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Thread: Signs Of Tanking?

  1. #141
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    That trade doesn't work mathematically though. (Charlotte is taking on like 5M too much salary).
    They are taking on about $300k too much.

    I'm sure if Raps sent Richardson, they would happily send back Haywood.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Was not aware of that, cross them off the list too then.

    So it looks like right now there are no ideal trading partners for Gay.
    I still think Washington would make a good partner. Washington is contending (or trying to contend), Gay is from Baltimore and they have picks/prospects plus large expiring contracts like Okafor or Ariza

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    They are taking on about $300k too much.

    I'm sure if Raps sent Richardson, they would happily send back Haywood.
    Nvm you're right ESPN is really confusing with how they word it when you make a mistake. It said $5,289,000 or something, I thought it meant that's how much it was off by, but actually it only needs to be within $5M so yeah you're pretty close with 300K

    How would you feel about this trade (with us also getting OKC's pick and the DET 1st from Charlotte --- or their 1st depending on which they'd rather move)?

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=n8ke52x

    I think it makes sense on all fronts

    - Charlotte if they think it'll help them contend. Also get a backup defensive big to replace Biyombo

    - OKC gets a legitimate bench scorer (Gordon is 16-3-3 in his career and a 40% 3PT shooter) to replace Martin. Haywood replaces Perkins as their 0 skill big guy that can guard other centers because of size.

    - We absorb Perkins' deal which isn't really an issue because it's only 2 years and we'd be looking at rebuilding anyway. Get a potential PG of the future in Walker, Biyombo who still has a lot of defensive potential and Perry Jones who is another guy who supposedly had/has high upside who could just be let go if he sucks (team option). Gomes is tossed in to make salaries work and could just be waived to clear roster space. We also get a late lottery pick and a late 1st round pick in the deal.

    We could roll with

    Kemba
    DeRozan
    PJIII
    Biyombo
    Jonas

    If we're serious about getting a top 5 pick of our own.

  4. #144
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I still think Washington would make a good partner. Washington is contending (or trying to contend), Gay is from Baltimore and they have picks/prospects plus large expiring contracts like Okafor or Ariza
    Gay most likely ends up being redundant with Otto Porter in Washington.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I still think Washington would make a good partner. Washington is contending (or trying to contend), Gay is from Baltimore and they have picks/prospects plus large expiring contracts like Okafor or Ariza
    Ahh I forgot about this. They were rumoured to have interest in Gay last year also, although they have Otto Porter so I'm not sure they make a move like that unless he's having a terrible season.

  6. #146
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Nvm you're right ESPN is really confusing with how they word it when you make a mistake. It said $5,289,000 or something, I thought it meant that's how much it was off by, but actually it only needs to be within $5M so yeah you're pretty close with 300K

    How would you feel about this trade (with us also getting OKC's pick and the DET 1st from Charlotte --- or their 1st depending on which they'd rather move)?

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=n8ke52x

    I think it makes sense on all fronts

    - Charlotte if they think it'll help them contend. Also get a backup defensive big to replace Biyombo

    - OKC gets a legitimate bench scorer (Gordon is 16-3-3 in his career and a 40% 3PT shooter) to replace Martin. Haywood replaces Perkins as their 0 skill big guy that can guard other centers because of size.

    - We absorb Perkins' deal which isn't really an issue because it's only 2 years and we'd be looking at rebuilding anyway. Get a potential PG of the future in Walker, Biyombo who still has a lot of defensive potential and Perry Jones who is another guy who supposedly had/has high upside who could just be let go if he sucks (team option). Gomes is tossed in to make salaries work and could just be waived to clear roster space. We also get a late lottery pick and a late 1st round pick in the deal.

    We could roll with

    Kemba
    DeRozan
    PJIII
    Biyombo
    Jonas

    If we're serious about getting a top 5 pick of our own.
    Raptors don't have roster space to do such trade.

    But I don't like it. Who can shoot in that lineup besides Kemba?
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Raptors don't have roster space to do such trade.

    But I don't like it. Who can shoot in that lineup besides Kemba?
    We could very easily just cut some of the players on the end of our bench or send them down to the D-League, I don't think that would be an issue. Or we could just include them in the deal (can't right now b/c they were just signed).

    I thought the idea was to get as high a pick as possible? Playing that lineup would result in very few wins but also allow us to evaluate the talent level of Kemba, PJIII and Bismack. Admittedly, Casey probably wouldn't stand for this and would probably still start Amir/Hansbrough and Novak.

  8. #148
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    We could very easily just cut some of the players on the end of our bench or send them down to the D-League, I don't think that would be an issue. Or we could just include them in the deal (can't right now b/c they were just signed).

    I thought the idea was to get as high a pick as possible? Playing that lineup would result in very few wins but also allow us to evaluate the talent level of Kemba, PJIII and Bismack. Admittedly, Casey probably wouldn't stand for this and would probably still start Amir/Hansbrough and Novak.
    In this make believe fantasy land where we have control over what the Raptors will eventually do, the idea is to get as much value back as possible. Value, in my opinion, includes picks, prospects, cap space, and established players on rookie deals.

    Call me crazy but with Charlotte getting the two of the three best players - if not THE best two players - in the deal, I'm not sure why one would need to include OKC.

    Toronto could also have an advantage over Charlotte because one of the teams likely to want Gay would be Detroit and Charlotte owns their pick. If Detroit gets Gay, that is a disadvantage to Charlotte.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    In this make believe fantasy land where we have control over what the Raptors will eventually do, the idea is to get as much value back as possible. Value, in my opinion, includes picks, prospects, cap space, and established players on rookie deals.

    Call me crazy but with Charlotte getting the two of the three best players - if not THE best two players - in the deal, I'm not sure why one would need to include OKC.

    Toronto could also have an advantage over Charlotte because one of the teams likely to want Gay would be Detroit and Charlotte owns their pick. If Detroit gets Gay, that is a disadvantage to Charlotte.
    I included OKC so we could get an additional pick and also so Gordon wouldn't be either A. Rotting on our bench for 13M or B. Taking minutes away from Ross.

    I wasn't suggesting lowering the amount of value we were getting back, I basically just adjusted your trade and sent BG to OKC for another pick and a contract...

    Maybe we could squeeze a 2nd 1st out of Charlotte (Portland's maybe?), but I don't see what's wrong with the deal I posted. It's exactly the same as the one you suggested with us getting another pick from OKC...

  10. #150
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I included OKC so we could get an additional pick and also so Gordon wouldn't be either A. Rotting on our bench for 13M or B. Taking minutes away from Ross.

    I wasn't suggesting lowering the amount of value we were getting back, I basically just adjusted your trade and sent BG to OKC for another pick and a contract...

    Maybe we could squeeze a 2nd 1st out of Charlotte (Portland's maybe?), but I don't see what's wrong with the deal I posted. It's exactly the same as the one you suggested with us getting another pick from OKC...
    OKC just became a tax team. They pay luxury tax and miss out on revenue sharing. Don't see it being feasible.

    Also in taking back Perkins you are taking up $9.5M in cap space for the next (*edit* just one) summer. I would not expect the Raptors to be players in free agency but the cap space would be great for dealing with teams worried about the luxury tax (Cleveland with Memphis) or looking to dump players to make their own runs (Portland with Houston).
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Aug 8th, 2013 at 04:01 PM.
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  11. #151
    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I still think Washington would make a good partner. Washington is contending (or trying to contend), Gay is from Baltimore and they have picks/prospects plus large expiring contracts like Okafor or Ariza
    The Raptors are trying to contend too.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    OKC just became a tax team. They pay luxury tax and miss out on revenue sharing. Don't see it being feasible.
    The trade I posted only increases OKC's payroll by < 300K

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Also in taking back Perkins you are taking up $9.5M in cap space for the next (*edit* just one) summer. I would not expect the Raptors to be players in free agency but the cap space would be great for dealing with teams worried about the luxury tax (Cleveland with Memphis) or looking to dump players to make their own runs (Portland with Houston).
    We would still have cap space to work with though to make those kind of moves. I also think that the benefit of getting an additional 1st round pick outweighs having that extra cap space... which at best would probably be used for the same purpose except not for the 2014 draft making it worse imo (taking a bad contract along with a 1st).

  13. #153
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    The trade I posted only increases OKC's payroll by < 300K



    We would still have cap space to work with though to make those kind of moves. I also think that the benefit of getting an additional 1st round pick outweighs having that extra cap space... which at best would probably be used for the same purpose except not for the 2014 draft making it worse imo (taking a bad contract along with a 1st).

    Sorry, I missed Thabeet. You are right.

    As for trade, I'd rather stick with just Charlotte.

    As for Gordon, I think they are expecting big things from Lamb.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Sorry, I missed Thabeet. You are right.

    As for trade, I'd rather stick with just Charlotte.

    As for Gordon, I think they are expecting big things from Lamb.
    Don't have any problem with the Charlotte deal either tbh, just wouldn't be opposed to snagging another pick from OKC if possible. Could be used in a package deal to move up on draft night if need be.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Don't have any problem with the Charlotte deal either tbh, just wouldn't be opposed to snagging another pick from OKC if possible. Could be used in a package deal to move up on draft night if need be.
    If this draft is as loaded at the top (btw, not supposed to be so strong after the top 6 or so) as predicted, nobody that has a top 5 pick is going to take a 16th and a 29th for it.

    On a side note, I read that Jabari Parker is already talking about staying in college for a 2nd year. By the time the draft rolls around, it could look quite different that the mocks people are toying around with now.

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  17. #156
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    If this draft is as loaded at the top (btw, not supposed to be so strong after the top 6 or so) as predicted, nobody that has a top 5 pick is going to take a 16th and a 29th for it.

    On a side note, I read that Jabari Parker is already talking about staying in college for a 2nd year. By the time the draft rolls around, it could look quite different that the mocks people are toying around with now.
    I didn't say move up to the top 5..... I said "move up". Say we have 5th, 15th and 29th, and we think a team at 14 is gonna take our guy at 15. We could deal 15+29 to move up to 13 and get our guy.

    And I agree with your second point, it is part of the problem with tanking. It's unpredictable, unreliable and heavily based on chance.

  18. #157
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    Default I think this would be a sign of tanking....

    Important things to remember about each team:

    Toronto: they are blowing it up in this scenario. Don't really want to talk about if they are or not - that has been beat to death. Here we are assuming they are blowing it up.

    Charlotte: laughingstock of league for few years. Desperate to get out of the cellar. I read somewhere recently a writer talking about Charlotte being a great place and as soon as they start winning they will be an attractive place for NBA players. Who knows. Bottom line is I think the treadmill and a couple of playoff games revenue looks appealing to MJ, Cho, and Co. after striking out on the lottery the last few seasons (by that I mean decent but not great players).

    Houston: I don't buy the "want to keep Lin and Asik" comments. Those two guys only count as $16.7M cap hit next year but their actual salary combined will be about $30-32M. Also, Lin played just 4 games and 32, 20, 18, and 13 games while missing 2 games (can't remember how bad the chest bruise was) and he was dog poop. Asik has made it clear he is not happy as a reserve. After getting off the bench from Chicago to now going back, he is not happy. More to come from Houston in the "Why" section.



    The trade:


    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine/?tradeId=n8cezja

    *Richardson released to create roster space for +1 player coming back to TO
    **Augustine or Buycks sent to Charlotte (December 15th)


    Toronto: Lin, Sessions, Biyombo, Haywood, Jones/Motiejunas, Adrien, Houston 2015/2017 pick, from Charlotte Pistons top8 protected and Portland top 12 protected.

    Houston: Gordon, Novak, Gray, Kemba

    Charlotte: Gay, Asik, Lowry, $3M from Toronto, $3M from Houston


    Why?

    Houston: with a core already set of Harden/Howard/Parsons they now add a future PG in Kemba. Novak was made to play with Howard. Gordon strengthens weak bench. Gray is replacement back up C.

    Key issue here is Parsons and Kemba stay on rookie deal for one more year. This deal gives them about (assumption cap of $60M) $12-13M in cap space. They can hit free agency one last time before being limited to exceptions.

    As mentioned above Houston also avoids paying $30+M to Asik and Lin despite just having a $16.7M cap hit.


    Charlotte:

    Lowry/Buycks-Augustine/Pargo
    Henderson/Taylor
    Gay/MKG
    Jefferson/McBob
    Asik/Zeller

    I think that is an eastern conference playoff team - although they need more shooting. Never going to go deep but it is a step up from where they are now AND they kept #2 pick in 2012 and #4 in 2013.


    Toronto: obviously they are tanking here. They just got 4 first round draft picks to give them possibly 3 in 2014, 2 in 2015, 2 in 2016, and 2 in 2017.

    Lin gives them PG for next year.
    Sessions is cap filler and expiring.
    Biyombo has potential as long term back up C.
    Haywood is cost of doing business. Likely waived/bought out. Option for 2015/16 obviously not picked up.
    Jones/Motiejunas depends on which Houston would like. Personally I see potential in both - preference to Jones.
    Adrien is cap filler.

    TL has talked about the deep pockets of MLSE/Bell/Rogers. Here is chance to put money where mouth is. Lin only counts as $8.375M on books but will be paid over $15M. Great way to get a couple of draft picks in process.

    Raptors would have about $17M in cap space in summer of 2014.
    For 2015-16 they would have JV, Ross, DD, Jones-Motiejunas, 2014 pick, 2014 pick, 2015 pick, 2015 pick and a shit load of cap space (about $30M in committed salaries). Yes, free agency is now an option in the summer of 2015 right before JV's extension.




    This is/was a waste of time on my part but that would be a good sign of tanking.... lol
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  19. #158
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    Matt52's trade doesn't work because we can't trade Steve Novak in conjunction with other players presently.

    A revision:

    TORONTO GETS: Jeremy Lin, Bismack Biyombo, Ramon Sessions, Jeff Adrien, Houston's 2015/17, the Detroit/Portland protected picks from Charlotte
    HOUSTON GETS: Kemba Walker, Terrence Ross, Ben Gordon, Brendan Haywood, draft rights to Tomislav Zubcic
    CHARLOTTE GETS: Rudy Gay, Kyle Lowry, Omer Asik, Terrence Jones, money from Houston and/or Toronto

    That's a little more balanced in favour of Houston; they'd rather get young Terrence Ross than Steve Novak, because Houston has healthy perimeter shooting already and Ross has a lot more potential upside for them than Novak does.

  20. #159
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    The Novak restriction will be gone in a month, btw. But the Ross idea makes sense too.

    I like both of these trades. They look fair and reasonable.

    Btw, Houston is in position to be a major free agency force in 2015, which should be a very impressive free agency. Parsons' cap hit is miniscule, so they could target Love/Aldridge/Rondo/Millsap etc that summer.
    So while this deal opens up their cap space for 2014, I don't know if they wouldn't just prefer to wait till 2015. Morey's plan might be to retain their flexibility for 2015 while at the same time collect assets / picks and try to acquire the third star via trade.
    That said, I do agree that keeping Asik makes no sense, if a good deal is available.
    Last edited by BobLoblaw; Sat Aug 10th, 2013 at 02:14 AM.

  21. #160
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Matt52's trade doesn't work because we can't trade Steve Novak in conjunction with other players presently.

    A revision:

    TORONTO GETS: Jeremy Lin, Bismack Biyombo, Ramon Sessions, Jeff Adrien, Houston's 2015/17, the Detroit/Portland protected picks from Charlotte
    HOUSTON GETS: Kemba Walker, Terrence Ross, Ben Gordon, Brendan Haywood, draft rights to Tomislav Zubcic
    CHARLOTTE GETS: Rudy Gay, Kyle Lowry, Omer Asik, Terrence Jones, money from Houston and/or Toronto

    That's a little more balanced in favour of Houston; they'd rather get young Terrence Ross than Steve Novak, because Houston has healthy perimeter shooting already and Ross has a lot more potential upside for them than Novak does.
    And buycks/Augustine can't be traes until December 15 from my original trade.

    I put that in post so made the assumption Novak being unable to be traded until September 10th would be a non issue.

    Your trade leaves Charlotte with no backup PG besides Pargo and Charlotte is not sending out enough money to make trade work under CBA.

    Also Houston in in win now mode. Not sure they want a project in Ross especially in Harden's position. Novak is Mr. Spacing for Harden and Howard. Off the bench right now they have Garcia, Williams, and Casspi none of which are a certainty.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Aug 10th, 2013 at 05:33 AM.

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