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Signs Of Tanking?

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  • Fully wrote: View Post
    You don't "lose" the pick if it falls within 1-12. It would carry over to the next season when it has the same protections (1-12). The following year it becomes completely unprotected. If you think there's a good chance that the Blazers finish outside of the playoffs the next two years (which is entirely possible), it's actually a sneaky good asset to acquire as all the protections come off in 2016.

    The expiring contracts on their face are 'throw-ins' in the context of the deal, but salary cap flexibility is valuable and something that the Raptors sorely need.

    So you've acquired close to $20 million in expiring money, a first round draft pick that has the potential to be incredibly valuable depending on how things go in Portland over the next few seasons, and have improved your chances of drafting highly with your own pick in 2014. That's a win.
    Ok sounds like a good deal let's do it.

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    • Fully wrote: View Post
      You don't "lose" the pick if it falls within 1-12. It would carry over to the next season when it has the same protections (1-12). The following year it becomes completely unprotected. If you think there's a good chance that the Blazers finish outside of the playoffs the next two years (which is entirely possible), it's actually a sneaky good asset to acquire as all the protections come off in 2016.

      The expiring contracts on their face are 'throw-ins' in the context of the deal, but salary cap flexibility is valuable and something that the Raptors sorely need. Neither Sessions nor Gordon would be in the plans once their contract expires but the options and flexibility that their expiring deals would provide Ujiri in subsequent years holds value beyond what type of players they are.

      So you've acquired close to $20 million in expiring money, a first round draft pick that has the potential to be incredibly valuable depending on how things go in Portland over the next few seasons, and have improved your chances of drafting highly with your own pick in 2014 by decreasing the talent level on the team in the short term. That's a win if rebuilding is the plan. Especially when it's for a player that you are convinced is opting out in 2014.
      Both Detroit and Portland picks are unprotected in 2016.

      I think toronto would have some leverage over Charlotte as well. We know Detroit has interest in Gay. If Detroit gets Gay that pick for charlotte might not be appealing.

      I'm totally talking out of my ass here. I just don't expect Smith to excel at SF.

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      • Craiger wrote: View Post
        I think what happens is you put your perceptions of what tankers are thinking and create a story based on that.

        I don't think tankers are expecting a 'ton' of assets back for Gay and Lowry. If Gay + Lowry were worth a ton, why would the team need to tank in the first place?? What they are expecting though is something more than 2 players who are only worth their expiring contracts (ie. CV and Stuckey).

        What they'd like to see is a trade that leads to 'losing now' but 'winning in the future'. eg. something like CV + Stuckey + picks for Gay.

        But riddle me this: if teams aren't willing to trade for Gay and Lowry, because they believe there is a legitimate chance their team may be better off without adding them, and therefore they aren't very valuable, why would one expect this team to be good with them? Just like you claim 'tankers' can't have their cake and eat it to, anti-tankers can't either.

        Either Gay and Lowry are good, and therefore valuable. Or they aren't good and therefore not valuable. Or they are somewhere in between both of those.

        Which is it?

        You are quickly becoming a stronghold of narratives and framing arguments. Yeah its great that they fit your belief system, unfortuantely they hardly make good arguments.
        WOW, talk about creating narratives and framing arguments!

        1. Tank nation keeps talking about getting valuable prospects and valuable picks as if they can be simply cherry picked, yet when challenged to present something that's viable and makes sense for both teams, come up with VERY FEW remote possibilities, attached to huge assumptions like Charlotte "going all in". All in for what? They may want to shoot for playoffs, but nobody in their right mind, here or there, could fathom them being "contenders" simply by getting what would be a very unhappy Rudy. What else have you got?

        2. This valuable or not valuable thing is not near as simplistic as you present (to support your narrative). In the NBA, players hold different values to different teams, as is often cited by tank supporters themselves, when bringing up "fit". The players you bring up are good players. To say otherwise is silliness, but what other teams have to evaluate is if they fit with their team and their own plans moving forward. It's not black/white, bad/good.

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        • p00ka wrote: View Post
          WOW, talk about creating narratives and framing arguments!

          1. Tank nation keeps talking about getting valuable prospects and valuable picks as if they can be simply cherry picked, yet when challenged to present something that's viable and makes sense for both teams, come up with VERY FEW remote possibilities, attached to huge assumptions like Charlotte "going all in". All in for what? They may want to shoot for playoffs, but nobody in their right mind, here or there, could fathom them being "contenders" simply by getting what would be a very unhappy Rudy. What else have you got?

          2. This valuable or not valuable thing is not near as simplistic as you present (to support your narrative). In the NBA, players hold different values to different teams, as is often cited by tank supporters themselves, when bringing up "fit". The players you bring up are good players. To say otherwise is silliness, but what other teams have to evaluate is if they fit with their team and their own plans moving forward. It's not black/white, bad/good.
          Why would Rudy be unhappy in Charlotte?

          I think Rudy on Charlotte is a better team than the Raptors.

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          • Matt52 wrote: View Post
            Why would Rudy be unhappy in Charlotte?

            I think Rudy on Charlotte is a better team than the Raptors.
            It's a created narrative, and yes, the irony hurts.

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            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
              Why would Rudy be unhappy in Charlotte?

              I think Rudy on Charlotte is a better team than the Raptors.
              Why unhappy?

              1. He just got re-united with his best friend (Lowry), and by all reports has begun a tight relationship with DeMar. He's human.
              2. By all accounts, the players on this team believe they can be very good, and have been putting in a lot of time together over the summer. Heck, the entire team, including newcomers Psycho T and Novak, got together in Vegas during Summer league, to bond and work out together.
              3. Where would you rather live? Charlotte or Toronto?

              As far as Charlotte being a better team. Really? I very strongly disagree, but we'll see.
              Last edited by p00ka; Thu Aug 15, 2013, 01:16 PM.

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              • Fully wrote: View Post
                It's a created narrative, and yes, the irony hurts.
                Well, I just provided some reasons I believe that. Do you have reasons to dispute it, or just content to take a cheap shot?

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                • p00ka wrote: View Post
                  Tank nation keeps talking about getting valuable prospects and valuable picks as if they can be simply cherry picked, yet when challenged to present something
                  It's a pointless direction, though. We don't have enough info and insight, in the end.

                  I think Atlanta makes some sense, they are trying to make the playoffs and they need a secondary creator and they need a SF; they also have great spacing which would allow Gay to pick his favorite spots. And they also have sexy young pieces to trade, like Shroeder, Nogueira, Jenkins, picks.

                  I think to a lesser degree he makes sense for the Pistons and the Cavs. It sounds sad, but when it comes to the Cavs he would be a huge upgrade defensively, and they could use a real 3.

                  Bucks, if they aren't tanking. They lack a SF starter, and Gay would certainly help them achieve .500, which seems to be their goal.

                  Wizards. One of the better fits.

                  Dallas. Although that would likely involve Vince coming back to Toronto, so I guess not.

                  Wolves. They could definitely use him, except he'd be a rental there. They can't afford him long term. But on the other hand, they won't be able to afford to re-sign Derrick Williams / Shved either, so there are some interesting options here.

                  But in the end, who thought that Bargnani would end up on the Knicks? That Thomas Robinson would get traded twice in a year after he seemed like everyone's favorite draft prospect? So it's all a fun bit of speculation, but it makes for a shitty argument in a discussion like this for either side.

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                  • p00ka wrote: View Post
                    Why unhappy?

                    1. He just got re-united with his best friend (Lowry), and by all reports has begun a tight relationship with DeMar. He's human.
                    2. By all accounts, the players on this team believe they can be very good, and have been putting in a lot of time together over the summer. Heck, the entire team, including newcomers Psycho T and Novak, got together in Vegas during Summer league, to bond and work out together.
                    3. Where would you rather live? Charlotte or Toronto?

                    As far as Charlotte being a better team. Really? I very strongly disagree, but we'll see.
                    1. What if Lowry was sent with him? The NBA appears to be a huge fraternity these days. I'm sure he and DD will remain friends and there are possibilities for new friendships there as well.

                    2. With only DD, Amir, and Gray having more than 1 full season in Toronto I am a little leery here. But chemistry is important and can't be dismissed.

                    3. I've never been to Charlotte. But I've heard good things plus the stereotypical advantages of an American playing in US.

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                    • p00ka wrote: View Post
                      Well, I just provided some reasons I believe that. Do you have reasons to dispute it, or just content to take a cheap shot?
                      You're using deductive reasoning, which I personally have no problem with. I actually agree with your logic that Gay would be unhappy (at least initially) if he was moved to Charlotte.
                      However when Craiger used deductive reasoning to suggest that the Bobcats may be interested in accelerating their rise from the basement of the standings, you accused him of creating narratives.

                      So yes, if you feel like you're above the same criticism that you hurled at someone else moments before... I find it ironic.

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                      • p00ka wrote: View Post
                        Well, I just provided some reasons I believe that. Do you have reasons to dispute it, or just content to take a cheap shot?
                        So we can agree everyone is creating narratives to suit their opinion - myself included?

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                        • Why hate Charlotte?

                          "Take every crazy, angry idea your drunk, right-wing uncle mumbles at Thanksgiving, turn it into a law and that's North Carolina today." - Bill Maher

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                          • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                            Why hate Charlotte?
                            Lol

                            Oh

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                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              Lol

                              Oh
                              They just passed a law making it legal to carry concealed firearms in bars and playgrounds. And that's just the beginning of Carolina craziness.

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                              • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                They just passed a law making it legal to carry concealed firearms in bars and playgrounds.
                                That sounds like it would be more attractive to the average American pro basketball player, not less attractive... ;-)
                                Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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