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Thread: Signs Of Tanking?

  1. #381
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-am-mor...tions-to-watch


    It would not be the first time to see a player drop because expectations of people are not met despite a terrific performance.

    Durant had 26ppg/11reb on 47/40/81 shooting and people still doubted him and he went #2.
    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I don't think it's so much that people doubted him.

    Probably a combination of the Blazers having a dynamic wing already, and the perception that a dominant center (Oden potentially at the time) > a wing player.
    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I still don't see how he even had a "drop" in the draft like you said. Oden was pretty much a lock to go #1.
    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I didn't say KD dropped.

    Two different ideas in two different paragraphs.
    WOW, like WOW. Seriously? You're saying the second wasn't a qualifier for the first, but was just some random other thought that you tossed in the air? No wonder Xixak got banned for going over the edge.

  2. #382
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    WOW, like WOW. Seriously? You're saying the second wasn't a qualifier for the first, but was just some random other thought that you tossed in the air? No wonder Xixak got banned for going over the edge.
    You've left out the initial message that started all this, which provides the proper frame of reference, unfortunately.

    The talk in the article was all about the Wiggins hype causing extreme, unfair expectations to be placed on him by media and fans, so that no matter how well he actually performs there's likely going to be at least a small sense of disappointment. Durant was simply used as a comparison, where a guy with otherwise fantastic stats wasn't viewed as a consensus #1 pick, because the hype-induced expectations were not met, causing people to cast a greater emphasis on the negatives (or even create doubt out of thin air).

    Without the media hype machine, Wiggins should be able to go about his business, get picked 1st overall and live happily ever after - just like Durant should have. The hype blew expectations out of control, leading to disappointment, leading to a "drop" from what should have been the consensus #1 overall pick position. It happened to Durant and it could happen to Wiggins, if people don't temper their expectations.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 at 04:13 PM.

  3. #383
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    WOW, like WOW. Seriously? You're saying the second wasn't a qualifier for the first, but was just some random other thought that you tossed in the air? No wonder Xixak got banned for going over the edge.
    Keep kicking the nest p00ka. Not this time but eventually someone will be sure to bite.

  4. #384
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    You've left out the initial message that started all this, which provides the proper frame of reference, unfortunately.

    The talk in the article was all about the Wiggins hype causing extreme, unfair expectations to be placed him by media and fans, so that no matter how well he actually performs there's likely going to be at least a small sense of disappointment. Durant was simply used as a comparison, where a guy with otherwise fantastic stats wasn't viewed as a consensus #1 pick, because the hype-induced expectations were not met, causing people to cast a greater emphasis on the negatives (or even create doubt out of seemingly thin air).

    Without the media hype machine, Wiggins should be able to go about his business, get picked 1st overall and live happily ever after - just like Durant should have. The hype blew expectations out of control, leading to disappointment, leading to a "drop" from what should have been the consensus #1 overall pick position. It happened to Durant and it could happen to Wiggins, if people don't temper their expectations.
    I'm not sure this is right. First of all, Oden had more hype coming out of high school, was ranked higher as a prospect (by Rivals: http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/footbal...ings/rank-1428), and performed worse than Durant did in college. So if anything, that statement would apply to him not KD.

    Secondly, the things KD were being knocked for weren't really created "out of thin air". He had a very slight frame (still does), and tested as one of the least athletic players in the class at the combine (26" standing vert, 0 bench press, mediocre 3/4 sprint and lane agility). There was some substance to the criticism (much like there is and will be for Wiggins).

  5. #385
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Secondly, the things KD were being knocked for weren't really created "out of thin air". He had a very slight frame (still does), and tested as one of the least athletic players in the class at the combine (26" standing vert, 0 bench press, mediocre 3/4 sprint and lane agility). There was some substance to the criticism (much like there is and will be for Wiggins).
    Fair enough but, if not for the hyped-up exectations, those concerns/criticisms should have paled in comparison to the positives and the stats he produced. I think that's all the article was talking about, showing concern over the growing hype for Wiggins, including comparisons to LBJ, etc...

    I think it's a little like 1st overall picks automatically having unfair expectations placed upon them, simply because of their draft position. Whether we're talking about a draft pick or a player just entering the NCAA, the article is just reminding media/fans to fairly evaluate the player for who/what he is, rather than against some unattainable hype-driven expectations.

  6. #386
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    You've left out the initial message that started all this, which provides the proper frame of reference, unfortunately.

    The talk in the article was all about the Wiggins hype causing extreme, unfair expectations to be placed on him by media and fans, so that no matter how well he actually performs there's likely going to be at least a small sense of disappointment. Durant was simply used as a comparison, where a guy with otherwise fantastic stats wasn't viewed as a consensus #1 pick, because the hype-induced expectations were not met, causing people to cast a greater emphasis on the negatives (or even create doubt out of thin air).

    Without the media hype machine, Wiggins should be able to go about his business, get picked 1st overall and live happily ever after - just like Durant should have. The hype blew expectations out of control, leading to disappointment, leading to a "drop" from what should have been the consensus #1 overall pick position. It happened to Durant and it could happen to Wiggins, if people don't temper their expectations.
    So, in other words:

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    It would not be the first time to see a player drop because expectations of people are not met despite a terrific performance.
    What did I miss? I'm confused.

  7. #387
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Keep kicking the nest p00ka. Not this time but eventually someone will be sure to bite.
    I'm not sure what you mean (diverting the conversation?), but I wasn't trying to be a jackass, man. It seemed very logical that the second statement was a qualifier/example of the first statement, as Xixak saw as well. If not, what was it's purpose?

  8. #388
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    I still don't fully understand this notion that Durant "dropped". Oden was consistently ranked as a better prospect.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/footbal...ings/rank-1428 ----> Rivals Oden #1
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Oden ----> Oden was also the prep player of the year

  9. #389
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I still don't fully understand this notion that Durant "dropped". Oden was consistently ranked as a better prospect.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/footbal...ings/rank-1428 ----> Rivals Oden #1
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Oden ----> Oden was also the prep player of the year
    For me, the whole notion of a hype/unfair expectations caused drop is evident in Oden still being ranked #1, despite the season Durant had and the fact the league was moving away from traditional play and becoming a wing-dominated league. It's not just a "drop" at the draft (ie: teams let the player drop, relative to pre-draft rankings) but, possibly even more importantly, a drop ahead of the draft by the media/experts. The media/experts release their rankings and analyze each player to death, to the point that fans and possibly even GMs/scouts/owners can get influenced by those expert analyses. However, if the player was hyped up to the point that expectations were beyond achievable, even for an otherwise supreme talent, then that player is destined to disappoint by failing to reach those lofty expectations. Therefore they "drop" from their rightful place, whether it's in the rankings or at the draft. Of course it's all subjective, but I thought Durant was a no-brainer #1 pick. I think that's all this article was trying to do for Wiggins; temper the hype, maintain fair expectations and remain in the position of top prospect.

  10. #390
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    But I think what Xixak is trying to say is that a player can't 'drop' from #1 if they were never really projected to go #1 in the first place. From what I remember, Oden was pretty well locked in at the #1 spot from the day he started at Ohio.
    And while I agree with you Calgary, that I was blown away that Durant didn't go #1, as his numbers warranted it, I also wasn't surprised as it was pretty well known fact that Oden would go #1.

    On a slightly related note, remember when people (myself included) thought Michael Beasley was better than Durant? ... Ugh.

    Crazy college stats aren't always a sure fire sign of success.
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  12. #391
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    Also, I think I saw someone ask 'if Dwight Howard were in the Draft with Wiggins, who would go #1?' ... it'd be Dwight. In my opinion anyway.

    Big men with that kind of dominating gameplay don't come along very often; certainly less frequently than a freakishly athletic 6'7"/6'8" Guard/Forward.
    And Oden was absolutely in that mould.

    Noel, Drummond, or even Anthony Davis (even though he did go #1), were never viewed as having that 2-way dominance potential, like Shaq, Dwight and Oden.
    Last edited by Joey; Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 at 05:19 PM.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Also, I think I saw someone ask 'if Dwight Howard were in the Draft with Wiggins, who would go #1?' ... it'd be Dwight. In my opinion anyway.

    Big men with that kind of dominating gameplay don't come along very often, and Oden was absolutely in that mould.
    Noels, Anthony Davis or Drummond were never viewed as having that 2-way dominance potential, like Shaq, Dwight and Oden.
    Agree with this. If I were to do a draft with all the #1 picks since 03 based on hype at the time it'd look like this:

    1.) LeBron James
    2.) Dwight Howard
    3.) Greg Oden
    4.) Blake Griffin
    5.) John Wall
    6.) Anthony Davis
    7.) Derrick Rose
    8.) Kyrie Irving
    9.) Andrew Bogut
    10.) Andrea Bargnani
    11.) Anthony Bennett

  14. #393
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Agree with this. If I were to do a draft with all the #1 picks since 03 based on hype at the time it'd look like this:

    1.) LeBron James
    2.) Dwight Howard
    3.) Greg Oden
    4.) Blake Griffin
    5.) John Wall
    6.) Anthony Davis
    7.) Derrick Rose
    8.) Kyrie Irving
    9.) Andrew Bogut
    10.) Andrea Bargnani
    11.) Anthony Bennett
    I'd even say the hype around Oden, at its peak, was more than Dwight.
    According to the media, Oden was supposed to win Championships. Not 1. Not 2. Not 3. Not 4.
    In Masai we Trust.

  15. #394
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Agree with this. If I were to do a draft with all the #1 picks since 03 based on hype at the time it'd look like this:

    1.) LeBron James
    2.) Dwight Howard
    3.) Greg Oden
    4.) Blake Griffin
    5.) John Wall
    6.) Anthony Davis
    7.) Derrick Rose
    8.) Kyrie Irving
    9.) Andrew Bogut
    10.) Andrea Bargnani
    11.) Anthony Bennett
    I think you've got Oden way too high. There were lots of people, including media/experts who argued that Durant should be #1 over Oden. I think Griffin, Irving and Wall have come out with about as much hype as anybody, as clear-cut consensus #1 picks. I think they'd fill slots #3-5, follwed by Rose and Davis... going purely on pre-draft hype. Although I'm not sure if there's a point to this, or what all of this has to do with signs of tanking...

  16. #395
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Although I'm not sure if there's a point to this, or what all of this has to do with signs of tanking...
    HAHAHAHA... shit. Good point.
    In Masai we Trust.

  17. #396
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I think you've got Oden way too high. There were lots of people, including media/experts who argued that Durant should be #1 over Oden. I think Griffin, Irving and Wall have come out with about as much hype as anybody, as clear-cut consensus #1 picks. I think they'd fill slots #3-5, follwed by Rose and Davis... going purely on pre-draft hype. Although I'm not sure if there's a point to this, or what all of this has to do with signs of tanking...
    Really, really disagree on Irving. A lot of people were knocking the Cavs HARD for not taking D-Will and then grabbing Kemba or Knight at #4. There were a lot of questions about Irving because of how many games he missed, and people didn't consider him a lock to become a star. Wall, Griffin, Oden were all on a completely different level of hype from him. To me it's kinda like this in tiers:


    Tier 1: LeBron
    Tier 2: Howard, Oden
    Tier 3: Griffin, Wall, Davis
    Tier 4: Rose, Irving
    Tier 5: Bogut, Bargnani, Bennett

  18. #397
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    HAHAHAHA... shit. Good point.
    Lol true... we are quite a ways off topic.

  19. #398
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    And too bring it back to Matt's original point; if Wiggins doesn't go #1, it will be a true surprise, and a true disappointment. That would be like if Lebron didn't go #1. Very few guys are projected, and expected, to go #1 before they even play in their 'final' year as a amateur. Lebron's the last one I can think of. Maybe my brain is fuzzy though. And I would say Oden fell into that catergory of early expectations.

    So in that sense, the comparisons are legit.
    Last edited by Joey; Fri Aug 23rd, 2013 at 05:34 PM.
    In Masai we Trust.

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