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Thread: ESPN 5-on-5: Rudy Gay most Overrated Small Forward.

  1. #221
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    Default Overpaid

    So Rudy's biggest flaw is that his people were smart enough to negotiate a fantastic contract? Tell me, what does that have to do with his ability to add huge value to the Raptors on-court abilities? And why does that contract make him over rated?

    I'm quite happy to find that he employs people that good at their jobs. That tells me that he is probably able to employ good advisors for his other needs as well. Like an eye surgeon, or a tattoo artist, or a barber. Let's face it kids, the man is a dude and we're lucky to have him on the team. AND his presence makes another player, Kyle Lowry, feel a little less paranoid about his ability to point guard this team. Because IMO paranoia is KL's biggest problem. And BC's strategy of keeping Jose around to back him up never helped the team. The two back ups the Raps now have leave little room to question who is the man at the 1 spot.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Umm actually it's very possible that the 2015 class could be better than 2014. Some guys might stay two years (Parker is already rumored to be doing this) in order to increase their stock or for some college glory.
    The fact that players are considering reclassifying to raise their stock is pretty much proof that the 2015 class won't be as good as 2014. I agree, however, that 2015 looks to be a pretty strong draft class as well. It's just not going to be as strong as 2014, where guys who would be top-10 picks in other years will be going 20-30 or even lower.

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    Quote Roarque wrote: View Post
    Let's face it kids, the man is a dude
    Nuff said

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    LMAO! Please post that twitter conversation here. Would love to see it.
    Haha. Don't know if I'll be able to find it because it was so far back.

    Basically he quoted my tweet with an OH MY GOD and my mentions subsequently blew up with random people siding with him.

    EDIT: Found it.




    Probably should've worded my original tweet better. Oh well.
    Last edited by isaacthompson; Wed Aug 14th, 2013 at 04:09 PM.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Umm actually it's very possible that the 2015 class could be better than 2014. Some guys might stay two years (Parker is already rumored to be doing this) in order to increase their stock or for some college glory. It also might be easier to get into the top 5 in that draft when 7 teams that are significantly worse than us aren't trying to do the same thing.

    Also like Fair89 said we could probably get more back for Gay/Lowry after all-star or near all-star caliber contract years. Ujiri is not afraid to trade players right after signing them as we saw with Nene.

    Wouldn't it make more sense to start the tank now or at the deadline then, to enter 2014 draft as well as 2015? If they want to tank, may as well tank hard

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    Quote Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
    Wouldn't it make more sense to start the tank now or at the deadline then, to enter 2014 draft as well as 2015? If they want to tank, may as well tank hard
    Exactly.

    The Raptors have never tanked properly - except for 2010-11 but that was not intentional.

    Anyone remember the lineup the Nets sent out versus Toronto to end the 2011-12 season which cost the Raptors to move from 6th down to 8th in lottery? Lillard and Barnes would have been on the board. So much for all that character and culture gained in the 30 point blowout win.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Exactly.

    The Raptors have never tanked properly - except for 2010-11 but that was not intentional.

    Anyone remember the lineup the Nets sent out versus Toronto to end the 2011-12 season which cost the Raptors to move from 6th down to 8th in lottery? Lillard and Barnes would have been on the board. So much for all that character and culture gained in the 30 point blowout win.
    Stop making stuff up. Our lineup that game was just as bad as theirs if not worse.

    We started

    Ben Uzoh
    Alan Anderson
    James Johnson
    Ed Davis
    Jamaal Magloire

    Magloire and JJ hardly played (19 and 5 minutes apiece), while the other guys I mentioned as well as Solomon ALABI of all people and Gary Forbes all played over 40 minutes. This is the very definition of tanking a game.

    It's the cool thing to do to blame BC all the time, but it's not his fault that Ben Uzoh put up a triple-double, Ed dropped 24-12, AA Scored 20, Forbes scored 23 and Alabi had 11-19 and 3 blocks. Not a single regular starter got significant minutes.

    The Nets actually gave 31 and 29 minutes to Brooks and Morrow respectively, two guys ho had been large parts of their rotation for most of the year. Again, stop making stuff up.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Stop making stuff up. Our lineup that game was just as bad as theirs if not worse.

    We started

    Ben Uzoh
    Alan Anderson
    James Johnson
    Ed Davis
    Jamaal Magloire

    Magloire and JJ hardly played (19 and 5 minutes apiece), while the other guys I mentioned as well as Solomon ALABI of all people and Gary Forbes all played over 40 minutes. This is the very definition of tanking a game.

    It's the cool thing to do to blame BC all the time, but it's not his fault that Ben Uzoh put up a triple-double, Ed dropped 24-12, AA Scored 20, Forbes scored 23 and Alabi had 11-19 and 3 blocks. Not a single regular starter got significant minutes.

    The Nets actually gave 31 and 29 minutes to Brooks and Morrow respectively, two guys ho had been large parts of their rotation for most of the year. Again, stop making stuff up.
    You have good points.

    I would not go as far to say I made stuff up but I do recall the conversations in the media and on these very forums at the time talking about culture change vs. getting more balls and which was more important. Clearly the balls were more important.

    But good on you for ignoring me and continuing your never ending quest to get one over on me.... actually in this case I think you just did. Bravo bro!
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Exactly.

    The Raptors have never tanked properly - except for 2010-11 but that was not intentional.

    Anyone remember the lineup the Nets sent out versus Toronto to end the 2011-12 season which cost the Raptors to move from 6th down to 8th in lottery? Lillard and Barnes would have been on the board. So much for all that character and culture gained in the 30 point blowout win.
    The raps couldn't have sent out a worse line-up themselves. Uzoh, AA, ED, JJ, Magloire, with only Forbes and Alabi off the bench.

    *edit* oops, didn't see a post already covered it.
    Last edited by p00ka; Wed Aug 14th, 2013 at 07:22 PM.

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    The raps couldn't have sent out a worse line-up themselves. Uzoh, AA, ED, JJ, Magloire, with only Forbes and Alabi off the bench.

    *edit* oops, didn't see a post already covered it.
    Yes both teams were bad.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...204260TOR.html

    I think the dialogue at the time on culture change yada yada yada clouded my memory.

    Just to be clear: I was 100% wrong!
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  15. #231
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Exactly.

    The Raptors have never tanked properly - except for 2010-11 but that was not intentional.

    Anyone remember the lineup the Nets sent out versus Toronto to end the 2011-12 season which cost the Raptors to move from 6th down to 8th in lottery? Lillard and Barnes would have been on the board. So much for all that character and culture gained in the 30 point blowout win.
    I know the whole "BC-should-have-picked-Drummond theme" has been beaten to death, but perhaps another way to look at it would be: if Portland and Golden State could do a draft do-over, would they still pick Lillard or Barnes over Drummond?

    Point being that maybe tanking itself for draft position didn't matter as much as proper talent evaluation and the philosophy of drafting-for-talent vs drafting-for-need.

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    I know the whole "BC-should-have-picked-Drummond theme" has been beaten to death, but perhaps another way to look at it would be: if Portland and Golden State could do a draft do-over, would they still pick Lillard or Barnes over Drummond?

    Point being that maybe tanking itself for draft position didn't matter as much as proper talent evaluation and the philosophy of drafting-for-talent vs drafting-for-need.
    I don't know. Good question on GSW/por. At first I thought no way but with how things have played out, who knows?

    Definitely think BC broke his own rule of drafting better talent and stacking. But I'm not ready to give up on Ross yet.

  17. #233
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    Lillard for sure. It's a toss up between Barnes and Drummond, because GS could use another big behind Lee and Bogut. Drummond is a physical specimen, but has a long way to go before his basketball IQ catches up to Lillard and Barnes imo.

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    I feel like passing on Drummond was idiotic but showed BC's faith in JV was extremely high!

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I feel like passing on Drummond was idiotic but showed BC's faith in JV was extremely high!
    That's what I don't get. If he passed on Drummond because he was high on JV, then why pick up Ross considering he gave DeRozan a contract. Doesn't that mean he was high on DD as well? Maybe BC was just plain high.

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    That's what I don't get. If he passed on Drummond because he was high on JV, then why pick up Ross considering he gave DeRozan a contract. Doesn't that mean he was high on DD as well? Maybe BC was just plain high.
    lol, high maybe. Joking aside, I see a bit of a difference between those two scenarios. You don't need two starting level Cs, but you need at least 3 quality wings. Now, I'm not saying you can't use two quality Cs and use one as a trade piece, but purely looking at filling needs, there's a difference there.

    That being said, I'm still not sold on Drummond being the future superstar that so many are anointing him as after a rookie season coming off the bench. He's a strong, athletic beast, but has virtually no basketball skills beyond jumping, and his poor work-ethic rep may yet arise. There's been a lot of guys come into the league with his "potential", yet never reach it. Personally, I think both Drummond and Ross fit into that category of young guys that you need at least 3 years before you can compare the wisdom of their draft position.

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    Even if Drummond doesn't improve at all, he's a starting caliber center. It would take him going backwards, like maybe gaining a lot of weight like Eddy Curry, to be a bust at this point. Terrence Ross has a lot of work to do, if he's to justify that draft position.

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    Good lord. The reason this issue gets beat to death, is because there re still people out there so effin stubborn they would argue that Ross was a better pick than Drummond. If the stubborn buggers that continue to support this crazy idea would just admit the mistake, we could all move on.

    Face it, Toronto picked the wrong guy.

    You Don't think JV and Drummond on the same squad would be a MASSIVE coup????

    BC cocked that up worse than any other move I remember him messing up. Period.

  24. #239
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Good lord. The reason this issue gets beat to death, is because there re still people out there so effin stubborn they would argue that Ross was a better pick than Drummond. If the stubborn buggers that continue to support this crazy idea would just admit the mistake, we could all move on.

    Face it, Toronto picked the wrong guy.

    You Don't think JV and Drummond on the same squad would be a MASSIVE coup????

    BC cocked that up worse than any other move I remember him messing up. Period.
    1st bold - too early to tell, I think

    2nd bold - not really, since the team would really only ever be able to have one of them on the court at a time, which is an issue that gets magnified when you consider the league is going small and becoming more wing-dominant

    During the draft, when the Raps pick came up and Drummond was still available, I was hoping for them to trade down a couple spots to pickup an additional asset (even just adding an additional 2nd round pick or improving their own). I figured they'd still be able to get either Ross or Lamb in such a scenario. I believe BC has since said he did pursue such a move, but would have moved down to after Houston's earlier pick and feared none of the wings he liked would have still been available.

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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Good lord. The reason this issue gets beat to death, is because there re still people out there so effin stubborn they would argue that Ross was a better pick than Drummond. If the stubborn buggers that continue to support this crazy idea would just admit the mistake, we could all move on.

    Face it, Toronto picked the wrong guy.

    You Don't think JV and Drummond on the same squad would be a MASSIVE coup????

    BC cocked that up worse than any other move I remember him messing up. Period.
    I respect most of your posts, but I don't know what dimension you're in at the moment. Off topic, Drummond was brought up here in an entirely different context, and nobody has said anything close to what you're on about.

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