Page 16 of 20 FirstFirst ... 6 14 15 16 17 18 ... LastLast
Results 301 to 320 of 398

Thread: Signs Of Tanking?

  1. #301
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    There seems to be this notion that Ujiri is waiting to "evaluate" the team before making a trade. That is just rhetoric lol, I'm not sure how people fail to see this.

    He's not a fool, he knows how good our players are. He's not waiting to see how good they are, he's waiting for better trades to become available, because right now there clearly aren't any to his liking or he would've made one.

  2. Like jimmie, mcHAPPY liked this post
  3. #302
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,219
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I think a lot of tankers want to have their cake and eat it too.

    They want to get a ton of assets back for Gay and Lowry, but they also want to tank immediately. Riddle me this: why would any team trade significant assets for Gay/Lowry when they're not even sure how their current roster is going to perform or what its ceiling is?

    There's a reason most trades like this happen during the trade deadline and it's not because GMs spend the first 50 games twiddling their thumbs.
    Well of course people are advocating that the Raptors get back as many assets as possible. To not do so would be shooting yourself in the foot.

    But nowhere have I read from the pro-rebuild group that the Raptors should be holding out for some type of godfather offer. It's too early in the process to cave and accept an offer of only Charlie V/Stuckey, but if Dumars were to throw in a couple picks or a player like KCP then I think you have to start thinking a lot harder about it.

    I don't think that Ujiri is turning down a bunch of really good offers right now. No one ever said that. I would admit that the market for Lowry, Gay, etc. is pretty stagnant right now. I think it speaks to the value of some of our roster around the league, which naturally leads to the question of why you are so adamant about building around players that no other team seemingly want.

    If Ujiri has to wait until the season has already begun before the offers pick up, so be it. It's not the ideal scenario obviously, but if that's what the market dictates then there's really not much of a choice.

    As long as we're not putting our head down and continuing on with this mediocre ensemble of mismatched talent for the next 3-4 years... I'll be satisfied.

  4. #303
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Well of course people are advocating that the Raptors get back as many assets as possible. To not do so would be shooting yourself in the foot.

    But nowhere have I read from the pro-rebuild group that the Raptors should be holding out for some type of godfather offer. It's too early in the process to cave and accept an offer of only Charlie V/Stuckey, but if Dumars were to throw in a couple picks or a player like KCP then I think you have to start thinking a lot harder about it.

    I don't think that Ujiri is turning down a bunch of really good offers right now. No one ever said that. I would admit that the market for Lowry, Gay, etc. is pretty stagnant right now. I think it speaks to the value of some of our roster around the league, which naturally leads to the question of why you are so adamant about building around players that no other team seemingly want.

    If Ujiri has to wait until the season has already begun before the offers pick up, so be it. It's not the ideal scenario obviously, but if that's what the market dictates then there's really not much of a choice.

    As long as we're not putting our head down and continuing on with this mediocre ensemble of mismatched talent for the next 3-4 years... I'll be satisfied.
    Yes this is my point, but GMs usually aren't ready to make these kind of deals until the trade deadline... at which point they might not make sense for us depending on our record.

  5. #304
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,608
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Yes this is my point, but GMs usually aren't ready to make these kind of deals until the trade deadline... at which point they might not make sense for us depending on our record.
    Your point is essentially the same thing many of the pro-tankers are making, when they refer to the 1st half of the season as an evaluation period. It's not only a time for MU/DC to evaluate the Raptors, but for other teams to evaluate their own teams and Raptors players as potential trade targets. I've said from the time TL/MU were hired, that I expected the most significant moves to [potentially] be made leading up to the trade deadline, not this offseason.

    For instance, if Detroit really is interested in Gay, I expect their offer to improve substantially between now and the trade deadline; especailly if Gay's play improves with better team chemistry and improved vision, and other teams enter the Gay-sweepstakes.

    Depending on what happens throughout the first half of the season, I think MU will determine whether he wants to rebuild (aka 2nd half tank) or retool. Even if the team is performing well above expectations, I still don't believe that the status quo will be maintained, given the financial situation the team is in. Even if the Raps are sitting in the #6 spot, MU is going to have to decide whether that spot is this roster's jumping-off point or ceiling. When the team is nearly a luxury tax team even before a Lowry extension, simply being a low playoff team (if that is the projected ceiling) is not going to be enough for the current core roster to remain intact.

    I am excited for the 1st half of this season, both to see the development of the team's current players and to see what move(s) MU is able to make to improve this team for the long-term.

  6. #305
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    So basically you understood what he meant, but were nitpicking that he typed "another" instead of "a second"?

    I think you're just a little too eager for a pissing match with Matt52.

    It was pretty simple, as it was all in response to a series of messages you had posted. We want 2. We got 1. Our chances of ending up with 2 are better than teams that don't have 1 yet.


    I'd suggest - and not just to you - that we all give our fellow posters the benefit of the doubt and read what they typed and take a moment to think about what they really meant, rather than use every little opportunity to show them up.
    No I didn't understand what he "meant" originally, I understood it after other posters clarified it. That sentence and what he meant are two completely different things.

  7. #306
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,638
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    No I didn't understand what he "meant" originally, I understood it after other posters clarified it. That sentence and what he meant are two completely different things.
    Oh for the love of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Allah, and all that is pure, sacred, and holy:

    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  8. Like LBF liked this post
  9. #307
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I am not anti-tank or pro-tank. I would trade anyone on the team in a second if I was getting more value in return.

    The only thing I have an issue with is selling low on guys or picks to attempt to achieve a goal. Whether that goal is a high pick or a playoff berth.

    For instance. Say we get to the trade deadline and only Detroit really has interest in Gay. BUT, Smith at 3 with Monroe at 4 isn't working out too poorly, so they're willing to live with it. As a result, they are not willing to add to their offer of Stuckey+Villanueva for Gay?

    Then as a pro-tanker what do you do?

  10. #308
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,638
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I am not anti-tank or pro-tank. I would trade anyone on the team in a second if I was getting more value in return.

    The only thing I have an issue with is selling low on guys or picks to attempt to achieve a goal. Whether that goal is a high pick or a playoff berth.

    For instance. Say we get to the trade deadline and only Detroit really has interest in Gay. BUT, Smith at 3 with Monroe at 4 isn't working out too poorly, so they're willing to live with it. As a result, they are not willing to add to their offer of Stuckey+Villanueva for Gay?

    Then as a pro-tanker what do you do?
    Call Charlotte?
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  11. #309
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Call Charlotte?
    I said "only" Detroit.

  12. #310
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I am not anti-tank or pro-tank. I would trade anyone on the team in a second if I was getting more value in return.

    The only thing I have an issue with is selling low on guys or picks to attempt to achieve a goal. Whether that goal is a high pick or a playoff berth.

    For instance. Say we get to the trade deadline and only Detroit really has interest in Gay. BUT, Smith at 3 with Monroe at 4 isn't working out too poorly, so they're willing to live with it. As a result, they are not willing to add to their offer of Stuckey+Villanueva for Gay?

    Then as a pro-tanker what do you do?
    Would Detroit even want Gay then? They would have a starting 3 and 4 that work together well.. so why screw that up by bringing in another 3 that would need to start too?

  13. #311
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Would Detroit even want Gay then? They would have a starting 3 and 4 that work together well.. so why screw that up by bringing in another 3 that would need to start too?
    Jesus...

    Ok more realistic scenario:

    Charlotte is the only team that wants Rudy Gay, MKG has been playing well but is still raw and they would like to make a playoff push. That being said, they are not willing to move MKG or the Detroit pick (they can't trade theirs because Chicago has it protected).

    They offer us Sessions, Ben Gordon and the Blazers top-12 protected pick for Gay. What do we do?

  14. #312
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,219
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Jesus...

    Ok more realistic scenario:

    Charlotte is the only team that wants Rudy Gay, MKG has been playing well but is still raw and they would like to make a playoff push. That being said, they are not willing to move MKG or the Detroit pick (they can't trade theirs because Chicago has it protected).

    They offer us Sessions, Ben Gordon and the Blazers top-12 protected pick for Gay. What do we do?
    You take the deal?

  15. #313
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    You take the deal?
    Really?

    So you take a top-12 protected pick (that we will likely lose since the Blazers most likely won't be in the playoffs) and two expirings for Gay just to try and tank? This is the exact attitude I'm talking about...

  16. #314
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    1,199
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I am not anti-tank or pro-tank. I would trade anyone on the team in a second if I was getting more value in return.

    The only thing I have an issue with is selling low on guys or picks to attempt to achieve a goal. Whether that goal is a high pick or a playoff berth.

    For instance. Say we get to the trade deadline and only Detroit really has interest in Gay. BUT, Smith at 3 with Monroe at 4 isn't working out too poorly, so they're willing to live with it. As a result, they are not willing to add to their offer of Stuckey+Villanueva for Gay?

    Then as a pro-tanker what do you do?
    I don't know what you do as a "pro-tanker", but a sensible asset manager would evaluate all options. Gay isn't owned for life. If (A) the Raptors record isn't great, and (B) they feel that Gay intends to opt out and they don't think they can/will re-sign him, then even a crappy offer can make sense. If A or B isn't true, then it might make sense to wait.

    The end goal is to go from assets to better assets and where possible, get rid of assets before they go bad. Same as any other business. Draft is just one of tools to get these better assets. Trades are another tool. Free agency is another tool. A GM can't just look at trades in a vacuum and say "derp derp I'm keeping Gay no matter what, unless I get a star back", that would be horrific asset management. It's all part of a bigger picture and all situational.

    In other words, yes, it's possible that a subpar trade is a good asset management move. Was amnestying Luis Scola a good move in a vacuum? Hell no, the Rockets lost a good player. Was it a good asset management move? Hell yes.

    Either way, we'll see when we get there. For now, I doubt that will be the best offer available. Who knows, given Ujiri's secrecy, he might have better offers on the table already, and we wouldn't know.
    Last edited by BobLoblaw; Thu Aug 15th, 2013 at 12:19 PM.

  17. Like Fully, jimmie liked this post
  18. #315
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,219
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Really?

    So you take a top-12 protected pick (that we will likely lose since the Blazers most likely won't be in the playoffs) and two expirings for Gay just to try and tank? This is the exact attitude I'm talking about...
    You don't "lose" the pick if it falls within 1-12. It would carry over to the next season when it has the same protections (1-12). The following year it becomes completely unprotected. If you think there's a good chance that the Blazers finish outside of the playoffs the next two years (which is entirely possible), it's actually a sneaky good asset to acquire as all the protections come off in 2016.

    The expiring contracts on their face are 'throw-ins' in the context of the deal, but salary cap flexibility is valuable and something that the Raptors sorely need. Neither Sessions nor Gordon would be in the plans once their contract expires but the options and flexibility that their expiring deals would provide Ujiri in subsequent years holds value beyond what type of players they are.

    So you've acquired close to $20 million in expiring money, a first round draft pick that has the potential to be incredibly valuable depending on how things go in Portland over the next few seasons, and have improved your chances of drafting highly with your own pick in 2014 by decreasing the talent level on the team in the short term. That's a win if rebuilding is the plan. Especially when it's for a player that you yourself are convinced is opting out in 2014 (which could end up giving you absolutely 0 in return if he decides to go elsewhere).
    Last edited by Fully; Thu Aug 15th, 2013 at 12:29 PM.

  19. #316
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    You don't "lose" the pick if it falls within 1-12. It would carry over to the next season when it has the same protections (1-12). The following year it becomes completely unprotected. If you think there's a good chance that the Blazers finish outside of the playoffs the next two years (which is entirely possible), it's actually a sneaky good asset to acquire as all the protections come off in 2016.

    The expiring contracts on their face are 'throw-ins' in the context of the deal, but salary cap flexibility is valuable and something that the Raptors sorely need.

    So you've acquired close to $20 million in expiring money, a first round draft pick that has the potential to be incredibly valuable depending on how things go in Portland over the next few seasons, and have improved your chances of drafting highly with your own pick in 2014. That's a win.
    Ok sounds like a good deal let's do it.

  20. #317
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,638
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    You don't "lose" the pick if it falls within 1-12. It would carry over to the next season when it has the same protections (1-12). The following year it becomes completely unprotected. If you think there's a good chance that the Blazers finish outside of the playoffs the next two years (which is entirely possible), it's actually a sneaky good asset to acquire as all the protections come off in 2016.

    The expiring contracts on their face are 'throw-ins' in the context of the deal, but salary cap flexibility is valuable and something that the Raptors sorely need. Neither Sessions nor Gordon would be in the plans once their contract expires but the options and flexibility that their expiring deals would provide Ujiri in subsequent years holds value beyond what type of players they are.

    So you've acquired close to $20 million in expiring money, a first round draft pick that has the potential to be incredibly valuable depending on how things go in Portland over the next few seasons, and have improved your chances of drafting highly with your own pick in 2014 by decreasing the talent level on the team in the short term. That's a win if rebuilding is the plan. Especially when it's for a player that you are convinced is opting out in 2014.
    Both Detroit and Portland picks are unprotected in 2016.

    I think toronto would have some leverage over Charlotte as well. We know Detroit has interest in Gay. If Detroit gets Gay that pick for charlotte might not be appealing.

    I'm totally talking out of my ass here. I just don't expect Smith to excel at SF.

  21. #318
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,016
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I think what happens is you put your perceptions of what tankers are thinking and create a story based on that.

    I don't think tankers are expecting a 'ton' of assets back for Gay and Lowry. If Gay + Lowry were worth a ton, why would the team need to tank in the first place?? What they are expecting though is something more than 2 players who are only worth their expiring contracts (ie. CV and Stuckey).

    What they'd like to see is a trade that leads to 'losing now' but 'winning in the future'. eg. something like CV + Stuckey + picks for Gay.

    But riddle me this: if teams aren't willing to trade for Gay and Lowry, because they believe there is a legitimate chance their team may be better off without adding them, and therefore they aren't very valuable, why would one expect this team to be good with them? Just like you claim 'tankers' can't have their cake and eat it to, anti-tankers can't either.

    Either Gay and Lowry are good, and therefore valuable. Or they aren't good and therefore not valuable. Or they are somewhere in between both of those.

    Which is it?

    You are quickly becoming a stronghold of narratives and framing arguments. Yeah its great that they fit your belief system, unfortuantely they hardly make good arguments.
    WOW, talk about creating narratives and framing arguments!

    1. Tank nation keeps talking about getting valuable prospects and valuable picks as if they can be simply cherry picked, yet when challenged to present something that's viable and makes sense for both teams, come up with VERY FEW remote possibilities, attached to huge assumptions like Charlotte "going all in". All in for what? They may want to shoot for playoffs, but nobody in their right mind, here or there, could fathom them being "contenders" simply by getting what would be a very unhappy Rudy. What else have you got?

    2. This valuable or not valuable thing is not near as simplistic as you present (to support your narrative). In the NBA, players hold different values to different teams, as is often cited by tank supporters themselves, when bringing up "fit". The players you bring up are good players. To say otherwise is silliness, but what other teams have to evaluate is if they fit with their team and their own plans moving forward. It's not black/white, bad/good.

  22. Like Xixak liked this post
  23. #319
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,638
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    WOW, talk about creating narratives and framing arguments!

    1. Tank nation keeps talking about getting valuable prospects and valuable picks as if they can be simply cherry picked, yet when challenged to present something that's viable and makes sense for both teams, come up with VERY FEW remote possibilities, attached to huge assumptions like Charlotte "going all in". All in for what? They may want to shoot for playoffs, but nobody in their right mind, here or there, could fathom them being "contenders" simply by getting what would be a very unhappy Rudy. What else have you got?

    2. This valuable or not valuable thing is not near as simplistic as you present (to support your narrative). In the NBA, players hold different values to different teams, as is often cited by tank supporters themselves, when bringing up "fit". The players you bring up are good players. To say otherwise is silliness, but what other teams have to evaluate is if they fit with their team and their own plans moving forward. It's not black/white, bad/good.
    Why would Rudy be unhappy in Charlotte?

    I think Rudy on Charlotte is a better team than the Raptors.

  24. #320
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,219
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Why would Rudy be unhappy in Charlotte?

    I think Rudy on Charlotte is a better team than the Raptors.
    It's a created narrative, and yes, the irony hurts.

Page 16 of 20 FirstFirst ... 6 14 15 16 17 18 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •