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Thread: RaptorsHQ: Kyle Lowry - The Enigma Part Deux

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    Default RaptorsHQ: Kyle Lowry - The Enigma Part Deux


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    I wonder, when people will just look at Kyle Lowry logically and realize he just isn't as good at Basketball as we all might have thought at some point.

    He didn't pan out anywhere else he was.

    If you compartmentalize his abilities, he appears to be a great player;
    - seems tough
    - seems aggressive
    - He can shoot
    - He can get to the rim

    except, you can also change perception;

    - his toughness becomes reckless aggression
    - his aggression starts to look like undisciplined and out of control behavior, opposite of what is required of professional PG and leader.
    - He can get hot, but he rarely makes easy plays to get those easy 17ft jumpers he should be taking. And he all too often misses the point of running plays when he looks off, or simply doesnt see other players easy looks while looking for his own offence.
    - Again, gets to the rim, but at what cost to the overall health of the offence.


    Basically Lowry has the body and the skill to be a good player, but unfortunately it seems he doesn't have the brain to put it together, he doesn't have the humility required to be true leader and as a facilitator, or true PG, the dude just doesn't know how or when to pass the ball.

    Now I have heard it all many times..... "oh he's a great PG, he just needs time" "oh he is amazing, he is RATED top ten by espn" blah blah...this is all talk, none of it is action. What you do on the floor is who you are. I like his effort, hate his whiney attitude. Love his range, hate that there are three guys wide open when he is using it.

    Kyle Lowry, to this point has shown he is nothing more than a really decent back up on a decent team. He ha shown little sign that he either can, or wants to change that up. Casey and Colangelo provided the fire ANY PG would have needed by using Calderon to show Lowry up a bit last year, and that seemed to break him a little, so here we are, and where we go is anyones guess but I tell you this much. If the new GM is worth any of what he is advertised to be, and if Lowry isn't showing signs that he finally is wither willing, or capable to be a true PG and positive team leader in Toronto, then he need to be gone by February.

    No hate. Not bitter. Just is what it is guys.

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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    I wonder, when people will just look at Kyle Lowry logically and realize he just isn't as good at Basketball as we all might have thought at some point.

    He didn't pan out anywhere else he was.

    If you compartmentalize his abilities, he appears to be a great player;
    - seems tough
    - seems aggressive
    - He can shoot
    - He can get to the rim

    except, you can also change perception;

    - his toughness becomes reckless aggression
    - his aggression starts to look like undisciplined and out of control behavior, opposite of what is required of professional PG and leader.
    - He can get hot, but he rarely makes easy plays to get those easy 17ft jumpers he should be taking. And he all too often misses the point of running plays when he looks off, or simply doesnt see other players easy looks while looking for his own offence.
    - Again, gets to the rim, but at what cost to the overall health of the offence.


    Basically Lowry has the body and the skill to be a good player, but unfortunately it seems he doesn't have the brain to put it together, he doesn't have the humility required to be true leader and as a facilitator, or true PG, the dude just doesn't know how or when to pass the ball.

    Now I have heard it all many times..... "oh he's a great PG, he just needs time" "oh he is amazing, he is RATED top ten by espn" blah blah...this is all talk, none of it is action. What you do on the floor is who you are. I like his effort, hate his whiney attitude. Love his range, hate that there are three guys wide open when he is using it.

    Kyle Lowry, to this point has shown he is nothing more than a really decent back up on a decent team. He ha shown little sign that he either can, or wants to change that up. Casey and Colangelo provided the fire ANY PG would have needed by using Calderon to show Lowry up a bit last year, and that seemed to break him a little, so here we are, and where we go is anyones guess but I tell you this much. If the new GM is worth any of what he is advertised to be, and if Lowry isn't showing signs that he finally is wither willing, or capable to be a true PG and positive team leader in Toronto, then he need to be gone by February.

    No hate. Not bitter. Just is what it is guys.
    I agree with some of this.

    -His aggression is a strength but can also be a weakness. He's often like a full back and wants to go head down straight at the net. I think it also contributes to his rather regular injuries (along with mixing it up with bigs for rebounds)

    - but I couldn't disagree more with the '17fters he should be taking' comment. Those shots should be the last option. Even for a great mid range shooter, those shots should be situational. Shots at the rim and from 3 are not only incredibly more efficient, both are actually offensively rebounded more often than mid range shots. One of Lowry's greatest strengths has been his historical shot selection - a lot at the rim and from 3.

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    Love you and I on the same thread!! haha

    But do not love your view on the elbow shot. Off the PNR, that is a shot PG's from grade 8 up are expected to, and have mastered hitting. It's a very high percentage shot for good players. Without the ability to master that option, you will never be a true PG with regards to running plays off screens as your check never needs to really worry about getting screened off you.

    SO, should he learn that basic fundamental, it will open up;

    His own path to the hoop

    Simple passing lanes for the rolling big.

    pick and pop easy open three balls.

    and the ever lovely skip pass off the roll to Steve Novak in the corner.


    Its really basketball 101 IMO

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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Love you and I on the same thread!! haha

    But do not love your view on the elbow shot. Off the PNR, that is a shot PG's from grade 8 up are expected to, and have mastered hitting. It's a very high percentage shot for good players. Without the ability to master that option, you will never be a true PG with regards to running plays off screens as your check never needs to really worry about getting screened off you.

    SO, should he learn that basic fundamental, it will open up;

    His own path to the hoop

    Simple passing lanes for the rolling big.

    pick and pop easy open three balls.

    and the ever lovely skip pass off the roll to Steve Novak in the corner.


    Its really basketball 101 IMO
    Yeah, I agree with this. The elbow jumper is a shot your PG has to be able to hit.

    There's a lot of people on this site who constantly knock the mid-range jumper. It's the least effective shot in basketball in terms of efficiency and payoff. However, it is the shot that good defensive teams try to force you to take, and that in certain situations, you absolutely NEED some guys who can knock these shots down.

    The two most obvious positions where this is crucial are actually the bigs and the PG.

    On the screen and roll game, the mid-range jumper is the shot the D is trying to force the PG (or ballhandler) into 100% of the time. Your PG absolutely has to be adept at making this shot.

    As for the big, it's mostly because of how often they get stuck as an open man away from the basket. I mean, think how many Amir jumpers we've cringed watching over the years. He's pretty respectable now, and it gives our offense an important, even if somewhat small boost. If you don't have big(s) who can knock down that shot, especially now with zone Ds, on p'n'rs they'll swarm the PG and stay home on everyone else. Similarly if you try to dump it down and kick it around: they'll double off the other big, and try to force you to swing it to him for a long jumper.

    Now, you definitely want your wings to be able to hit that shot, but wings usually end up taking them in iso...which is generally a bad shot unless you have an accomplished post-up wing. So again, because in ball/player movement situations, where the offense/ball moves, you're bound to end up in situations pretty frequently where your big or your PG is wide open in the mid-range, and absolutely has to hit that shot to keep the D honest. This shouldn't be confused with the poorly chosen shots Toronto fans are all too familiar with our wings taking.

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    Lowry is an example, for me at least, of a guy who is productive but doesn't really help his team in the W-L column. They aren't necessarily empty stats (i.e. Ricky Davis) but he just never seems to have a big impact on a game in terms of winning/losing.

    I'm not sure he's an enigma, though. His numbers the last 3 seasons have been very consistent. He had a slight drop in his shooting percentages last season but it doesn't appear to be a trend. What we saw last season was pretty much what Kyle Lowry is. You'd anticipate him having a big season in his contract year but it could be that 13/7/5 is what you get out of him for the rest of his prime.

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    Lowry's got the talent to be a lead guard in the league but I'm not sure if he's got the maturity or intangibles to do so.

    He showed up to camp out of shape last year. Got hurt. Opened up the season posting ridiculous numbers. Got hurt. Returned from injury and treated us to his best Mike James impression as the losses piled up. Got called out along with Bargnani at a players only meeting for playing selfish. Got hurt. Lost his starting spot to Calderon as the team began to turn it around with him as the starter. Clashed with Casey all year. Played pretty well coming down the stretch when the games stopped mattering.

    Not exactly the type of season that inspires a lot of confidence.

    I know one season doesn't define a players career but there's plenty of similar stories in his past. A history of injuries. Documented clashes with coaches. Questions about conditioning. I know the stats are capable of being very impressive but all of this stuff matters to me too. Especially when you're staring down the barrel of extending this guy for close to $10 million this summer.

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    Since Chris Paul is just waiting for the starting PG spot to open up on the Toronto Raptors roster before he demands a trade, we should probably release Lowry right away.

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    Damn I wish we'd have seen the raps struggle more a couple years ago...how good does Lillard look now?

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Since Chris Paul is just waiting for the starting PG spot to open up on the Toronto Raptors roster before he demands a trade, we should probably release Lowry right away.
    Hey, you mock, but i actually believe that at some point something like that will happen for Toronto.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I know one season doesn't define a players career but there's plenty of similar stories in his past. A history of injuries. Documented clashes with coaches. Questions about conditioning. I know the stats are capable of being very impressive but all of this stuff matters to me too. Especially when you're staring down the barrel of extending this guy for close to $10 million this summer.
    I would be absolutely stunned if Lowry is with Toronto next year.

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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Damn I wish we'd have seen the raps struggle more a couple years ago...how good does Lillard look now?
    The crazy thing is, BC actually tried his best to have the team tank that year. With JV stashed in Europe, he fills out the team with a slew of 1 year scrub rentals, but Casey gets the mish-mash team to play great defense, and the Nets even out tank the Raps while Uzoh goes for a triple double that game with a 7 man line-up of him, Alan Anderson, James Johnson, Ed Davis, Magloire, Gary Forbes, and Alabi. LOL, who the hell expects to win by 30 with that line-up? Sometimes you can try your best to tank, yet it doesn't work.

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    Yes but the winning culture we created that season is what drove us to make the playoffs last year.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    you cant tank with 10 day contract guys down the stretch...they have too much to play for.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Lowry is an example, for me at least, of a guy who is productive but doesn't really help his team in the W-L column. They aren't necessarily empty stats (i.e. Ricky Davis) but he just never seems to have a big impact on a game in terms of winning/losing.

    I'm not sure he's an enigma, though. His numbers the last 3 seasons have been very consistent. He had a slight drop in his shooting percentages last season but it doesn't appear to be a trend. What we saw last season was pretty much what Kyle Lowry is. You'd anticipate him having a big season in his contract year but it could be that 13/7/5 is what you get out of him for the rest of his prime.
    Before he came here he was a starting point on a plus .500 team in Houston for two years straight. Only reason he hasn't been playoff is cause the west is so tough. Thier is no way you can fill out the stat sheet and not contribute to winning. You guys need to relax. Lowry is a starter in this league.

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Before he came here he was a starting point on a plus .500 team in Houston for two years straight. Only reason he hasn't been playoff is cause the west is so tough. Thier is no way you can fill out the stat sheet and not contribute to winning. You guys need to relax. Lowry is a starter in this league.
    Goran Dragic says "hi".
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Hey, you mock, but i actually believe that at some point something like that will happen for Toronto.
    At some point is a very broad timeline. At the moment Lowry is better than any option available to us. Lets hope the trade deadline is good to us.

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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Goran Dragic says "hi".
    From the bench I know.

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    From the bench I know.
    LOL. He took Lowry's job for a time, same as Jose, and Houston wanted him back more than they wanted Lowry back. Phoenix seems to like him quite a bit, and he put up comparable numbers to Lowry's career best there last year. Not sure what that says about Lowry. And suggesting that it's impossible for a player to "fill out the stat sheet and not contribute to winning" is also pretty rich.

    For that one, Mike James, among many others, says "hi".

    The point is, it's not clear-cut that Lowry can be a legit starter on a playoff team.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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