View Poll Results: Which legacy has left a bigger impression?

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  • Vince Carter's Positive Legacy

    41 89.13%
  • Andrea Bargnani's Negative Legacy

    5 10.87%
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Thread: Bargnani vs. Vince Carter - Raptors Legacy

  1. #41
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Ya, I didn't see us paying TMac the money he wanted, regardless of whether we had Vince or Antawn.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I don't want this to come off the wrong way, but weren't you like 5 when this was all going down? Lol

    Vince Carter took the popularity of the Raptors in Toronto, and Canada for that matter, from a 4/10 to 10/10, and in doing so, not just revitalized a fanbase; he gave birth to a whole fanbase.
    Revitalized?

    A bit dramatic no? The fan base was 3 years young when he was drafted.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    I too still feel the hurt with how VC left but i think the positives farther outweighs the negatives he did for Toronto and the Raptors.

    I think his jersey definitely needs to be retired and hung on the ACC rafters.

    I dont believe Jose has accomplished enough to have his jersey retired and put up there.

    VC and Bosh most definitely.
    I would personally find it humiliating to retire a jersey for someone who gets booed (and sometimes violently) for playing against the home team. So therefore I would not want to retire either Bosh's or Vince's jersey. The team has been awful.. it should not be celebrating its awfulness. Once they start winning then we can talk about retiring jerseys.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Neither. This franchise has done zero, nothing, it hasn't done shit. Nothing really big, and nothing really small has happened for it. Neither player really leaves anything more than statistical evidence that they once played in Toronto.

    Fans like to be dramatic.
    Agree

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    dude without Vince we probably wouldn't have a team right now. He was one of if not the most popular player(s) in the league during his time here (and even when he moved on to New Jersey). He's the reason basketball has gotten so big in Toronto, not just at the NBA level but now you have kids in the GTA aspiring to be in the NBA, that was not happening before he got here.

    I shudder to think about what state (lol do you see what I did there) this team might be in if we had drafted Antawn Jamison instead of Carter.
    Agree

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    In no way does Carter deserve to have his jersey retired in Toronto. I acknowledge he's the best player to ever wear a uniform, but that speaks more about how crappy this franchise has been since inception.

    Hall-of-famers deserve to have their jerseys retired. Carter isn't a hall-of-famer.
    Vince is the best player the raps have ever had. He also took us to game seven of round two, which is the most playoff wins we've ever had I one season. But I don't see how we retire his jersey, unless he comes back and is a key role player that gets us deep into the playoffs again (and I don't see that happening).

    Carter may get into the hall of fame, but I don't think he deserves to have his jersey retired in toronto.

    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Yes i was quite young. But i still know how it went down, i had cousins who used to follow the Raptors back then. Honestly i think we're overrating his impact. If it wasn't Vince it would have been T Mac or someone else that put us on the map. Vince's crazy dunking skills played a big role though, i'll give you that.
    I think you are seriously underestimating his impact. T-Mac (or someone else) may have given the raptors the numbers and wins that Carter did, but Carter reached a level in his first 3 years in Toronto in terms of STAR power that Macgrady never matched. Vince Carter sold out every stadium he played. Not just Toronto, EVERY stadium. Everyone wanted to see what he would do next.

    Unfortunately, he decided to trade the best shot in basket-ball (dunk/close to the rim) for the worst shot in basketball (Mid range J).

    Vince Carter is the only Athlete that I've waited in line for 2 hours to get their signature. He is also the only athlete who's signature I've torn up and burned in a garbage can. I didn't watch basketball for 3 years because of Vince. He is undoubtedly the best AND most talented player we've ever had, and the only bonafide SUPERSTAR we've had in franchise history. But I don't think he deserves a jersey in or rafters.

    Lebron deserves to have his jersey retired in Cleveland before Vince gets his in Toronto, don't think that either is likely to happen.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Fri Aug 9th, 2013 at 01:39 PM.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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  6. #45
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Revitalized?

    A bit dramatic no? The fan base was 3 years young when he was drafted.
    Sorry, I meant to say that he didn't so much 'revitalize', as he did 'give to birth to'.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

  7. #46
    Raptors Republic All-Star TRex's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Yes i was quite young. But i still know how it went down, i had cousins who used to follow the Raptors back then. Honestly i think we're overrating his impact. If it wasn't Vince it would have been T Mac or someone else that put us on the map. Vince's crazy dunking skills played a big role though, i'll give you that.
    Not possible.

    So you're crapping on Vince because your cousins say this and that about Vince? are u kidding me? reading some of your posts here i was confused at first. Now i know why. You didn't see him play for the Raptors. You were too young. So you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

    And by the way, VC was not just a dunker. He was also a GREAT player for the Raptors. So many memorable VC games/moments - All the game winners. Raptors first playoff series win against NYK in 2001. The 2001 series against Iverson and the Sixers was legendary. His duel with Van Exel and the Nuggets. All the crazy in game dunks. I can go on and on.
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  8. #47
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Anybody remember this?


    This still gets my riled up though, not going to lie.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

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  10. #48
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    I'm not even sure why this is even a debate, as the answer is clearly Vince.......I've been fortunate enough to be a season-seat holder since 2000 so can remember Vincanity very well, the building was electric in Vince's time......every time he got the ball on fast break or matched up an all-star on the other team a buzz went round the areana.

    Vince brought in sponsors, a fan-base and put Raptor basketball on the map......I honestly believe if it hadn't been for serious injury in 2002-03 things would have turned out very differently.

    The biggest legacy however is listening to all the up and coming studs on the Canadian National basketball team as they all say the same thing as to why they started to become inspired........I doubt that 7 or 8 years from now the new crop of Canadian hoops stars will state 'Bargnanni' as the reason they became inspired to play the game.

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  12. #49
    Raptors Republic Rookie big red's Avatar
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    Weird that this is even a question. The dictionary definition of a legacy: "something transmitted by or received from an ancestor or predecessor or from the past." So if we're talking about names or legends being passed on through time, then Carter it is. Sure he's not as ultimately legendary as Michael Jordan, but his is a name that will still be known or at least recognized by even casual fans for years to come.
    Bargnani was a so-so player that didn't live up to expectations and was barely marketed within Toronto as the headliner, never mind around the rest of the league. When he retires, chances are his name will rarely if ever be muttered by a sports writer, analyst, or commentator ever again. The only people who Bargs might have left as big an impression on as Carter are hardcore Raptors fans such as forum members here, and even that's a long shot unless you happen to be too young to have seen Carter in a Raps jersey. If you come back to this forum in a decade after we've seen another star or two I'm sure Carter's name will still come up regularly while Bargnani's name will be all but forgotten in favour of the new star/flop of that era.

  13. #50
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    Lebron deserves to have his jersey retired in Cleveland before Vince gets his in Toronto, don't think that either is likely to happen.
    ... or Howard in Orlando
    ... or Shaq in Orlando
    ... or Melo in Denver
    ... or Deron in Utah

  14. #51
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    ... or Howard in Orlando
    ... or Shaq in Orlando
    ... or Melo in Denver
    ... or Deron in Utah
    I think Cleveland will be forced to retire LeBron's jersey. The guy is an all time great and played over half his career there so far.

  15. #52
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Sorry, I meant to say that he didn't so much 'revitalize', as he did 'give to birth to'.
    well given that the Raptors averaged over 23,000 fans per game in their inagural season in the skydome, I think the fan base was already there.

    2001/02 was the Raptors top non skydome attendance record, followed by 2007/08

    Winning leads to fans. Players help lead to winning.

    While Vince was winning he brought fans, when he didn't, even Bosh could produce this same 'vitalization' process.

  16. #53
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    well given that the Raptors averaged over 23,000 fans per game in their inagural season in the skydome, I think the fan base was already there.

    2001/02 was the Raptors top non skydome attendance record, followed by 2007/08

    Winning leads to fans. Players help lead to winning.

    While Vince was winning he brought fans, when he didn't, even Bosh could produce this same 'vitalization' process.
    Let's try this again... he energized a fanbase. Better word? Lol
    While the fans were always there, he brought an electricity to the City that we've not seen in some time.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

  17. #54
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Is VC a hall of famer? whats your opinion of this?

    If hes inducted might as well retire the jersey.

  18. #55
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    Vince Carter is both the best thing and the worst thing that ever happened to the franchise. There is no denying that his talent and skill level brought more attention, clear across the country, to the team and even the NBA. In that sense, his impact has been huge and will be long-lasting. On the other hand, the ways he conducted himself in his last couple of years, including welching on his team, he'll never have his number retired here. Nor does he deserve it.

    As far as HOF, I wouldn't be shocked if he got in, but imo he doesn't deserve it. He didn't exceed expectations, but has been one of the biggest wastes of talent I've ever seen in the sport. With a little Kobe like heart, he could have been soooooooo much more. I don't think someone who underachieves should be a HOFer.

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  20. #56
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Players have gotten in for less, even if he may not deserve it. I mean Bill Bradley is a HOFer....

  21. #57
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Yeah the hall of fame is a bit of a joke that way. I also a fan of simmons pyramid of fame, as outlined in his "Book of Basketball"
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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  23. #58
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Not possible.

    So you're crapping on Vince because your cousins say this and that about Vince? are u kidding me? reading some of your posts here i was confused at first. Now i know why. You didn't see him play for the Raptors. You were too young. So you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

    And by the way, VC was not just a dunker. He was also a GREAT player for the Raptors. So many memorable VC games/moments - All the game winners. Raptors first playoff series win against NYK in 2001. The 2001 series against Iverson and the Sixers was legendary. His duel with Van Exel and the Nuggets. All the crazy in game dunks. I can go on and on.
    Dude I've seen all the playoffs games with Carter. I'm not saying he's a bad player, he just doesn't deserve to have his jersey retired. He may have helped give Toronto some more exposure but i don't think he's the reason the team still exists today, that is a bit much. You can think what you want, but i know quite a bit about the Raptors history. I've seen tons of old games both playoffs and regular season so i do know what i'm talking about.
    "You never heard of DeMar just google him, the defense don't know what to do wit him"

  24. #59
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Players have gotten in for less, even if he may not deserve it. I mean Bill Bradley is a HOFer....
    Getting into any HOF has always been a bit of a puzzle, but is often based on varying criteria, particularly the Basketball Hall of Fame. BTW, you do realize that it's the Basketball Hall Of Fame, not the NBA Hall Of Fame, right? So college and international prominence, effects on the spread of the game (eg. Yao) or affects on the image of the game sometimes comes into play as well. The criteria was most certainly different 30 years ago than it is today as well. Pro basketball back in the 50s, 60s, and even the 70s was very low on the totem poll. It was a time when people who helped spread the game and/or raised it's image was as important as impressive stats. Pro ball was fighting for it's life.

    I couldn't possibly tell you what factors went into Bradley's election to the HOF, but a few highlights that may have played a big part:
    - Among his many college bball achievements in the 60s, to this day, he still holds a number of college records. They certainly stood out even more 30 years ago.
    - In his senior year, he was considered the best amateur basketball player in the U.S., was Final Four MVP, and was the first basketball player to ever win the annual James E. Sullivan Award for the best U.S. amateur athlete (all sports) of the year. Ya think that may have elevated basketball in the eyes of the public?
    - All this while being a Rhodes Scholar at Princeton, who after being drafted by the Knicks, first went on to Oxford for further education, while helping his Italian team win a pro European Championship.
    - He then served in the Air Force for a bit before joining the Knicks, where he was an integral part of the only 2 championship teams that the Knicks have ever won, also being an All-Star the year they won the second one.

    Beyond basketball play itself, from wikipedia:
    "During his NBA career, Bradley used his fame on the court to explore social as well as political issues, meeting with journalists, government officials, academics, businesspeople, and social activists. He also worked as an assistant to the director of the Office of Economic Opportunity in Washington, D.C., and as a teacher in the street academies of Harlem"

    Do you realize how important those social issues were in the 70s? Even while playing the game, he used his fame and fortune to do great good in American society, all the time putting basketball and the NBA in a very bright light.

    Long story short: There's more than NBA stats that get people into the HOF, especially back then. VC has little to offer except dunks and empty stats, to go along with his "quit on his team, self-entitled" attitude.

  25. #60
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Dude I've seen all the playoffs games with Carter. I'm not saying he's a bad player, he just doesn't deserve to have his jersey retired. He may have helped give Toronto some more exposure but i don't think he's the reason the team still exists today, that is a bit much. You can think what you want, but i know quite a bit about the Raptors history. I've seen tons of old games both playoffs and regular season so i do know what i'm talking about.
    No offense, but watching old film is not the same as experiencing it first hand. Early Vince was a force of nature. What doesn't come across from watching old games is the effect he had on the media. He was a bonafide SUPERstar. When you watch the old games you can get a good sense of how explosive he was, but you don't get that he was a media sensation.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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