Signs Of Tanking?

[white men can't jump]

I honestly have trouble thinking of a worse one. I mean, Portland picking Sam Bowie in 1984 ahead of MJ, Barkley, Stockton and Alvin Robertson was unfortunate, but Bowie had a perfectly respectable NBA career. Ditto Joe Smith ahead of Sheed, KG and Jerry Stackhouse in 1995 - Smith was never a superstar but he was rock-solid for basically forever.

Maybe Philly picking Shawn Bradley ahead of Penny Hardaway and Jamal Mashburn in 1993, just because everybody at the time agreed it was a really risky pick (as opposed to Darko in 2003, where everybody was convinced for some reason he was a basketball god). That might be a worse pick. Michael Olokowandi (ahead of Vince, Dirk and Paul Pierce) probably has a shot at beating Darko too.

Yeah, I also don't think Smith or Bowie are really as bad. They weren't quite bad enough players to be. Bowie definitely isn't a worse pick than Darko in their respective drafts in terms of ability to be an NBA player.

Olowokandi's pretty bad. Definitely up there. Not sure I'd put him ahead of Darko, because teams seemed to make some generally bad choices in that 1998 draft. I think the Bradley pick is too comical to be bad. Like you say, everyone knew it was risky/stupid. People actually thought Darko was going to be good. Same with Olowokandi. I think those could be the worst 2.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

The 2004 Pistons didn't have a superstar, marquee-level player but they did have:

1. A four-time All Star, four-time Defensive Player of the Year, two-time rebounding champion, three-time All-NBA Second Team, five-time All-NBA Defensive Team player (Ben Wallace)
2. A five-time All Star, two-time All-NBA Defensive Second Team, one-time All-NBA Second Team player (Chauncey Billups)
3. A three-time All Star (Richard Hamilton)
4. A four-time All Star (Rasheed Wallace)
5. A four-time All-NBA Defensive Second Team player (Tayshaun Prince)
6. A one-time All Star (Mehmet Okur)
7. A Sixth Man of the Year (Corliss Williamson)

Basically, the 2004 Pistons were loaded with talent, and the only reason Detroit didn't become a dynasty is because they wasted their pick in the 2003 draft on Darko Milicic rather than Melo/Wade/Bosh. Detroit never had an A+ level superstar player, but they compensated for it by having a roster that was stuffed with A-level players.

I dont think they got a bad pick in Darko. They THOUGHT they got a bad pick in Darko and treated him as such. The guy was averaging 15 and 7 with almost 2 blks in europe before Detroit drafted him. At that time, they were loaded in the frontcourt and they still took him. They did not give the guy the chance to develop. Same happened with Amir. Unfortunately for Darko he couldnt recover while Amir did.

[white men can't jump]

Put Kwame Brown on the list. 2001 wasn't a great draft but you have 3 All-NBA guys in the top 10 (Chandler, Gasol and Joe Johnson).

Darko was a bad pick cause Detroit based it on one workout. There was an ESPN "oral history" of that draft awhile ago and it was fascinating how the Darko stuff transpired - it was basically all happenstance. If you can find the article it's a great read for ball fans.

Ah Kwame...definitely pretty high on the list.

[p00ka]

The 2004 Pistons didn't have a superstar, marquee-level player but they did have:

1. A four-time All Star, four-time Defensive Player of the Year, two-time rebounding champion, three-time All-NBA Second Team, five-time All-NBA Defensive Team player (Ben Wallace)
2. A five-time All Star, two-time All-NBA Defensive Second Team, one-time All-NBA Second Team player (Chauncey Billups)
3. A three-time All Star (Richard Hamilton)
4. A four-time All Star (Rasheed Wallace)
5. A four-time All-NBA Defensive Second Team player (Tayshaun Prince)
6. A one-time All Star (Mehmet Okur)
7. A Sixth Man of the Year (Corliss Williamson)

Basically, the 2004 Pistons were loaded with talent, and the only reason Detroit didn't become a dynasty is because they wasted their pick in the 2003 draft on Darko Milicic rather than Melo/Wade/Bosh. Detroit never had an A+ level superstar player, but they compensated for it by having a roster that was stuffed with A-level players.

To be fair, those representations are not a reflection of the team that won in 2004. For example purposes, since we only have amateur speculation/guessing of what the young Raptors will be in the future, it has to be fair to look at what those players on the 2004 team represented then.

Ben Wallace: There's no denying that Ben Wallace was a defensive beast, though a liability on offense (half the game). That year, he wasn't a "four time All Star, etc.", but 2 time All Star, both fan selections in years where coaches ended up filling in the front court with such stalwart All Stars as Brad Miller & Ilgauskus in 2003, and Kenyon Martin and Magloire in 2004. In other words, meh as an "All Star" at that point.

Chauncey Billups: Every one of those accolades came after 2004, including his first All star game 2 years later. selected along with 3 other Pistons, by their own coach.

Richard Hamilton: Exact same as Billups (see above)

Rasheed Wallace: Sheed had been 2 time all-star, the last a few years earlier with Portland, and not again until 2 years later, along with Billups and Hamilton above

Tayshaun Prince: Again, all those came later

Okur: His only All star appearance came 3 years later, while a Utah Jazz, and that was a Stern selection to replace injured Boozer

The point being that the way you describe them was not what they were in 2004, but what they would later receive as recognition. We don't know what these young Raps players will be in the future, no matter how expert we feel our evaluations are.

[white men can't jump]

I dont think they got a bad pick in Darko. They THOUGHT they got a bad pick in Darko and treated him as such. The guy was averaging 15 and 7 with almost 2 blks in europe before Detroit drafted him. At that time, they were loaded in the frontcourt and they still took him. They did not give the guy the chance to develop. Same happened with Amir. Unfortunately for Darko he couldnt recover while Amir did.

Apparently not just them, since he failed to capitalize on opportunities in Orlando, Memphis and Minnesota. Teams which all seemed pretty quick to give up on him. I'm not trying to give the guy crap, but it was an awful pick, especially given teh context. Detroit just needed a sure thing. They needed a guy who was fairly obviously more talented than all the guys they had on the team. Melo was a sure thing in that sense. Everyone knew that Melo's would be a big time scorer at the very least.

[Xixak]

To be fair, those representations are not a reflection of the team that won in 2004. For example purposes, since we only have amateur speculation/guessing of what the young Raptors will be in the future, it has to be fair to look at what those players on the 2004 team represented then.

Ben Wallace: There's no denying that Ben Wallace was a defensive beast, though a liability on offense (half the game). That year, he wasn't a "four time All Star, etc.", but 2 time All Star, both fan selections in years where coaches ended up filling in the front court with such stalwart All Stars as Brad Miller & Ilgauskus in 2003, and Kenyon Martin and Magloire in 2004. In other words, meh as an "All Star" at that point.

Chauncey Billups: Every one of those accolades came after 2004, including his first All star game 2 years later. selected along with 3 other Pistons, by their own coach.

Richard Hamilton: Exact same as Billups (see above)

Rasheed Wallace: Sheed had been 2 time all-star, the last a few years earlier with Portland, and not again until 2 years later, along with Billups and Hamilton above

Tayshaun Prince: Again, all those came later

Okur: His only All star appearance came 3 years later, while a Utah Jazz, and that was a Stern selection to replace injured Boozer

The point being that the way you describe them was not what they were in 2004, but what they would later receive as recognition. We don't know what these young Raps players will be in the future, no matter how expert we feel our evaluations are.

Thank you. They had a combined 3 all-star appearances (2 for Sheed, 1 for Ben) before teaming up. It wasn't like they just slapped a bunch of stars together.

They racked up all-star appearances afterwards because of how good the team was. Generally players on good teams get all-star consideration, which is why Luol Deng and Chris Bosh were all-stars last year despite having meh numbers.

[planetmars]

The 2004 Pistons were a good team, but in a really bad conference (it took only 36 wins to get the 8th seed, and a .500 record to get 5th seed). That Pistons team only won 54 games that year, and when they got to the finals it was the year when Kobe/Shaq imploded.

If this year's Raptors squad played when all those other teams were horrible then they may have a chance as well to get to the ECF or NBA finals.. but a lot went right for those Pistons that year. It would be very difficult to duplicate that feat in my opinion. I think it would be easier to find a superstar which is saying a lot because that alone is very difficult.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

Apparently not just them, since he failed to capitalize on opportunities in Orlando, Memphis and Minnesota. Teams which all seemed pretty quick to give up on him. I'm not trying to give the guy crap, but it was an awful pick, especially given teh context. Detroit just needed a sure thing. They needed a guy who was fairly obviously more talented than all the guys they had on the team. Melo was a sure thing in that sense. Everyone knew that Melo's would be a big time scorer at the very least.

i think it was too late for him by then. 3 years with your ass glued to the bench will probably do that to you. specially if you come from a tournament where NBA rules are a bit foreign.

yes, awful pick. but not an awful player. they definitely needed melo since they did not have a legit scorer in the frontcourt.

[planetmars]

i think it was too late for him by then. 3 years with your ass glued to the bench will probably do that to you. specially if you come from a tournament where NBA rules are a bit foreign.

yes, awful pick. but not an awful player. they definitely needed melo since they did not have a legit scorer in the frontcourt.

I wonder what would have happened if Detroit took Melo... Denver would have probably taken either Bosh or Wade. Would Toronto then have taken Darko (they already had Carter at SG so doubtful that they would have taken Wade).. and how would he have done in Toronto if he developed better than he did in Detroit?

The Raptors history would have completely changed if Detroit just took the guy that everyone expected them to take.

*EDIT* - I guess if Denver took Wade then it wouldn't have affected Toronto so much, but the 'big 3' would not have happened in Miami then.

[SoAwesome]

Toronto Raptors are not going to tank. Only way Raps could be possibly tanking is that we have terrible record by Trade Deadline. Otherwise the Raps are pushing for the playoffs. Come on people, why does everyone want to tank? How would you even know tanking is going to WORK?! Lets try to make the playoffs and build from there.

[Xixak]

I'd like to see someone name 1 championship team that was built by trading your best players away for whatever you can get and deliberately tanking.

Just one example in the modern era is all I ask for.

I do agree that we should've tanked in 2011-2012 when our team was really had next to no talent on it, but that's not the case now. That ship has sailed.

[mcHAPPY]

Toronto Raptors are not going to tank. Only way Raps could be possibly tanking is that we have terrible record by Trade Deadline. Otherwise the Raps are pushing for the playoffs. Come on people, why does everyone want to tank? How would you even know tanking is going to WORK?! Lets try to make the playoffs and build from there.

That is a great idea if you are working with lots of financial flexibility.

Unfortunately, when you're just scrapping in to the playoffs (which is still not a given!) and already over the salary cap and knocking on the luxury tax door, it is really tough to make the type of building moves that do more than a first round exit.


If the Raptors had this roster with Gay, DeRozan, and Lowry on rookie deals you can certainly build from there but sadly that is not the case.

[Xixak]

That is a great idea if you are working with lots of financial flexibility.

Unfortunately, when you're just scrapping in to the playoffs (which is still not a given!) and already over the salary cap and knocking on the luxury tax door, it is really tough to make the type of building moves that do more than a first round exit.


If the Raptors had this roster with Gay, DeRozan, and Lowry on rookie deals you can certainly build from there but sadly that is not the case.

Idk how many times I have to say this. But even if we re-sign Gay and Lowry for 15M a year and 10M a year respectively (which is probably a high estimate), we would still have around 20M in cap space or more to play with in 2016 with Gay, Lowry, DD, Valanciunas, Ross and Novak on the books. Moving Novak's expiring deal could free up even more space.

[planetmars]

Idk how many times I have to say this. But even if we re-sign Gay and Lowry for 15M a year and 10M a year respectively (which is probably a high estimate), we would still have around 20M in cap space or more to play with in 2016 with Gay, Lowry, DD, Valanciunas, Ross and Novak on the books. Moving Novak's expiring deal could free up even more space.

How do you get $20M? The salary cap is at $58M.. let's say by 2016 it's $60M (and even then its unlikely). If Gay and Lowry make $25M and you add that to DeRozan, JV, Ross, Acy and Novak you will have a roster that makes roughly $48M. That leaves only $12M to work with and only 7 players on the team. Still need 5 more to fill out the bench and no MLE since you are below the cap.

[Xixak]

One thing I will say is if BC hadn't completely blown the 2012 pick by taking Ross over Drummond I don't think anyone would be advocating for a tank right now. That being said let's take a look at Indiana.

2010-2011:
The Pacers only have one player who's anything close to being a star, Danny Granger who puts up 21ppg on 43% shooting from the field. They also have an up and coming young bigman in Hibbert (13ppg 8rpg on 46%) and a rookie Paul George who looked somewhat promising but didn't exactly scream star (8ppg 4rpg in 21mpg on 45%). They went 37-45, finished 8th and got throttled by the Bulls in the 1st round.

2011-2012:
Now instead of blowing up the roster and tanking the Pacers looked to add another near-star to their core in David West via FA. He had put up 19-8 the previous season for a decent (46-36) Hornets team, but clearly wanted out because of the CP3 trade rumours. They also acquired George Hill in exchange for the 15th pick in the 2011 NBA Draft which gave them a better player at point guard. Indiana had a more balanced attack the next season. With Vogel taking over full-time they had a top 10 offense and defense and George and Hibbert made some improvements to their games. This allowed them to finish 3rd in the east at 42-24 and challenge Miami in the second round.

2012-2013
An injury to Granger gave Paul George more room to develop and he became an all-star caliber player in his 3rd season. Indiana improved defensively thanks to Hill's defense at PG and Hibbert's development into one of the NBA's best rim protectors. They were able to push Miami to the brink without Granger.

2013-2014
The Pacers expect to bring back Granger, improving their lineup further. And also took advantage of capped out and rebuilding teams to add CJ watson, Chris copeland and Luis Scola to their bench.