positions is irrelevant. It's gonna come down to chemistry, trust, and hard-work...i.e. tough D and closing hard, with ball and player movement on offense (we didn't see much of that last year did we?).
In any event, getting a top-10 PF would probably require us moving one of our other (arguably) top-10 players. I believe in Amir, so I'm satisfied at the moment.
Anyways, I think JV will be top 10 with another season or two under his belt. I think DD is top-10, Rudy maybe, and Kyle could be, but he has as far to go as JV at this point/
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magoon wrote: View PostUm, Leonard was a primary option during much of the Finals this year (thanks to Parker being injured and Manu having an awful run) and he was shooting .545 FG% and .39 on three-pointers. I think it's fair to say Leonard's stepping up to the star level San Antonio (correctly) figured he could assume; I also think it's fair to say he's better than Rudy is.
And while we're talking San Antonio, yeah, Danny Green is better than DeMar.
Kawhi is the kind of player that's only gonna help you win if you have multiple stars in place already.
I'm not sure what metric you're using to determine that Green is better than DeRozan. He scores about the same points per shot as DeRozan despite more than half his shot attempts being open threes. As soon as you close out on him properly he can't do anything on offence off the bounce as we saw in the last 2 games of the finals. He's not much of a passer or rebounder (DeMar is better than him at both), he doesn't get to the free throw line at all.
I think people tend to overrate players that go on deep playoff runs.
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Btw for the people who don't think Lowry is under consideration for top 10:
8. Kyle Lowry, Toronto Raptors
Projected 2013-14 WARP: 8.1
Lowry has put up right around 8.0 WARP in each of the last three seasons. He's in his prime and remains underrated. Could some younger guards behind Lowry climb over him on the value ladder? Sure. There are a number of point guards with higher ceilings, but few who have demonstrated such a consistent level of play.
Obviously there's some flaws to JUST using WARP (Tony Parker isn't on the list for example), but that's yet another metric that indicates he's top 10.
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