Signs Of Tanking?

[magoon]

Lakers look to be the only real option here.

Cavs/Charlotte don't need Lowry and also have young SFs to develop in Karasev (possibly Bennett if they convert but I doubt) and MKG.

Dallas doesn't have their pick, OKC does.

I think you're missing the point about Cleveland and Charlotte. Both teams have SFs who can potentially develop into starters, agreed. But Cleveland - and maybe Charlotte - want to make playoffs now.

Cleveland in particular didn't gamble on Andrew Bynum and spend six million on Jarrett Jack to back up Kyrie because they're still in rebuild mode. Cleveland is going all-in on playoffs now, as they should, and Rudy fills the gaping hole in their starting lineup at small forward since Bennett is apparently targeted to play power forward primarily. Rudy arguably turns Cleveland from competing for a 7-8 seed into a credible 5-6 seed contender.

I think Charlotte is still hedging their bets on going all in, but if they have an early good run like they did at the start of last year when they went 6-4, there's a good chance they take the plunge. They have a much rougher start this year (their first ten games include Houston, Miami, and two with the Knicks) but if they go 5-5 over it, say, I think there's a good shot they go for it.

Dallas, like LA, would probably need a tertiary trade partner to make work, someone who likely takes Vince.

[magoon]

Charlotte is the team I would target. There's been plenty of reports this summer that they're looking to get out of the basement and the Al Jeff signing backs that up. They have young assets that should interest Ujiri in return. They have potentially three first round picks this summer - Portland's, Detroit's and their own.

Their own pick isn't tradeable because it's currently traded to Chicago on a protected basis.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

It's not just based on last year's Raptors. It's based on historical performance.

- "Lowry was not 100% in camp"... He's always been injry-plagued. This is a concern. He's also never shown elite PG capability on a consistent basis, or done so with the calibre of team that can advance far in the playoffs. Even when healthy as a Raptor, and with Gay on board, the team was not a barn-burner.
- "6 new players"... Big deal. Other teams adjust. If you bring in the right players, "6 new players" is actually a good thing.
- "Bargnani injured"... Was this a curse, or a blessing? Not sure this backs up your argument in any way.
- "Val injury"... Again, not sure a rookie C is the guy you should be mentioning in terms of keeping your team from contending.
- "PG controversy"... Was made possible by Lowry's under-performance. And has been an issue everywhere he has played (not that he's a bad apple, just that he has never significantly out-performed his backup).
- "Gay trade"... That made the team better initially, then regressed again. This was a "positive" move for the team, I thought?
- "Gay vision problems"... Overblown. And a bad sign, in that he refused to get it fixed for 7 years because he doesn't like glasses or contacts. In other words, "I'd rather play blind than put my own finger in my eye." That's the guy you want leading your team?
- "Roster revisions game to game"... Because our roster wasn't very good. And it will be the same roster, essentially, this year.
- "Strategy conflict"... Might have had an effect on the defense, but not the offense. The team Colangelo built incl. Gay trade) was to facilitate run-and-gun, which was essentially the style of play that led them to a sub .500 record after the trade. It wasn't a "strategy" issue, it was always, and still is, a "personnel" issue.

I like your optimism, but everything you present as reasons for the under-performance last year will still be factors this year.

Lowry - i dont think he's injury plagued. he's missed some games but not in long stretches. this year was probably the worst, mainly because he didnt have a good training camp and probably wasnt ready for the season due to a prior injury.
so even when healthy you expect them to play cohesively for half the season? mind you, gay had to adjust to 10 other guys on the team, not just with lowry.

new players - can you name other teams in the league who have at least 5 new players coming in year after year who are among the top teams? with at least 50% of the starters as new acquisitions?

bargnani - what im implying is another body taken away from the roster. adjustments. new rotation.

pg controversy - i think its the other way around. he under-performed because he was given less minutes and made to change his pace and style of play.

gay trade - it is a positive move. unfortunately, you cant create chemistry with just a few games remaining in the season. and the team wasnt better initially. they won against a paul-less clippers and against couple of other bad teams. IMO, gay was acquired to be the leader of this team, to have somebody to build on. i dont think BC was that dumb to think that by getting Gay theyd immediately become playoff chasers.

gay vision - how about looking at it this way - ive been lucky to be able to play good even with this disability, but now i want to take my game to the next level and fix everything that may be hindering my capabilities. Did that thought ever occur to you?
wouldnt it be a lot worse if he came out and confessed about the eye problem and still did nothing about it?

roster revision - it wasnt because the roster wasnt good, but its because its pretty much an adjustment season. 6 new players including two rookies, one of which is your future cornerstone, and you expect them to be Miami in one single season? its obvious that this team doesnt have the talent that Miami or OKC has, so what can make this current roster better other than the obvious which is talent? stability. consistency. defined roles. experience. things that people take waaaay for granted, and rather bring to the table money, cap space, draft as excuses.

strategy conflict - nobody is disputing that there are still holes in the roster. and defense is a big issue, specially a lack thereof. colangelo wants to score and run, casey wants to play half court and defend. how is that not a conflict? can you explain why miami still has a coach? if its all personnel then why wont they just let the big three do their own thing? fans give credit to lebron but critics give credit to spoelstra. see the difference.

[planetmars]

With respect to Rudy, here are some options that work (I am not going to include picks here, but assume that we would want them in any such trade):

CLEVELAND (under the cap even post-Bynum): Alonzo Gee, Tristan Thompson, CJ Miles
CHARLOTTE: Ben Gordon (you can add any single prospect as well but this trade works with Gordon for Rudy straight up, math-wise)
DALLAS: Shawn Marion, Vince Carter, Jae Crowder
LAKERS: Steve Nash + pieces from the Lakers' low end

The Lakers, incidentally, are the obvious targets for a Lowry trade as well, followed by the Bucks, but Lowry we might want to hold off on trading early because I expect his value will increase across the season - especially if a PG on a trying-to-make-playoffs team gets injured. Say Ricky Rubio goes down - Minnesota will start looking. Etc.

The Lakers can't trade their 2014 first round pick as their 2015 pick is owed to Phoenix due to the Stepien rule... they also can't trade their 2016 pick (same reason) but also their 2017 pick (owed to Orlando) and hence their 2018 pick is unavailable as well.

I think the Lakers make a bad trading partner due to the fact that they can't trade any first rounders for at least 5 years.

[Xixak]

I don't think you are looking at legit contenders. Legit contenders rarely have established rookie contract players - and if they do have rookie contract players they are looking to keep them because in all likelihood they have expensive star player as they are contenders.

I think the teams you need to look at are the teams on the verge of making the playoffs. Cleveland, Detroit, Charlotte come immediately to mind.

It will be interesting the NBA landscape come the beginning of December. It will be at this point teams decide to fold, hold, or go all in. I am praying Charlotte goes all in and Gay+Lowry are in their sights.

Why would they want Lowry?

[Xixak]

The Lakers can't trade their 2014 first round pick as their 2015 pick is owed to Phoenix due to the Stepien rule... they also can't trade their 2016 pick (same reason) but also their 2017 pick (owed to Orlando) and hence their 2018 pick is unavailable as well.

I think the Lakers make a bad trading partner due to the fact that they can't trade any first rounders for at least 5 years.

Was not aware of that, cross them off the list too then.

So it looks like right now there are no ideal trading partners for Gay.

[mcHAPPY]

Why would they want Lowry?

Isn't he going to have a ridiculous year this upcoming season?

[Xixak]

Isn't he going to have a ridiculous year this upcoming season?

Even if he were don't they have Kemba Walker? By all accounts he showed some promise last year. 18-6-4 on 42-32-80 shooting with a PER of 19 and 2 steals per game.

Btw you don't need to make rude sarcastic remarks towards me man. We're just debating there's no need for any animosity.

[magoon]

The Lakers can't trade their 2014 first round pick as their 2015 pick is owed to Phoenix due to the Stepien rule... they also can't trade their 2016 pick (same reason) but also their 2017 pick (owed to Orlando) and hence their 2018 pick is unavailable as well.

I think the Lakers make a bad trading partner due to the fact that they can't trade any first rounders for at least 5 years.

The Lakers are a tertiary partner, like I said. We send them Rudy and/or Lowry, they send out Nash and/or Pau to us and/or other teams, and we get picks and garbage from team 3.

[planetmars]

The Lakers are a tertiary partner, like I said. We send them Rudy and/or Lowry, they send out Nash and/or Pau to us and/or other teams, and we get picks and garbage from team 3.

The problem is that I don't think Nash nor Gasol would be able to get very good picks.. both are near expiring (Nash in one more year) but they are both old (Nash is in his 40's!). If anything only contending teams would be attracted to either player and that would mean getting a pick in the late 20's.. is that worth it for Lowry and Gay who are both potentially expiring contracts themselves?

[mcHAPPY]

Even if he were don't they have Kemba Walker? By all accounts he showed some promise last year. 18-6-4 on 42-32-80 shooting with a PER of 19 and 2 steals per game.

Btw you don't need to make rude sarcastic remarks towards me man. We're just debating there's no need for any animosity.

But you're not trading Kemba for Lowry. Kemba is part of the package to get Lowry AND Gay.


I do not think you are in position to say anything to anyone about sarcastic or undermining remarks. But out of respect for your wishes, I will keep that in mind.

[Xixak]

But you're not trading Kemba for Lowry. Kemba is part of the package to get Lowry AND Gay.


I do not think you are in position to say anything to anyone about sarcastic or undermining remarks. But out of respect for your wishes, I will keep that in mind.

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

Are you suggesting Kemba+Ben Gordon+1st or something for Gay and Lowry?

[mcHAPPY]

My opinion is not to "stay the course". I just thinking "staying the course" is better than trading away guys JUST to tank and selling low. Then feeling like shit when the draft rolls around and we don't get a star.

I didn't post here much before but I remember how pissed everyone was in 2011 on RealGM when we fell from 3rd to 5th in the draft.

Those were common thoughts when JV was drafted. I was at a buddy's house and everyone was shitting themselves while I smiled like a school girl.

What everyone thinks on draft night rarely comes to pass unless you get one of the rare bonafide superstars - and even then it is an unknown. Remember the KD too thin and weak that dodged him his first year or two?

[mcHAPPY]

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

Are you suggesting Kemba+Ben Gordon+1st or something for Gay and Lowry?

Yes. You've only been posting here on a consistent basis of late but my dream scenario is Kemba/Biyombo/Gordon + draft picks for Lowry/Gay.

Charlotte appears to be one of the few teams left (luckily along with Detroit and Cleveland) that do the eye test and ignore any statistical analysis in their decision making.

[Xixak]

Yes. You've only been posting here on a consistent basis of late but my dream scenario is Kemba/Biyombo/Gordon + draft picks for Lowry/Gay.

Charlotte appears to be one of the few teams left (luckily along with Detroit and Cleveland) that do the eye test and ignore any statistical analysis in their decision making.

If this happened I would cream my pants and sign my soul over to Ujiri.

Charlotte would have to be silly to take that deal.