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Thread: Signs Of Tanking?

  1. #221
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Dude, if you haven't noticed yet, you're on a never ending merry-go-round. A part of me has the urge to jump in and level the competition field just a bit, but you're already making most, if not all, of the same points I'd make. The thing is, none of it has an impact on tank nation, as they'll always come back to 20/20 hindsight "well that was simply bad management". Hey, I understand if you're filling a void in the dog days of summer, but be aware that you'll convince nobody, and you'll keep being circled around to the same recycled arguments, only slightly re-worded, over and over.
    I'm bored at work lol, this is more entertaining than staring at spreadsheets

  2. #222
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I'm bored at work lol, this is more entertaining than staring at spreadsheets
    lol, understood.

  3. #223
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Dude, if you haven't noticed yet, you're on a never ending merry-go-round. A part of me has the urge to jump in and level the competition field just a bit, but you're already making most, if not all, of the same points I'd make. The thing is, none of it has an impact on tank nation, as they'll always come back to 20/20 hindsight "well that was simply bad management". Hey, I understand if you're filling a void in the dog days of summer, but be aware that you'll convince nobody, and you'll keep being circled around to the same recycled arguments, only slightly re-worded, over and over.
    Seriously!

    Sounds like the same thing I typed yesterday!

    The circle continues!

    *friendly sarcasm p00ka*
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  4. #224
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    Didn't some of you come to an agreement a week or two ago that if Ujiri can sell pieces at a good price, tanking is ok? Now you are all arguing the same things again, the same people.

    In the end, this draft is near certain to be ridiculous at the top. If Ujiri can position the team for a short 1 year tank, then we are talking about an entirely different scenario than the Bobcats or Kings or some other oompa loompa management projects. But that requires getting good assets back and unclogging the cap space.

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  6. #225
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Didn't some of you come to an agreement a week or two ago that if Ujiri can sell pieces at a good price, tanking is ok? Now you are all arguing the same things again, the same people.

    In the end, this draft is near certain to be ridiculous at the top. If Ujiri can position the team for a short 1 year tank, then we are talking about an entirely different scenario than the Bobcats or Kings or some other oompa loompa management projects. But that requires getting good assets back and unclogging the cap space.
    Exactly.

    No one is advocating selling Lowry or Gay or DeRozan for pennies on the dollar.

    And no team I am aware of started a tank with JV-calibre 2nd year player already on the team. JV is the type of player teams are praying to get in the lottery. The Raptors already have him which significantly increases odds of getting another all-star talent.

    If the last 10 years has had roughly 2 all star talents in top 5, you have a 40% chance to get one in any year. Hoping to get 2 takes you to 16% chance. Well, the Raptors already have 1. Probably a little simplistic but I would take 40% over a long run on the treadmill. If things don't work out then at the very least you can explore other options like trades with picks/prospects/cap space without having burdensome contracts.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  7. #226
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    This is false, there are way more bad picks than good picks. I can't remember where I posted it but there's something like an average of 2 stars in every draft. If you're in the top 5 and fail to get one while another team does, it's gonna be considered a bad pick.
    First, I said "at least", meaning equal or more, which is what you're saying. How is what I said false, if you're agreeing with me??

    Second, I never said "star". I said "good" pick, as in a good player relative to the position they're drafted in. You can still make a "good" pick with the #21 selection, without having "good" measured against the same expectations of what a "good" #3 pick would have placed on them.

  8. #227
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Seriously!

    Sounds like the same thing I typed yesterday!

    The circle continues!

    *friendly sarcasm p00ka*
    lol,,, yeah, even the nuttiest of us (talking of myself) has the light flash on now and then.

  9. #228
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Exactly.

    No one is advocating selling Lowry or Gay or DeRozan for pennies on the dollar.

    And no team I am aware of started a tank with JV-calibre 2nd year player already on the team. JV is the type of player teams are praying to get in the lottery. The Raptors already have him which significantly increases odds of getting another all-star talent.

    If the last 10 years has had roughly 2 all star talents in top 5, you have a 40% chance to get one in any year. Hoping to get 2 takes you to 16% chance. Well, the Raptors already have 1. Probably a little simplistic but I would take 40% over a long run on the treadmill. If things don't work out then at the very least you can explore other options like trades with picks/prospects/cap space without having burdensome contracts.
    K aside from everything else you said could you please explain to me how having Jonas increases our chances of getting another star?

  10. #229
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    This is false, there are way more bad picks than good picks. I can't remember where I posted it but there's something like an average of 2 stars in every draft. If you're in the top 5 and fail to get one while another team does, it's gonna be considered a bad pick.
    Not if those 2 stars are picked before you get a chance to. Oden over Durant as #1 was a bad pick by Portland. The teams that picked #3-5 that year didn't make "bad" picks because they didn't choose Durant, as they never had the chance... I don't follow the logic. There's also a difference between a good/bad pick at the time of the draft and a good/back pick many years later, with the benefit of hindsight.

  11. #230
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Not if those 2 stars are picked before you get a chance to. Oden over Durant as #1 was a bad pick by Portland. The teams that picked #3-5 that year didn't make "bad" picks because they didn't choose Durant, as they never had the chance... I don't follow the logic. There's also a difference between a good/bad pick at the time of the draft and a good/back pick many years later, with the benefit of hindsight.
    That's what I meant but I didn't say it right, my mistake.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    K aside from everything else you said could you please explain to me how having Jonas increases our chances of getting another star?
    The explanation is given in everything else I said - specifically the paragraph directly after.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  13. #232
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The explanation is given in everything else I said - specifically the paragraph directly after.
    No it isn't.

    You explained how having Jonas makes it easier to get two all-star talents since we already have one (only need to get one more).

    But that does not explain how getting Jonas increases the odds of getting another all-star talent.

  14. #233
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    No it isn't.

    You explained how having Jonas makes it easier to get two all-star talents since we already have one (only need to get one more).

    But that does not explain how getting Jonas increases the odds of getting another all-star talent.
    Good players like playing with good players. Just ask LeBron
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  15. #234
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    Matt let me give you an analogy to help illustrate how incorrect what you said is.

    In the part I bolded you said

    JV is the type of player teams are praying to get in the lottery. The Raptors already have him which significantly increases odds of getting another all-star talent.
    That is like flipping a coin and getting heads, and then saying my chance of getting another heads has increased. No it hasn't. Your chance of getting TWO heads has gone up because you only had 1, but your chance of getting a heads on the next toss is exactly the same.

  16. #235
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    What he meant is that having Jonas increases odds of a successful rebuilding project, i.e. ending up with two foundational players.

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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    What he meant is that having Jonas increases odds of a successful rebuilding project, i.e. ending up with two foundational players.
    I think we can both agree that's not even close to the same thing as:

    The Raptors already have him which significantly increases odds of getting another all-star talent.

  18. #237
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Spurs: David Robinson 76 games in the 1996-97 season (spurs won 56 games the year before AND added Nique).
    I've said this before and will say it again: the Spurs tanked hard in 1996-97 once it was clear Robinson was going to miss most of the season. Nique was their best player and he was 36 at the time and about half a prime 'Nique - still good, but hardly the worldbeating-level player he has been.

  19. #238
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I think we can both agree that's not even close to the same thing as:
    But it's clearly what he meant, nonetheless. I guess underline the word "another". You can't get "another" without getting the first one.

  20. #239
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    I've said this before and will say it again: the Spurs tanked hard in 1996-97 once it was clear Robinson was going to miss most of the season. Nique was their best player and he was 36 at the time and about half a prime 'Nique - still good, but hardly the worldbeating-level player he has been.
    So tell us again, how did they tank? They obtained "Nique, hardly a tank move, and except for missing a couple of weeks due to injury, played him big minutes for very decent production. They also lost their 2nd best player in recent years (Sam Elliot,), due to injury, half way through the season, who they had been riding pretty hard. What steps do you say they took to "tank hard"?

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    So tell us again, how did they tank? They obtained "Nique, hardly a tank move, and except for missing a couple of weeks due to injury, played him big minutes for very decent production. They also lost their 2nd best player in recent years (Sam Elliot,), due to injury, half way through the season, who they had been riding pretty hard. What steps do you say they took to "tank hard"?
    Lmao I still think it's hilarious that people say the Spurs tanked for Duncan.

    No they did not, this is not up for debate and there's no room for discussion.

    They were 59-23 the year before: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/1996.html and finished FIRST in the Western Conference

    With a starting 5 of:
    Avery Johnson (13ppg, 10apg)
    Vinny Del negro (14.5ppg)
    Sean Elliot (20ppg, 5rpg)
    Charles Smith (10ppg, 6rpg)
    David Robinson (25ppg, 12rpg)

    That offseason (the offseason before the 96-97 season at the end of which they drafted TD), they tried to bolster their core even more. They brought back all 5 starters, while adding Vernon Maxwell (solid scorer off the bench at 13ppg) and Dominique Wilkins who despite being 37 had averaged 18ppg in 94-95 before missing 95-96 due to injury. They were set to try and make a deeper playoff run after losing to Utah, but The Admiral got injured in the preseason, and Sean Elliot missed over half the season due to injury. So basically their top two players were out.

    Despite this, they did not trade A SINGLE key player, like you would expect a tanking team to do. Del Negro, Nique and Avery all played the entire season.

    Their lack of depth and go-to scoring as a result of losing their two best players (this would be equivalent to the Thunder losing Durant and Westbrook last year and asking KMart and Ibaka to carry the load), resulted in them winning just 20 games and firing their coach Bob Hill after 18 games (why would they do this if they were tanking) to hire Pop.

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