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Thread: Top 10 at Each Position?

  1. #61
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Should actually be higher on that list in my opinion. He's better than Klay Thompson and Joe Johnson at this point.
    I'd have to disagree with that. He's an arguablely borderline top 10 SG in the NBA, so you can argue either side. Klay Thompson is much better than Demar. He's still in his second year of the NBA and he's shown he can be a reliable shooter who can just light it up at any moment. I'm pretty sure if you ask a non-Raptors fan, who isn't bias, they would much rather have Thompson on their team than Demar. As for Johnson, I personally don't think Demar isn't better per say. They're roughly on par with each other.

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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    Yes.
    I agree with every bold expect maybe Kemba. He has a very bright future and I think that Kemba will be better than Lowry next season.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I bolded all the guys Lowry is clearly better than and underlined the guys who he's about on par with. Funny enough that left me with 9 guys who are outright better than Lowry.
    I agree with all the bolds expect maybe Kemba. Lowry is not clearly better than Lowry. There is an argument that can be made there. If Walker continues his improvement, Walker will have a better season and career than Lowry. As for the underlines, I don't agree with Lawson or Lillard from an offensive standpoint. Lawson and Lillard have much a better offensive game than Lowry easily. However, I much rather have Lowry from a defensive standpoint which works for our defense-first mentality going into training camp.

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    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
    I agree with all the bolds expect maybe Kemba. Lowry is not clearly better than Lowry. There is an argument that can be made there. If Walker continues his improvement, Walker will have a better season and career than Lowry.

    I'm speaking in terms of right now. Right now Lowry is a better point guard than Walker.

    As for the underlines, I don't agree with Lawson or Lillard from an offensive standpoint. Lawson and Lillard have much a better offensive game than Lowry easily. However, I much rather have Lowry from a defensive standpoint which works for our defense-first mentality going into training camp.

    Lawson and Lillard are better offensively but Lowry is much better defensively. Defense is half of the game.
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    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
    I'd have to disagree with that. He's an arguablely borderline top 10 SG in the NBA, so you can argue either side. Klay Thompson is much better than Demar. He's still in his second year of the NBA and he's shown he can be a reliable shooter who can just light it up at any moment. I'm pretty sure if you ask a non-Raptors fan, who isn't bias, they would much rather have Thompson on their team than Demar. As for Johnson, I personally don't think Demar isn't better per say. They're roughly on par with each other.
    What is Klay better than DeMar at besides shooting primarily uncontested 3s?

    DeMar has a higher PER (14.7 to 12.7)
    DeMar has higher win shares (4.7 to 4.3 and 0.75 to 0.7 per 48)
    DeMar has the same difference between ORtg and DRtg despite playing on a crappy team (-5)
    DeMar scores more points (18.1) on the same number of shots (14.7) than Klay (16.6) despite hardly making any threes
    DeMar rebounds (3.9 to 3.8) and assists (2.5 to 2.2) slightly better per 36
    DeMar has a higher assist rate (12.0% to 10.1%)
    DeMar has a lower turnover rate (9.6% to 11.0%)
    DeMar has a higher rebounding rate (6.3% to 5.7%)

    The only argument you really have is that Klay's TS% is 1% higher, which basically means nothing. This is a classic case of overrating a player because their team went deep in the playoffs. Which is why everyone thinks Paul George is a superstar now. And btw Klay was even worse in the playoffs than in the regular season.


    Joe Johnson at this stage of his career is just not a better player than DeRozan by any stretch of the imagination.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    What is Klay better than DeMar at besides shooting primarily uncontested 3s?

    DeMar has a higher PER (14.7 to 12.7)
    DeMar has higher win shares (4.7 to 4.3 and 0.75 to 0.7 per 48)
    DeMar has the same difference between ORtg and DRtg despite playing on a crappy team (-5)
    DeMar scores more points (18.1) on the same number of shots (14.7) than Klay (16.6) despite hardly making any threes
    DeMar rebounds (3.9 to 3.8) and assists (2.5 to 2.2) slightly better per 36
    DeMar has a higher assist rate (12.0% to 10.1%)
    DeMar has a lower turnover rate (9.6% to 11.0%)
    DeMar has a higher rebounding rate (6.3% to 5.7%)

    The only argument you really have is that Klay's TS% is 1% higher, which basically means nothing. This is a classic case of overrating a player because their team went deep in the playoffs. Which is why everyone thinks Paul George is a superstar now. And btw Klay was even worse in the playoffs than in the regular season.


    Joe Johnson at this stage of his career is just not a better player than DeRozan by any stretch of the imagination.
    Dude, you are shutting down the DeMar haters!

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    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
    I agree with all the bolds expect maybe Kemba. Lowry is not clearly better than Lowry. There is an argument that can be made there. If Walker continues his improvement, Walker will have a better season and career than Lowry. As for the underlines, I don't agree with Lawson or Lillard from an offensive standpoint. Lawson and Lillard have much a better offensive game than Lowry easily. However, I much rather have Lowry from a defensive standpoint which works for our defense-first mentality going into training camp.
    Never has a more true statement ever been made

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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    Dude, you are shutting down the DeMar haters!
    This sounds vaguely like sarcasm but I'll take it as a compliment...

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    So, based on this analysis, that we have 4 top ten players going forward, how many wins this year?

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Never has a more true statement ever been made
    Well that's a kick in the nuts isn't it... Well done Craiger haha

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    So, based on this analysis, that we have 4 top ten players going forward, how many wins this year?
    Dude what are you talking about? we have 15 players in the top 5 we're going undefeated all the way to the finals

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    This sounds vaguely like sarcasm but I'll take it as a compliment...
    Not at all sarcastic. There were many arguments concerning DD during last season and the pro-dd camp never had a stats junkie like yourself to help back them up. At least, I don't recall you getting involved in the conversation at that time. In any event, I tried my best to argue in favour of Demar, and my argument was based mainly on the fact that the team played a shitty "team" game, i.e. ISO heavy, and that Demar's deficiencies were mainly a result of using him the wrong way and that the team did little to promote Demar using his strengths, and instead were satisfied letting him shoot deep shots that he isn't very good at. So, the haters wanted Demar to be something he isn't rather than change the style the team played in order to get the most out of him, and in a way that would be more efficient. See my signature!! Anyways, stats are always good to back up arguments, so keep them coming!!

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    What is Klay better than DeMar at besides shooting primarily uncontested 3s?

    DeMar has a higher PER (14.7 to 12.7)
    DeMar has higher win shares (4.7 to 4.3 and 0.75 to 0.7 per 48)
    DeMar has the same difference between ORtg and DRtg despite playing on a crappy team (-5)
    DeMar scores more points (18.1) on the same number of shots (14.7) than Klay (16.6) despite hardly making any threes
    DeMar rebounds (3.9 to 3.8) and assists (2.5 to 2.2) slightly better per 36
    DeMar has a higher assist rate (12.0% to 10.1%)
    DeMar has a lower turnover rate (9.6% to 11.0%)
    DeMar has a higher rebounding rate (6.3% to 5.7%)
    You pay too much attention on numbers. I watched a lot of Warriors and Raptors game last season. Klay Thompson is the better player and it's not close.
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    You pay too much attention on numbers. I watched a lot of Warriors and Raptors game last season. Klay Thompson is the better player and it's not close.
    I'm actually not even a stats guy first, I'm about what I see on the court.

    Klay might be a better fit on the Warriors because of his 3 ball but he is certainly not the better player. DeRozan who isn't even considered a great shot creator is far better at creating his own shot. He also does a better job of creating opportunities for his teammates with his drive and kick game. Additionally he has the 3rd best post game of any 2-guard in the league, Klay's post game is about as good as my ability to write in Ancient Greek.

    Klay pretty much just has more range. He also plays on a more uptempo team which should inflate his scoring, yet DD still outscores him on the same # of shots. If we played at the Warriors pace DeMar would be over 20 a game.

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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    Not at all sarcastic. There were many arguments concerning DD during last season and the pro-dd camp never had a stats junkie like yourself to help back them up. At least, I don't recall you getting involved in the conversation at that time. In any event, I tried my best to argue in favour of Demar, and my argument was based mainly on the fact that the team played a shitty "team" game, i.e. ISO heavy, and that Demar's deficiencies were mainly a result of using him the wrong way and that the team did little to promote Demar using his strengths, and instead were satisfied letting him shoot deep shots that he isn't very good at. So, the haters wanted Demar to be something he isn't rather than change the style the team played in order to get the most out of him, and in a way that would be more efficient. See my signature!! Anyways, stats are always good to back up arguments, so keep them coming!!
    Lol real talk, I've been trying to say this too. DeMar would thrive if we picked up the pace offensively. That's why he looked like a budding star his second year.

    I think in the halfcourt he should primarily work from either corner or the high post. Why? He can actually hit the corner 3, but unlike a typical 3+D player like a Danny Green or Jared Dudley, he can blow by his man and finish at the rim or get to the ft line if he's being played to tightly. His turnaround fadeaway on the baseline out of the post was also extremely effective last year.

    This is why everyone thinks the Spurs players are so good, and then they end up sucking on other teams (see Roger Mason). They are given specific roles and asked to play to their strengths. If you asked Kawhi Leonard to isolate and score off the bounce he would shoot 30% and be considered a chucker. Instead because all he has to do is hit corner 3s, cut and score off o-rebounds he's highly efficient and effective.

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  20. #76
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Dude what are you talking about? we have 15 players in the top 5 we're going undefeated all the way to the finals
    I'm just curious is all. I keep seeing all these posts about how good our players are and about how us cynics are overrating other teams' players and underestimating the Raps roster. So, I'm just wondering since all our players are so good, how many wins this year? If they have 3 or 4 guys who are top ten at their position, shouldn't the answer be 50+? Just interested....

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I'm just curious is all. I keep seeing all these posts about how good our players are and about how us cynics are overrating other teams' players and underestimating the Raps roster. So, I'm just wondering since all our players are so good, how many wins this year? If they have 3 or 4 guys who are top ten at their position, shouldn't the answer be 50+? Just interested....
    No it wouldn't be, stop putting words in our mouths. List of teams with 3 or more guys who are top 10 @ their position:

    East:
    Miami: Wade, LBJ, Bosh (actually all top 5 tbh)
    Indy: PG, Granger, Hibbert, West
    NY: Melo, Chandler, JR
    BKN: DWill, KG, PP, B-Lo
    CHI: Rose, Boozer, Deng, Noah
    CLE: Kyrie, Bynum, Varejao (at least he was last year when healthy)

    West:
    OKC: KD, RW, Ibaka
    SA: TD, Parker, maybe Manu and Kawhi
    LAC: CP3, Griffin, Crawford
    MEM: Conley (debatable), gasol, Z-Bo
    GSW: Curry, Iguodala, Lee, Bogut (when healthy)
    HOU: Harden, Dwight, Parsons (debatable)
    NOLA: EG, Holiday, Anthony Davis


    I specifically stated in the OP that this doesn't necessarily mean anything, I just wanted to know if people agreed that we have some top 10 positional guys.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    No it wouldn't be, stop putting words in our mouths. List of teams with 3 or more guys who are top 10 @ their position:

    East:
    Miami: Wade, LBJ, Bosh (actually all top 5 tbh)
    Indy: PG, Granger, Hibbert, West
    NY: Melo, Chandler, JR
    BKN: DWill, KG, PP, B-Lo
    CHI: Rose, Boozer, Deng, Noah
    CLE: Kyrie, Bynum, Varejao (at least he was last year when healthy)

    West:
    OKC: KD, RW, Ibaka
    SA: TD, Parker, maybe Manu and Kawhi
    LAC: CP3, Griffin, Crawford
    MEM: Conley (debatable), gasol, Z-Bo
    GSW: Curry, Iguodala, Lee, Bogut (when healthy)
    HOU: Harden, Dwight, Parsons (debatable)
    NOLA: EG, Holiday, Anthony Davis


    I specifically stated in the OP that this doesn't necessarily mean anything, I just wanted to know if people agreed that we have some top 10 positional guys.
    Well, let's look at last year and the teams you referenced (not including the teams with new additions you've included).

    East: Miami - 66 wins; Indy - 49; NY - 54; Brooklyn - 49 (with just D-Will and Lopez); Chi -No Rose, massive injurie, 45 wins;

    West: OKC - 60; SA -58; LAC - 56; MEM - 56; GSW - 47.

    So, why wouldn't 50+ wins be fair? What about 49? Those are the teams you referenced. Their records are clearly in the ~50 range. I just think it's odd to suggest that the Raps have that many top 10 players at their positions yet it doesn't mean anything, isn't relevant and doesn't necessarily translate into wins. All the teams you referenced clearly translated their talent into wins. If the Raps are that good, shouldn't we expect the same?

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Well, let's look at last year and the teams you referenced (not including the teams with new additions you've included).

    East: Miami - 66 wins; Indy - 49; NY - 54; Brooklyn - 49 (with just D-Will and Lopez); Chi -No Rose, massive injurie, 45 wins;

    West: OKC - 60; SA -58; LAC - 56; MEM - 56; GSW - 47.

    So, why wouldn't 50+ wins be fair? What about 49? Those are the teams you referenced. Their records are clearly in the ~50 range. I just think it's odd to suggest that the Raps have that many top 10 players at their positions yet it doesn't mean anything, isn't relevant and doesn't necessarily translate into wins. All the teams you referenced clearly translated their talent into wins. If the Raps are that good, shouldn't we expect the same?
    I didn't say the Raptors are as good as those teams. I'm just saying that we have some valuable individual players.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I didn't say the Raptors are as good as those teams. I'm just saying that we have some valuable individual players.
    and all he's said is you've overvalued them based on the evidence in the W column

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