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Thread: Signs Of Tanking?

  1. #121
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Lakers look to be the only real option here.

    Cavs/Charlotte don't need Lowry and also have young SFs to develop in Karasev (possibly Bennett if they convert but I doubt) and MKG.

    Dallas doesn't have their pick, OKC does.
    I think you're missing the point about Cleveland and Charlotte. Both teams have SFs who can potentially develop into starters, agreed. But Cleveland - and maybe Charlotte - want to make playoffs now.

    Cleveland in particular didn't gamble on Andrew Bynum and spend six million on Jarrett Jack to back up Kyrie because they're still in rebuild mode. Cleveland is going all-in on playoffs now, as they should, and Rudy fills the gaping hole in their starting lineup at small forward since Bennett is apparently targeted to play power forward primarily. Rudy arguably turns Cleveland from competing for a 7-8 seed into a credible 5-6 seed contender.

    I think Charlotte is still hedging their bets on going all in, but if they have an early good run like they did at the start of last year when they went 6-4, there's a good chance they take the plunge. They have a much rougher start this year (their first ten games include Houston, Miami, and two with the Knicks) but if they go 5-5 over it, say, I think there's a good shot they go for it.

    Dallas, like LA, would probably need a tertiary trade partner to make work, someone who likely takes Vince.

  2. #122
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Charlotte is the team I would target. There's been plenty of reports this summer that they're looking to get out of the basement and the Al Jeff signing backs that up. They have young assets that should interest Ujiri in return. They have potentially three first round picks this summer - Portland's, Detroit's and their own.
    Their own pick isn't tradeable because it's currently traded to Chicago on a protected basis.

  3. #123
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    It's not just based on last year's Raptors. It's based on historical performance.

    - "Lowry was not 100% in camp"... He's always been injry-plagued. This is a concern. He's also never shown elite PG capability on a consistent basis, or done so with the calibre of team that can advance far in the playoffs. Even when healthy as a Raptor, and with Gay on board, the team was not a barn-burner.
    - "6 new players"... Big deal. Other teams adjust. If you bring in the right players, "6 new players" is actually a good thing.
    - "Bargnani injured"... Was this a curse, or a blessing? Not sure this backs up your argument in any way.
    - "Val injury"... Again, not sure a rookie C is the guy you should be mentioning in terms of keeping your team from contending.
    - "PG controversy"... Was made possible by Lowry's under-performance. And has been an issue everywhere he has played (not that he's a bad apple, just that he has never significantly out-performed his backup).
    - "Gay trade"... That made the team better initially, then regressed again. This was a "positive" move for the team, I thought?
    - "Gay vision problems"... Overblown. And a bad sign, in that he refused to get it fixed for 7 years because he doesn't like glasses or contacts. In other words, "I'd rather play blind than put my own finger in my eye." That's the guy you want leading your team?
    - "Roster revisions game to game"... Because our roster wasn't very good. And it will be the same roster, essentially, this year.
    - "Strategy conflict"... Might have had an effect on the defense, but not the offense. The team Colangelo built incl. Gay trade) was to facilitate run-and-gun, which was essentially the style of play that led them to a sub .500 record after the trade. It wasn't a "strategy" issue, it was always, and still is, a "personnel" issue.

    I like your optimism, but everything you present as reasons for the under-performance last year will still be factors this year.
    Lowry - i dont think he's injury plagued. he's missed some games but not in long stretches. this year was probably the worst, mainly because he didnt have a good training camp and probably wasnt ready for the season due to a prior injury.
    so even when healthy you expect them to play cohesively for half the season? mind you, gay had to adjust to 10 other guys on the team, not just with lowry.

    new players - can you name other teams in the league who have at least 5 new players coming in year after year who are among the top teams? with at least 50% of the starters as new acquisitions?

    bargnani - what im implying is another body taken away from the roster. adjustments. new rotation.

    pg controversy - i think its the other way around. he under-performed because he was given less minutes and made to change his pace and style of play.

    gay trade - it is a positive move. unfortunately, you cant create chemistry with just a few games remaining in the season. and the team wasnt better initially. they won against a paul-less clippers and against couple of other bad teams. IMO, gay was acquired to be the leader of this team, to have somebody to build on. i dont think BC was that dumb to think that by getting Gay theyd immediately become playoff chasers.

    gay vision - how about looking at it this way - ive been lucky to be able to play good even with this disability, but now i want to take my game to the next level and fix everything that may be hindering my capabilities. Did that thought ever occur to you?
    wouldnt it be a lot worse if he came out and confessed about the eye problem and still did nothing about it?

    roster revision - it wasnt because the roster wasnt good, but its because its pretty much an adjustment season. 6 new players including two rookies, one of which is your future cornerstone, and you expect them to be Miami in one single season? its obvious that this team doesnt have the talent that Miami or OKC has, so what can make this current roster better other than the obvious which is talent? stability. consistency. defined roles. experience. things that people take waaaay for granted, and rather bring to the table money, cap space, draft as excuses.

    strategy conflict - nobody is disputing that there are still holes in the roster. and defense is a big issue, specially a lack thereof. colangelo wants to score and run, casey wants to play half court and defend. how is that not a conflict? can you explain why miami still has a coach? if its all personnel then why wont they just let the big three do their own thing? fans give credit to lebron but critics give credit to spoelstra. see the difference.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Thu Aug 8th, 2013 at 01:44 PM.

  4. #124
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    With respect to Rudy, here are some options that work (I am not going to include picks here, but assume that we would want them in any such trade):

    CLEVELAND (under the cap even post-Bynum): Alonzo Gee, Tristan Thompson, CJ Miles
    CHARLOTTE: Ben Gordon (you can add any single prospect as well but this trade works with Gordon for Rudy straight up, math-wise)
    DALLAS: Shawn Marion, Vince Carter, Jae Crowder
    LAKERS: Steve Nash + pieces from the Lakers' low end

    The Lakers, incidentally, are the obvious targets for a Lowry trade as well, followed by the Bucks, but Lowry we might want to hold off on trading early because I expect his value will increase across the season - especially if a PG on a trying-to-make-playoffs team gets injured. Say Ricky Rubio goes down - Minnesota will start looking. Etc.
    The Lakers can't trade their 2014 first round pick as their 2015 pick is owed to Phoenix due to the Stepien rule... they also can't trade their 2016 pick (same reason) but also their 2017 pick (owed to Orlando) and hence their 2018 pick is unavailable as well.

    I think the Lakers make a bad trading partner due to the fact that they can't trade any first rounders for at least 5 years.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't think you are looking at legit contenders. Legit contenders rarely have established rookie contract players - and if they do have rookie contract players they are looking to keep them because in all likelihood they have expensive star player as they are contenders.

    I think the teams you need to look at are the teams on the verge of making the playoffs. Cleveland, Detroit, Charlotte come immediately to mind.

    It will be interesting the NBA landscape come the beginning of December. It will be at this point teams decide to fold, hold, or go all in. I am praying Charlotte goes all in and Gay+Lowry are in their sights.
    Why would they want Lowry?

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    The Lakers can't trade their 2014 first round pick as their 2015 pick is owed to Phoenix due to the Stepien rule... they also can't trade their 2016 pick (same reason) but also their 2017 pick (owed to Orlando) and hence their 2018 pick is unavailable as well.

    I think the Lakers make a bad trading partner due to the fact that they can't trade any first rounders for at least 5 years.
    Was not aware of that, cross them off the list too then.

    So it looks like right now there are no ideal trading partners for Gay.

  7. #127
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Why would they want Lowry?
    Isn't he going to have a ridiculous year this upcoming season?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Isn't he going to have a ridiculous year this upcoming season?
    Even if he were don't they have Kemba Walker? By all accounts he showed some promise last year. 18-6-4 on 42-32-80 shooting with a PER of 19 and 2 steals per game.

    Btw you don't need to make rude sarcastic remarks towards me man. We're just debating there's no need for any animosity.

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  10. #129
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    The Lakers can't trade their 2014 first round pick as their 2015 pick is owed to Phoenix due to the Stepien rule... they also can't trade their 2016 pick (same reason) but also their 2017 pick (owed to Orlando) and hence their 2018 pick is unavailable as well.

    I think the Lakers make a bad trading partner due to the fact that they can't trade any first rounders for at least 5 years.
    The Lakers are a tertiary partner, like I said. We send them Rudy and/or Lowry, they send out Nash and/or Pau to us and/or other teams, and we get picks and garbage from team 3.

  11. #130
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    The Lakers are a tertiary partner, like I said. We send them Rudy and/or Lowry, they send out Nash and/or Pau to us and/or other teams, and we get picks and garbage from team 3.
    The problem is that I don't think Nash nor Gasol would be able to get very good picks.. both are near expiring (Nash in one more year) but they are both old (Nash is in his 40's!). If anything only contending teams would be attracted to either player and that would mean getting a pick in the late 20's.. is that worth it for Lowry and Gay who are both potentially expiring contracts themselves?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Even if he were don't they have Kemba Walker? By all accounts he showed some promise last year. 18-6-4 on 42-32-80 shooting with a PER of 19 and 2 steals per game.

    Btw you don't need to make rude sarcastic remarks towards me man. We're just debating there's no need for any animosity.
    But you're not trading Kemba for Lowry. Kemba is part of the package to get Lowry AND Gay.


    I do not think you are in position to say anything to anyone about sarcastic or undermining remarks. But out of respect for your wishes, I will keep that in mind.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  14. #132
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    But you're not trading Kemba for Lowry. Kemba is part of the package to get Lowry AND Gay.


    I do not think you are in position to say anything to anyone about sarcastic or undermining remarks. But out of respect for your wishes, I will keep that in mind.
    I don't understand what you're getting at here.

    Are you suggesting Kemba+Ben Gordon+1st or something for Gay and Lowry?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    My opinion is not to "stay the course". I just thinking "staying the course" is better than trading away guys JUST to tank and selling low. Then feeling like shit when the draft rolls around and we don't get a star.

    I didn't post here much before but I remember how pissed everyone was in 2011 on RealGM when we fell from 3rd to 5th in the draft.
    Those were common thoughts when JV was drafted. I was at a buddy's house and everyone was shitting themselves while I smiled like a school girl.

    What everyone thinks on draft night rarely comes to pass unless you get one of the rare bonafide superstars - and even then it is an unknown. Remember the KD too thin and weak that dodged him his first year or two?
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  16. #134
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I don't understand what you're getting at here.

    Are you suggesting Kemba+Ben Gordon+1st or something for Gay and Lowry?
    Yes. You've only been posting here on a consistent basis of late but my dream scenario is Kemba/Biyombo/Gordon + draft picks for Lowry/Gay.

    Charlotte appears to be one of the few teams left (luckily along with Detroit and Cleveland) that do the eye test and ignore any statistical analysis in their decision making.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Yes. You've only been posting here on a consistent basis of late but my dream scenario is Kemba/Biyombo/Gordon + draft picks for Lowry/Gay.

    Charlotte appears to be one of the few teams left (luckily along with Detroit and Cleveland) that do the eye test and ignore any statistical analysis in their decision making.
    If this happened I would cream my pants and sign my soul over to Ujiri.

    Charlotte would have to be silly to take that deal.

  18. #136
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    That trade doesn't work mathematically though. (Charlotte is taking on like 5M too much salary).

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Even if he were don't they have Kemba Walker? By all accounts he showed some promise last year. 18-6-4 on 42-32-80 shooting with a PER of 19 and 2 steals per game.

    Btw you don't need to make rude sarcastic remarks towards me man. We're just debating there's no need for any animosity.
    I'm tempted to log on the desktop site and reply to this post with every post you've made..

    You are the least respectful "rude" poster on this site and then some..

    Infact, I recommend Matt throw another 1000 "rude sarcastic remarks" towards you. Then maybe you might have some competition..
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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  21. #138
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    I'm tempted to log on the desktop site and reply to this post with every post you've made..

    You are the least respectful "rude" poster on this site and then some..

    Infact, I recommend Matt throw another 1000 "rude sarcastic remarks" towards you. Then maybe you might have some competition..
    Whatever floats your boat bud

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    If this happened I would cream my pants and sign my soul over to Ujiri.

    Charlotte would have to be silly to take that deal.
    It's most often fantasy scenarios that are spoken of when pushed to present something that makes sense in a Raptors tank "plan"

  23. #140
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    If this happened I would cream my pants and sign my soul over to Ujiri.

    Charlotte would have to be silly to take that deal.
    Really?

    You are trading starter for starter in Lowry/Kemba.

    Biyombo is nothing more than an energy back up which I think he'd excel at. With Zeller, Jefferson, and McBob plus Haywood not sure how much development Biyombo gets moving forward.

    Gay for Gordon and 2 protected picks (Detroit top 8 and Portland top 12).

    I actually think that is pretty reasonable - assuming the Bobcats are willing to throw the future for the present which I think they are.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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