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Thread: Raptors Sign Austin Daye

  1. #101
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Ujiri had not completed the building process in Denver when he left...imo. He had built what I would consider a sustainable base with much depth (bench strength) resulting in a 57 win season. I believe his next step would have been to acquire in f/a or trade (less likely) a franchise type player to take that team really deep.

    This is a more sustainable model...build the base/core and then acquire the finisher/s. F/a s are more amenable to sign on under these conditions.
    So the reverse of what Miami, Lakers, San Antonio, Boston have done and what Houston is now doing is what you are saying is more sustainable? I have my doubts about that considering their championship success and longevity those teams have enjoyed (minus Houston though I suspect they will with Harden and Howard tied up for years). Just my opinion, but I think it's better to start from the top and work your way down.

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    So the reverse of what Miami, Lakers, San Antonio, Boston have done and what Houston is now doing is what you are saying is more sustainable? I have my doubts about that considering their championship success and longevity those teams have enjoyed (minus Houston though I suspect they will with Harden and Howard tied up for years). Just my opinion, but I think it's better to start from the top and work your way down.
    Umm what...

    - Ok comparing us to Miami and LA is silly, because we'll never have the FA appeal of those teams.
    - San Antonio lucked into Tim Duncan, period.

    Boston and Houston both did what Ujiri is doing. Accumulated assets which allowed them to make trades for and clear cap space for stars. Boston was able to trade for two players, who were arguably BETTER than Pierce (KG: 22-13-4 the year before, RA: 26-5-4, PP: 25-6-4) because they spent years stockpiling valuable players, picks and other assets.

    So yes that is similar to what Ujiri is trying to do.

  3. #103
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Just my opinion, but I think it's better to start from the top and work your way down.
    Only works if you draft your top player. Otherwise no super big deal free agent is coming here.

  4. #104
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Only works if you draft your top player. Otherwise no super big deal free agent is coming here.
    Maybe the Raptors already have that top player in JV? Let's say JV explodes and becomes a 20/10 guy in his prime. Would a top free agent want to play with someone like him?

    I'm trying to not to create an argument for tanking/contending since this is an Austin Daye thread, but I do think that JV could attract high level talent to play with him and/or MU could poach top talent in a trade using the assets he's accumulating from a small market team that needs to rebuild all over again.

    For the Boston analogy you could say JV is Pierce, and their 2014 draft pick will be Rondo.

  5. #105
    Raptors Republic Superstar Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    So the reverse of what Miami, Lakers, San Antonio, Boston have done and what Houston is now doing is what you are saying is more sustainable? I have my doubts about that considering their championship success and longevity those teams have enjoyed (minus Houston though I suspect they will with Harden and Howard tied up for years). Just my opinion, but I think it's better to start from the top and work your way down.
    I would argue that Houston, Boston had bases before topping off with DH in Houston and KG and Allen in Boston. Miami of course had Wade before pulling off a "heist" that necessitated a CBA change. The Lakers always had Kobe since I can remember and cared not about the CAP. San Antonio as well added Duncan when they had a pretty good team with Robinson. We are in a new CBA era (onerous taxes) and also in effect starting a remake of the roster (as I see it). Going for the top dog before you have the support structure is not only not wise but unattainable...no f/a worth it would sign up under those circumstances.

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  7. #106
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Umm what...

    - Ok comparing us to Miami and LA is silly, because we'll never have the FA appeal of those teams.
    - San Antonio lucked into Tim Duncan, period.

    Boston and Houston both did what Ujiri is doing. Accumulated assets which allowed them to make trades for and clear cap space for stars. Boston was able to trade for two players, who were arguably BETTER than Pierce (KG: 22-13-4 the year before, RA: 26-5-4, PP: 25-6-4) because they spent years stockpiling valuable players, picks and other assets.

    So yes that is similar to what Ujiri is trying to do.
    I'm not comparing us to Miami or LA, I'm comparing models. They built their teams by acquiring elite level talent via free agency, trades or whatever is irrelevant. It wasn't until after this that they built their surrounding cast. I don't consider Ujiri's model to be more in line with Indiana. Lots of good players, but none that would be considered elite.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    I would argue that Houston, Boston had bases before topping off with DH in Houston and KG and Allen in Boston. Miami of course had Wade before pulling off a "heist" that necessitated a CBA change. The Lakers always had Kobe since I can remember and cared not about the CAP. San Antonio as well added Duncan when they had a pretty good team with Robinson. We are in a new CBA era (onerous taxes) and also in effect starting a remake of the roster (as I see it). Going for the top dog before you have the support structure is not only not wise but unattainable...no f/a worth it would sign up under those circumstances.
    This is why I'm as impressed as I am with what Morey had done in Houston. He understands there is no winning in the NBA (championship anyways) without elite level talent. And he managed to leverage all of his assets to acquire that talent starting from scratch (no Wade or Kobe to attract free agents). Imo, this is what all teams should be doing unless they are happy with a 50 win team without a shot at a championship. Don't get me wrong, as a Raptor fan this isn't the worst thing in the world, however it's short sighted.

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    Raptors Republic Starter c_bcm's Avatar
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    Quote phez wrote: View Post
    daye is pretty bad. not sure why they signed him
    Would you rather have Daye, or Jamaal Magloire? Because we are talking about the same spot on the bench.

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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    I would argue that Houston, Boston had bases before topping off with DH in Houston and KG and Allen in Boston. Miami of course had Wade before pulling off a "heist" that necessitated a CBA change. The Lakers always had Kobe since I can remember and cared not about the CAP. San Antonio as well added Duncan when they had a pretty good team with Robinson. We are in a new CBA era (onerous taxes) and also in effect starting a remake of the roster (as I see it). Going for the top dog before you have the support structure is not only not wise but unattainable...no f/a worth it would sign up under those circumstances.
    Boom. People need to start understanding this.

    Yeah let's trade away all our good players for whatever we can get then tank.

    Oh CRAP we didnt get a top 3 pick! And... he isnt a superstar... he isnt even an all-star.... this guy isn't even better than Rudy Gay...

    Inb4 someone says I'm exaggerating, but that's much more likely to happen than drafting a superstar. Just ask Minnesota or Sacramento what it's like to get raped by the lottery year after year.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Maybe the Raptors already have that top player in JV? Let's say JV explodes and becomes a 20/10 guy in his prime. Would a top free agent want to play with someone like him?

    I'm trying to not to create an argument for tanking/contending since this is an Austin Daye thread, but I do think that JV could attract high level talent to play with him and/or MU could poach top talent in a trade using the assets he's accumulating from a small market team that needs to rebuild all over again.

    For the Boston analogy you could say JV is Pierce, and their 2014 draft pick will be Rondo.


    I said last summer I'd be thrilled with 8/6. Year two 15/8 would be amazing with breakout party for year three.

    Also not trying to get in to tank conversation but few teams start with a building block like JV already on the roster.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    Would you rather have Daye, or Jamaal Magloire? Because we are talking about the same spot on the bench.
    Or Butler or Anthony Carter.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  14. #112
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Not that I care much about Colangelo, I do find it interesting how NOTHING this new guy does is looked upon poorly, everything he has done, people try to find some way to make it a "brilliant move".

    You got guys saying "tank or no tank", others talking about Toronto "finally headed in the right direction".

    All that is happening is yet another complete reset. Except. there is one real issue here, there is enough talent iin he starting five to make resetting more difficult.

    The way I'm seeing it, MU is banking on having the option to either draft Wiggans, or, cut a crap load of salary by waiving non-guaranteed guys to trade acquired picks or stiffs to whoever has the #1 pick, thus allowing them to draft wiggans, yet have room to take on some horrid albatross of a contract from that team.

    Big ifs, but not all bad really.

    Time will tell. But honestly, MU is signing stiffs like mad right now in hopes of a true dive.
    Nobody is giving up the number one pick for anything we have

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Boom. People need to start understanding this.

    Yeah let's trade away all our good players for whatever we can get then tank.

    Oh CRAP we didnt get a top 3 pick! And... he isnt a superstar... he isnt even an all-star.... this guy isn't even better than Rudy Gay...

    Inb4 someone says I'm exaggerating, but that's much more likely to happen than drafting a superstar. Just ask Minnesota or Sacramento what it's like to get raped by the lottery year after year.
    It is always a possibility.

    Again it all comes back to your mindset if a 7/8th seed is a ceiling or a stepping stone for this team.

    In coming to your conclusion you have to factor internal growth, CBA hurdles, market, etc.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  16. #114
    Raptors Republic Superstar Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    This is why I'm as impressed as I am with what Morey had done in Houston. He understands there is no winning in the NBA (championship anyways) without elite level talent. And he managed to leverage all of his assets to acquire that talent starting from scratch (no Wade or Kobe to attract free agents). Imo, this is what all teams should be doing unless they are happy with a 50 win team without a shot at a championship. Don't get me wrong, as a Raptor fan this isn't the worst thing in the world, however it's short sighted.
    I confess confusion. Morey did build his base first (trading his assets for picks mostly), then trading some picks and assets for a bigger fish (Harden) and signing lower tier f/as (Asik, Lin eg) solidifying his base and now topping off with Howard. I thought you do not prefer the bottom-up approach for the Raptors which I believe MU is in the process of enacting. As he has already said, this is not going to be a quick turnaround....unless something magical occurs.

  17. #115
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Boom. People need to start understanding this.

    Yeah let's trade away all our good players for whatever we can get then tank.

    Oh CRAP we didnt get a top 3 pick! And... he isnt a superstar... he isnt even an all-star.... this guy isn't even better than Rudy Gay...

    Inb4 someone says I'm exaggerating, but that's much more likely to happen than drafting a superstar. Just ask Minnesota or Sacramento what it's like to get raped by the lottery year after year.
    If Minnesota or Sacramento had a scouting team worth a damn, they would have a much better team than they do now. I would say that Toronto now has a scouting team worth a damn.

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  19. #116
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    I confess confusion. Morey did build his base first (trading his assets for picks mostly), then trading some picks and assets for a bigger fish (Harden) and signing lower tier f/as (Asik, Lin eg) solidifying his base and now topping off with Howard. I thought you do not prefer the bottom-up approach for the Raptors which I believe MU is in the process of enacting. As he has already said, this is not going to be a quick turnaround....unless something magical occurs.
    Perhaps it's just me not explaining myself well. My idea of Ujiri's model is to build a team based around good, but not great players similar to Indiana. In theory what he built in Denver was basically as good as it gets. No Dwight, no LeBron, just a bunch of Igoudala's and Lawson's. Houston basically shipped all of it's talent out for picks, young prospects and cap space which imo isn't what Ujiri was doing in Denver.

    So what I'm saying is if Ujiri wants to use the Houston model he needs to keep what he wants and sell off the rest for picks, cap space and young prospects.
    Last edited by Mediumcore; Wed Jul 31st, 2013 at 02:39 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    Would you rather have Daye, or Jamaal Magloire? Because we are talking about the same spot on the bench.
    It's more like would you rather AA or Austin Daye. I feel like he'll make a niche for himself. If he can shoot well in training camp and block shots. Landry Fields I'd be very worried right now. Casey will play Novak just cause he the only 30 year old on the team. Ross will play cause his the only back SG. That leaves Fields aka Mr. Small Ball. I think you'd rather Daye play small 4. Especially if his shooting the ball well.

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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    I confess confusion. Morey did build his base first (trading his assets for picks mostly), then trading some picks and assets for a bigger fish (Harden) and signing lower tier f/as (Asik, Lin eg) solidifying his base and now topping off with Howard. I thought you do not prefer the bottom-up approach for the Raptors which I believe MU is in the process of enacting. As he has already said, this is not going to be a quick turnaround....unless something magical occurs.
    I'm confused any time someone tries to use Morey and Houston as a shining example of great plan *shaking head*, particularly as some sort of justification for unloading best players and bottoming out for high picks. None of which is remotely close to what he did, or even tried.

    First, despite continuous 1st round exits, he never unloaded his best players (Yao, T-Mac), but lost them both to injury. Despite that, he never decided to bottom out. He kept chasing FAs, never getting elite ones, because they weren't interested in shit-town Houston. He did manage to get Lowry, then Dragic, both of which he unloaded/ let walk the same year, to go and overpay for Lin and Asik. He wanted Bosh from the Raps, but Bosh wouldn't agree to an extension. He chased Gasol. He chased Howard (round 1).

    His draft picks have generally been horrid (eg. Royce White?????), while he traded his best pick (Batum) for a couple of scrubs, before Batum saw the floor for them.

    All the while, he kept the team "competitive", at least as far as chasing playoffs, not lottery picks. Man, that team was floundering in no man's land, and the Lin & Asik deals were evidence of his desperation.

    He just got very lucky that Presti had a brain fart and made a bad deal unloading Harden for bit parts: K-Mart for half a year, Lamb, Jones, a 12th pick in a historically weak draft.

    There's even more to the story, but NOTHING about the desperate attempt after desperate attempt, and poor draft pick after poor draft pick of Morey and Houston is anywhere close to a shining example to follow. He got very lucky with Harden, period.
    Last edited by p00ka; Wed Jul 31st, 2013 at 02:56 PM.

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  23. #119
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    TBH Magloire could see time if we still had him Id rather him out there than Gray. Also the lack of everything Fields really makes me think my Ujiri trading him sometime soon is cming up.

  24. #120
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I'm confused any time someone tries to use Morey and Houston as a shining example of great plan *shaking head*, particularly as some sort of justification for unloading best players and bottoming out for high picks. None of which is remotely close to what he did, or even tried.

    First, despite continuous 1st round exits, he never unloaded his best players (Yao, T-Mac), but lost them both to injury. Despite that, he never decided to bottom out. He kept chasing FAs, never getting elite ones, because they weren't interested in shit-town Houston. He did manage to get Lowry, then Dragic, both of which he unloaded/ let walk the same year, to go and overpay for Lin and Asik. He wanted Bosh from the Raps, but Bosh wouldn't agree to an extension. He chased Gasol. He chased Howard (round 1).

    His draft picks have generally been horrid (eg. Royce White?????), while he traded his best pick (Batum) for a couple of scrubs, before Batum saw the floor for them.

    All the while, he kept the team "competitive", at least as far as chasing playoffs, not lottery picks. Man, that team was floundering in no man's land, and the Lin & Asik deals were evidence of his desperation.

    He just got very lucky that Presti had a brain fart and made a bad deal unloading Harden for bit parts: K-Mart for half a year, Lamb, Jones, a 12th pick in a historically weak draft.

    There's even more to the story, but NOTHING about the desperate attempt after desperate attempt, and poor draft pick after poor draft pick of Morey and Houston is anywhere close to a shining example to follow. He got very lucky with Harden, period.
    If Dwight goes down with a back injury I'm sure everyone would love to point at Houston and Morey and claim that model is how not to build a contender. The same people that think that the Lakers putting together the roster they put together last season was an awful move as well.

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