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Thread: Top 10 at Each Position?

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Why was this trade moved to the NBA section? I thought the debate was about Raptor players...

    Nevertheless, I find these 'top 10 player in a certain position' lists very subjective. Each person is going to have a different definition of what they consider a top 10 player. I know people that don't consider Jordan the best NBA player of all time, and that's because they look at players in a different context.

    Also positions have become gray over time. The 'wing' spot blurs. Is someone like Lebron a SF or a PF? What about Durant? And if you want to rank guys then do you consider their overall game or just the things they do well? For example would Novak be considered a top 10 player because he shoots the 3 really, really well? Or would you consider the other parts of his game and then rank his overall value?

    Gay looks like a top 10 SF. He's athletic, has had a lot of 'top 10' moments already.. he's had game winners and is paid very well. His defense seems to hold up, but then you question his role in Memphis. They were willing to trade him for a 3rd string PF and an old vet. If you consider the 'money' side of things that's fine, but the team did pretty well without Gay in the line up. Subjectively I would consider Gay a top 10 SF but he's not an all-star, at least not yet and being a top 5 player / all-star means more than being a subjective top 10 player.

    Lowry is more difficult to asses. He has had some really nice PER's in his career but does he really make the players around him better? And if he does not then is he really worth talking about as a top 10 PG? In my opinion a PG needs to make the guys around him better.. he needs to create and be a leader... When JV was not getting touches was that Casey or was that Lowry? Stats wise he looks good but as have been stated there are a lot of good PG's in the league. Top 10 would be questionable, and if you asked me before the start of last season I would have said yes.. but right now? I could probably think of 12-13 guys that I'd rather want on the team.

    DeMar in my opinion gets a lot of slack on this forum, but I think that's because he's been on a bad team. I would not consider him a top 10 SG, and that's because he doesn't do much extremely well. Well I guess his mid-range game is one of the best, but is that something to get giddy about? There are two types of SG's that I would prefer... one that can create their own shot (so a very good isolation player, even if double teamed) or a 3&D guy (or both). A good 3&D player is very valuable. But so are guys that can create their own shot (ie, a second PG on the team). I don't think DeMar is good at either and therefore would not be in my opinion a top 10 player.

    JV I hope will be a top 10 center. Although that's a big feat. He'd still have to be better than guys like Howard, Gasol, Noah, Cousins, Horford, Hibbert, Chandler, Pekovic, Lopez, Vucevic, and Asik.. and prove he's better then guys like Davis, Kanter, Sanders, Noel and Drummond.

    That doesn't even include guys that will be coming into the league. I heard Okafor's cousin is going to be special - but who knows.


    Saying all that.. the starting line up is probably a couple of tweaks away from being special. But there are a lot of other teams with better starting line ups and the Raptors have a lot of work ahead of them to compete with those teams. This is why the Raptors are a bubble team to make the playoffs in a bad Eastern conference.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Batum, Kirilenko and Kawhi Leonard are role players. Thrust them into Rudy's role as a primary scorer and all of those guys are going to shoot < 40% from the field.
    Um, Leonard was a primary option during much of the Finals this year (thanks to Parker being injured and Manu having an awful run) and he was shooting .545 FG% and .39 on three-pointers. I think it's fair to say Leonard's stepping up to the star level San Antonio (correctly) figured he could assume; I also think it's fair to say he's better than Rudy is.

    And while we're talking San Antonio, yeah, Danny Green is better than DeMar.

  4. #43
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    I think the very idea that we need a top-10 player at each position in order to be competitive is fundamentally flawed, and not a very good approach to building a basketball team. We need a top-10 system, one that utilizes the strengths of the players and masks the weaknesses of what we actually have. This is what team defense is for, to make up for the fact that someone on the floor is going to get beat in an ISO situation or post up at some point. I remember wings on Indy blowing by LBJ in the east finals, so even someone of Lebron's caliber can be beaten defensively.

    I think the lineup we have is pretty good, and ultimately whether any of the players are top-10 in their respective positions is irrelevant. It's gonna come down to chemistry, trust, and hard-work...i.e. tough D and closing hard, with ball and player movement on offense (we didn't see much of that last year did we?).

    In any event, getting a top-10 PF would probably require us moving one of our other (arguably) top-10 players. I believe in Amir, so I'm satisfied at the moment.

    Anyways, I think JV will be top 10 with another season or two under his belt. I think DD is top-10, Rudy maybe, and Kyle could be, but he has as far to go as JV at this point/

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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Um, Leonard was a primary option during much of the Finals this year (thanks to Parker being injured and Manu having an awful run) and he was shooting .545 FG% and .39 on three-pointers. I think it's fair to say Leonard's stepping up to the star level San Antonio (correctly) figured he could assume; I also think it's fair to say he's better than Rudy is.

    And while we're talking San Antonio, yeah, Danny Green is better than DeMar.
    Kawhi is better than Rudy at is being a role player, I'll give you that. Put the ball in his hands and ask him to create offense for you and you're going to lose a lot of games. Again the only reason he's more efficient offensively is because he isn't asked to be the man. He scores off offensive rebounds, fast breaks and open corner 3s (can't make 3s from any other spot).

    Kawhi is the kind of player that's only gonna help you win if you have multiple stars in place already.

    I'm not sure what metric you're using to determine that Green is better than DeRozan. He scores about the same points per shot as DeRozan despite more than half his shot attempts being open threes. As soon as you close out on him properly he can't do anything on offence off the bounce as we saw in the last 2 games of the finals. He's not much of a passer or rebounder (DeMar is better than him at both), he doesn't get to the free throw line at all.

    I think people tend to overrate players that go on deep playoff runs.

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    Btw for the people who don't think Lowry is under consideration for top 10:

    8. Kyle Lowry, Toronto Raptors
    Projected 2013-14 WARP: 8.1

    Lowry has put up right around 8.0 WARP in each of the last three seasons. He's in his prime and remains underrated. Could some younger guards behind Lowry climb over him on the value ladder? Sure. There are a number of point guards with higher ceilings, but few who have demonstrated such a consistent level of play.
    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story...s-warp-2013-14

    Obviously there's some flaws to JUST using WARP (Tony Parker isn't on the list for example), but that's yet another metric that indicates he's top 10.

  7. #46
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Btw for the people who don't think Lowry is under consideration for top 10:



    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story...s-warp-2013-14

    Obviously there's some flaws to JUST using WARP (Tony Parker isn't on the list for example), but that's yet another metric that indicates he's top 10.
    I'm not buying it...yet. He'll prove where he belongs this season I'm sure, but the WARP stat isn't gonna convince me...it's up to Lowry to do that.

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  9. #47
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Because.....?

    Is Lowry better than any of these guys?

    Rondo
    Deron
    Holiday
    Rose
    Irving
    Hill
    Jennings
    Kemba
    Teague
    Wall
    Curry
    Paul
    Nash
    Dragic
    Calderon
    Conley
    Parker
    Lawson
    Rubio
    Westbrook
    Lillard

    The answer is NO. Don't even argue.
    I saw this post late, But the others pretty much replied for me (thanks Xixak). You're wrong

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    I saw this post late, But the others pretty much replied for me (thanks Xixak). You're wrong
    Lol no worries man.

    Like I understand that people don't like the way that some of our players fit, but that guy basically said that Lowry is one of the worst 10 starting PGs in the league lmao.

    It's so silly to say that guys like Hill (who isn't even a true PG at all), Jennings, Kemba, Teague, Dragic, Calderon (this is just lol-worthy coming from a Raptors fan) and Rubio are better than him. Honestly...

  12. #49
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Lol no worries man.

    Like I understand that people don't like the way that some of our players fit, but that guy basically said that Lowry is one of the worst 10 starting PGs in the league lmao.

    It's so silly to say that guys like Hill (who isn't even a true PG at all), Jennings, Kemba, Teague, Dragic, Calderon (this is just lol-worthy coming from a Raptors fan) and Rubio are better than him. Honestly...
    what the fuck does kyle lowry do way better than any of those guys?

    to my eyes rubio is one of the best passer's i've ever seen, the best passer in the league right now, and one of the league's very best defensive pg's.

    hill is also a great defensive pg and has never won less than 49 games in a non lockout-shortened season. bonus points because he was pop's favorite player.

    it's so clear-cut between kemba and lowry because walker plays on a bad team and lowry has a rich history of winning?

    i'm honestly curious where this shit comes from.
    Last edited by chris; Mon Jul 29th, 2013 at 10:51 PM.

  13. #50
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I'm not saying you want Gay as your first option. He CANNOT be the first option on a championship level team in my opinion (unless you had an all-star at the other 4 positions like we saw with Detroit). But players like Gay are INTEGRAL to a championship team. In the playoffs, you need players who can get their own shot from multiple spots on the floor, and those players come at a premium cost for that reason. It's nice to have those 3 and D guys in your rotation as well throughout the game, but at the end of the day you're not going to put the ball in Danny Green or J.J. Redick's hands and ask them to hit shots in crunch time, I'm sorry it doesn't work like that.
    and this is such horse shit. friggin alan anderson can create his own shot and get you buckets at the end of games. where's his premium contract? the notion we should pay him 15 mil + or whatever you've deemed his Market Value to be because he can get a shot off is ludicrous. i'd rather we not make that investment, thanks.

    and good luck asking him to not be a top option. he has been every year he's been in the league except his rookie year, and one where he split the honours with z-bo. it is what he is and how he makes a living. high volume, high usage, one on one player that doesn't score efficiently at all.

    he's like the poorest man's melo. there aren't many players you'd rather have on your team if you need a bucket in the half court. but fuck do i ever hate his game and would hate to build a team around him.

  14. #51
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Why was this trade moved to the NBA section? I thought the debate was about Raptor players...
    agreed. this discussion has been about where the raptors starting lineup stacks up against the rest of the league. couldn't the thread title just be changed?

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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    and this is such horse shit. friggin alan anderson can create his own shot and get you buckets at the end of games. where's his premium contract? the notion we should pay him 15 mil + or whatever you've deemed his Market Value to be because he can get a shot off is ludicrous. i'd rather we not make that investment, thanks.

    and good luck asking him to not be a top option. he has been every year he's been in the league except his rookie year, and one where he split the honours with z-bo. it is what he is and how he makes a living. high volume, high usage, one on one player that doesn't score efficiently at all.

    he's like the poorest man's melo. there aren't many players you'd rather have on your team if you need a bucket in the half court. but fuck do i ever hate his game and would hate to build a team around him.
    May I remind you that he had ONE off year shooting the ball. Rudy has shot 45-35-80 (around 55% TS) for the bulk of his career.

    You don't ask him not to be the top option, you add a better player than him to the team. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we have a title contender on our hands, but we're looking at having a lot of flexibility and trade assets in 2 seasons even if we re-sign Gay and Lowry for 8 figure contracts.

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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    agreed. this discussion has been about where the raptors starting lineup stacks up against the rest of the league. couldn't the thread title just be changed?
    Pretty sure the mod that moved it probably didn't even open the damn thread.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Pretty sure the mod that moved it probably didn't even open the damn thread.
    could you change the thread title to something like "do the RAPTORS have top ten RAPTORS at each RAPTOR?"

    maybe the same mod will move it back without opening it

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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    could you change the thread title to something like "do the RAPTORS have top ten RAPTORS at each RAPTOR?"

    maybe the same mod will move it back without opening it
    How do I do that?

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    How do I do that?
    i'm not actually certain it's possible because i don't believe i've ever made a thread here, but most boards i've posted on the OP can edit thread titles.

    can you edit the title of your OP?

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    Quote chris wrote: View Post
    i'm not actually certain it's possible because i don't believe i've ever made a thread here, but most boards i've posted on the OP can edit thread titles.

    can you edit the title of your OP?
    I have no idea how to lol

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    I saw this post late, But the others pretty much replied for me (thanks Xixak). You're wrong
    Because??

    You didn't asnwer my question. At least give an explanation. Or maybe you've never seen any of the players that i listed play?
    Last edited by TRex; Wed Jul 31st, 2013 at 07:45 PM.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar lilmamba_'s Avatar
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    ahhh, beef ^^^
    What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
    The city embraced me, made me feel at home. The only difference [between Compton and Toronto] for me is the cold. -DeMar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Because??

    You didn't asnwer my question. At least give an explanation. Or maybe you've never seen any of the players that i listed play?
    I've seen all of them play. Your list was ridiculous, i see no reason to reply because people already have. I'd just be echoing them

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