View Poll Results: Which legacy has left a bigger impression?

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  • Vince Carter's Positive Legacy

    41 89.13%
  • Andrea Bargnani's Negative Legacy

    5 10.87%
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Thread: Bargnani vs. Vince Carter - Raptors Legacy

  1. #61
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    I voted Bargs negative legacy has had a bigger impact than Vinces positive legacy. And I believe this to be true.
    What did Vince leave behind?
    1. Admittedly created a buzz while he was here and drew attention from US media. But through his whole tenancy, hockey continued to lead the news every night. And the buzz disappeared as soon as he left. A legacy is supposed to live on after you, not end 30 minutes after you leave. So no positive legacy impact just from being here. And anyone that says basketball would have died if he hadn't come along hasn't paid attention to the dollars for this franchise since 1995, when it started. Virtually always been in the top half of money making franchises in the NBA.

    2. Lifted the team while here. Vince was capable of hoisting the raps on his back periodically, and sometimes did so. They were a winning franchise during his stay. On the other hand his leaving (and the way he drove down his own trade value by publicly demanding a trade and taking games off) created a much worse franchise. So no positive lasting legacy from his play.

    3. I'll give you the excitement among young aspiring basketball players and admit that Vince may have been a major part of todays surge of good Canadian basketball talent. On the other hand, just having a team in Canada did have and continues to have an ongoing positive legacy. The Canadian men's basketball team finished 7th in the 2000 Olympics and hasn't qualified to play since. Vince left 9 years ago, so any 20 year old Canadian ball players were 11 then. Not sure how may of the current crop were so excited between the ages of 7 and 11 that they decided to devote themselves sufficiently to basketball so as to become elite talents, and how much of that was simply due to the growth of the basketball infrastructure in Canada because of the Raptors inception in 1995, four years before he arrived. So I will give some credit to Vince, but by no means all. The growth in better high school coaching and in local rep teams etc. started before he came on the scene.

    Bargnani's lasting Negative legacy.
    1. Bargs was chosen first overall in a weak draft. No need to go down the list of ultimately better players to come out of that draft. Bargs has been a net negative player in pretty much every year he has played on the team. Players not chosen by the Raps that year have been net positives. So we can safety say tha the has already had 7 years of negative effect on the Raps. I believe that trumps all potential positives vince may have had.
    2. Having Bargs in house induced BC to try and build a team around AB, making ill-advised trades and free agent acquisitions hoping to some how patch together a Bosh/AB dynamo. Net effect was years of no financial flexibility (still living with it) and missed draft chances (draft picks traded away as BC tried to build around Bargs - not Bargs fault, but there you go, it is what happened).
    3. Bargs showed illusive flashes of potential far more than any other player I have seen in half a lifetime of watching NBA ball, and even after Bosh was gone induced the trading away of picks, and flyers on old, declining free agents.

    Bargs net negative will impact the Raps for at least the next two years, while he is gone. If MLSE hadn't dumped BC it is hard to say how much longer it would have gone...BC may have had to take on some horrendous contract to get AB out of the house.

    Carter's positive impact ended before he even left the team, and the Raps suffered through a complete breakdown for the two years after he was gone. So which legacy will have lasted longer?
    Vinces positive one? Or AB's negative one? I already told you my vote.

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  3. #62
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    Vince Carter is the reason the Raptors are still in Toronto, and has a huge part to play with the current Canadian crop of talent that's infiltrating the NBA (including Wiggins next year).

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Vince Carter is the reason the Raptors are still in Toronto, and has a huge part to play with the current Canadian crop of talent that's infiltrating the NBA (including Wiggins next year).
    I've been a fan since 1995 and I don't recall any talk, before he was drafted, that the Raps were in danger of being moved to the US. The grizzlies lasted in Vancouver until the end of the 2000-2001 season and all I recall was how much more solid the Toronto franchise was...not because they had Carter, but because all of the Corporate boxes and front row and lower bowl season ticket holders. As I recall there was a requirement to hold Rap season tickets if you had Leaf season tickets for the corporate boxes. That alone ensured the Raps were going nowhere.

    Carter left, the team moved on and are still here. I expect better from you Arse, WRt all the bullshit talk about Carter saving the franchise. The season ticket holders before he put in an appearance were season ticket holders going to "Raptors games", not "Carter Showcases." If they didn't get Carter, they would have been drafting better for the next couple of years and could have come up with good players. Probably not as good as Carter, but certainly good enough to continue playing in TO.

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Vince Carter is the reason the Raptors are still in Toronto, and has a huge part to play with the current Canadian crop of talent that's infiltrating the NBA (including Wiggins next year).
    I don't believe this one bit. If that was the case the Raptors would have relocated after he left but they didn't. I think the team as a whole had more to do with the current Canadian crop of talent than just Carter himself. If they did look up to him, he's not a very good role model considering he ditched the team and then dissed us on national television.

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    Vince Carter is the reason the Raptors are still in Toronto, and has a huge part to play with the current Canadian crop of talent that's infiltrating the NBA (including Wiggins next year).
    "The" reason is a stretch. I'd say he played a big role, but you also have to give it to the front office. As terrible as they have been with player management, the business side for Toronto is top notch. The team still thrives and sells out in a hockey-dominated market.

  9. #66
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Anybody remember this?


    This still gets my riled up though, not going to lie.
    I wanted to rip my hair out and punch my television when this happened. There were about 8 technical fouls called during that game... and then Vince nails a 3 at the buzzer.

    I'm pretty sure I vomited all over my living room carpet. I can't remember though, I blacked out.

    Anyways, Vince should not have his jersey retired in Toronto. He was a dick when he left, we boo him everytime he plays in Toronto, he slaps our players and laughs when he's losing.

    Fuck Vince.
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    I don't believe this one bit. If that was the case the Raptors would have relocated after he left but they didn't. I think the team as a whole had more to do with the current Canadian crop of talent than just Carter himself. If they did look up to him, he's not a very good role model considering he ditched the team and then dissed us on national television.
    As I noted in my post, I DO believe Carter electrified the fans and viewers...and there is no doubt that hooked some kids who might have gone on to hockey or some other sport. It also gave young black youth a hero on a Canadian/Toronto team to emulate. I don't think that can be understated.

    But I also stated that the growth in Canadian basketball had already started and would likely have continued, just not to the extent it has today. I think there is a reasonable chance of Canada making it to the final 8 in 2016...and definitely playing for a medal in 2020.

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Yes i was quite young. But i still know how it went down, i had cousins who used to follow the Raptors back then. Honestly i think we're overrating his impact. If it wasn't Vince it would have been T Mac or someone else that put us on the map. Vince's crazy dunking skills played a big role though, i'll give you that.
    The fact is it WAS Vince that put Toronto on the map regardless of whatever other theoretical outcome you want to fantasize about. I'm sure your older cousins can confirm this for you.

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    Default Blame Colangelo and if that's not enough blame yourself. ;)

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Which legacy that was left behind is bigger?

    Bargnani's negative one or Vince Carter's positive one?
    LOL, I thought this was going to be a trolling thread based on the title. I'm glad that was not the case when I began to read it.

    Bargnani's legacy is negative due to our own perception. He didn't take himself 1st overall. It is you who is holding him to a standard that he could not fulfill no matter the effort he could have put in.

    Turns out Bargnani would have been a great late lottery pick.

    Can somebody tell me how much the Bulls got back for Tyrus Thomas when he left the Bulls? How about when Adam Morrison left the Bobcats? How well did those two work out for the teams who drafted them? I ask this because those guys could conceivably have went 1st overall. I remember reading a few bright "experts" draw a Larry Bird comparison to Adam Morrison at the time.

  14. #70
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    Look at the young Canadians in the NBA (and those coming up the ranks). VC got them hooked on the Raps, and then into basketball. Not Nash. VC

    VC captured the imagination of fans. He helped make basketball something young kids could aspire to, instead of lacing on skates.

    Years later, we STILL talk about VC. How soon will AB be nothing but a footnote on how BC failed in his time here?

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    Quote unknown guest wrote: View Post
    Look at the young Canadians in the NBA (and those coming up the ranks). VC got them hooked on the Raps, and then into basketball. Not Nash. VC

    VC captured the imagination of fans. He helped make basketball something young kids could aspire to, instead of lacing on skates.
    Carter probably had a bit to do what that, but I think having a team in Toronto (in general) is a bigger reason.

    It's been 18 years since the Raptors were born. New fans would've been created regardless of who was on the team.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Carter probably had a bit to do what that, but I think having a team in Toronto (in general) is a bigger reason.

    It's been 18 years since the Raptors were born. New fans would've been created regardless of who was on the team.
    Yes "new fans" might've been created, but not a hotbed of potential Canadian basketball stars.

    Having a big NBA name in a city breeds talent. How many top draft picks do you see coming out of places like Milwaukee, Atlanta, Sacramento, Minnesota, etc? These teams haven't really had those brand name type stars that appear on sportscenter every night in the last 20 years.

    If you grow up watching and idolizing a player who has that wow-factor, you end up trying to emulate their game. It's not an accident that there's been an influx of scoring guards in the NBA from the LA area who all grew up watching Kobe as kids (in fact one of them is on our team).

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    Quote unknown guest wrote: View Post
    Look at the young Canadians in the NBA (and those coming up the ranks). VC got them hooked on the Raps, and then into basketball. Not Nash. VC

    VC captured the imagination of fans. He helped make basketball something young kids could aspire to, instead of lacing on skates.

    Years later, we STILL talk about VC. How soon will AB be nothing but a footnote on how BC failed in his time here?
    Kevin Durant's favorite player growing up was Vince Carter. That's one hell of a positive legacy right there. Nuff said.

  19. #74
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Yes "new fans" might've been created, but not a hotbed of potential Canadian basketball stars.

    Having a big NBA name in a city breeds talent. How many top draft picks do you see coming out of places like Milwaukee, Atlanta, Sacramento, Minnesota, etc? These teams haven't really had those brand name type stars that appear on sportscenter every night in the last 20 years.

    If you grow up watching and idolizing a player who has that wow-factor, you end up trying to emulate their game. It's not an accident that there's been an influx of scoring guards in the NBA from the LA area who all grew up watching Kobe as kids (in fact one of them is on our team).
    So without Kobe, they'd be less scoring guards out of the LA area? I highly doubt that.

    The GTA (like LA) is one of the biggest metropolitan hubs in North America. With the growing (global) popularity of basketball, it's simply the law of averages at play here, not a magical aura left by Vince's carcass.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  21. #75
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    So without Kobe, they'd be less scoring guards out of the LA area? I highly doubt that.

    The GTA (like LA) is one of the biggest metropolitan hubs in North America. With the growing (global) popularity of basketball, it's simply the law of averages at play here, not a magical aura left by Vince's carcass.
    agreed.

    Even if we want to argue a single player somehow influenced Canadian/Ontarian/Torontonian players to become 'great', why couldn't we argue that said player was Steve Nash? Kid Canada, who every Canadian sports fan knew (if not almost every Canadian), and every Canadian Basketball fan adored, was blowing up the league at the end of Vince's tenure with the Raps. Couldn't that be seen as the greater influence? He proved a Canadian kid could become not only be an allstar, but an MVP, a HoFer and arguably a legend.

    Guys like Wiggins/Thompson/Bennet were just heading into (or not yet in) their very formative years when Nash and his Suns had eyes glued to TVs, and was a constant on any sports program highlight reel or discussion.

    Vince was a great player when he was here and trying. But this persona of heroism people are surrounding him with is a bit much. He didn't save a franchise, he didn't build basketball in Canada, he didn't put Toronto on the map, he didn't change the franchises future long term and he didn't do any nation building.

    What he was, was a very good player who was alot of fun to watch, and gave the team a shot at building a contender. But he gave all that up when he quit and demanded a trade. That in and of itself set this franchise back years.

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  23. #76
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    agreed.

    Even if we want to argue a single player somehow influenced Canadian/Ontarian/Torontonian players to become 'great', why couldn't we argue that said player was Steve Nash? Kid Canada, who every Canadian sports fan knew (if not almost every Canadian), and every Canadian Basketball fan adored, was blowing up the league at the end of Vince's tenure with the Raps. Couldn't that be seen as the greater influence? He proved a Canadian kid could become not only be an allstar, but an MVP, a HoFer and arguably a legend.

    Guys like Wiggins/Thompson/Bennet were just heading into (or not yet in) their very formative years when Nash and his Suns had eyes glued to TVs, and was a constant on any sports program highlight reel or discussion.

    Vince was a great player when he was here and trying. But this persona of heroism people are surrounding him with is a bit much. He didn't save a franchise, he didn't build basketball in Canada, he didn't put Toronto on the map, he didn't change the franchises future long term and he didn't do any nation building.

    What he was, was a very good player who was alot of fun to watch, and gave the team a shot at building a contender. But he gave all that up when he quit and demanded a trade. That in and of itself set this franchise back years.
    There is no denying the influence of Vince Carter on the next generation. If anything, the influence of Steve Nash might be overstated.....

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptor...es_of_age.html

    Kelly Olynyk on VC:
    “(He) really brought the basketball community to the next level and kids were aspiring to be great or get to that level,” said Olynyk. “Just having that idol and person to look up to and aspire to be and kind of set your goals and your dreams for you is huge, especially as a little kid growing into basketball, growing up and aspiring to be the next thing at that level.”

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--ca...224315146.html

    Anthony Bennett on VC and Nash:
    "I know a lot of people look up to Steve Nash," Bennett said. "But to be honest, I don't know if there is one single guy that really changed the whole thing.
    "As a kid, I used to watch Vince Carter. Vince Carter in Toronto putting down dunks was just crazy. It was something I wanted to do. Every time the Raptors were on I watched and every time he threw down a dunk I would be happy.

  24. #77
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    There is no denying the influence of Vince Carter on the next generation. If anything, the influence of Steve Nash might be overstated.....

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptor...es_of_age.html

    Kelly Olynyk on VC:
    “(He) really brought the basketball community to the next level and kids were aspiring to be great or get to that level,” said Olynyk. “Just having that idol and person to look up to and aspire to be and kind of set your goals and your dreams for you is huge, especially as a little kid growing into basketball, growing up and aspiring to be the next thing at that level.”

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--ca...224315146.html

    Anthony Bennett on VC and Nash:
    "I know a lot of people look up to Steve Nash," Bennett said. "But to be honest, I don't know if there is one single guy that really changed the whole thing.
    "As a kid, I used to watch Vince Carter. Vince Carter in Toronto putting down dunks was just crazy. It was something I wanted to do. Every time the Raptors were on I watched and every time he threw down a dunk I would be happy.
    Well if we look at:

    There is no denying the influence of Vince Carter on the next generation
    Then Bennett

    But to be honest, I don't know if there is one single guy that really changed the whole thing
    it more or less goes to my point. I don't think there was 'a guy' that changed things. But IF there was it could just as easily be Nash as it was Carter as it would have been someone else had Carter not been here or Nash not being in the NBA. Did Carter influence individual players? Probably. Did Nash? Probably. Did the team as a whole? Probably.

    As Nilanka pointed out, we see a law of averages taking shape - the NBA as a whole growing and specifically to this situation a team moving into a large and so far untapped population (Toronto). It was inevitable.

    I don't doubt these guys watched Carter, were huge Carter fans, couldn't wait to watch a Raps game to see Carter or see what kind of crazy highlight reel play he'd pull off. He was probably their favorite player. Maybe even a role model.

    But would they not have become 'great' without Carter (or Nash or whoever for that matter)? I doubt it.
    Would they not have become 'great' if the team had kept, say, McGrady instead of Carter? I doubt it.

    Carter happened to be a great player in the right place at the right time for a period of time. The rest however has just become hyperbole because of how events happened to take place.

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  26. #78
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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Is VC a hall of famer? whats your opinion of this?

    If hes inducted might as well retire the jersey.
    Why? The biggest thing he did in Toronto was win the dunk contest. Does that mean that Ross is destined to have his jersey retired too?

    Yes, 'Vinsanity' was a monumental marketing tool for the Raptors and basketball in Canada, as it turned non-basketball fans into basketball fans, and converted fans of other teams into Raptors fans. However, most of his career and most of his (and his team's) success was after he left Toronto. He didn't achieve enough on the court in a Raptors jersey, or lead the Raptors to enough success, to warrant having his jersey retired.

    If actual basketball achievements and length of tenure are going to be ignored, in favor of off-court impact, then I would argue that 'Mighty Mouse' is far more deserving to have his Raptor jersey retired than Vince Carter. Damon Stoudamire put the Raptors on the map internationally immediately, instantly becoming the face of the new franchise. He set the stage for 'Vinsanity', as far as building Raptors brand awareness is concerned.

    Personally, I think retired jerseys should be an honor reserved for long-time players who lead the team to great success, while also achieving personal glory while wearing the jersey being retired. I don't believe any Raptor player fits this description, primarily due to the significant lack of real success this franchise has had during its existence.

    --

    As for Bargnani, his 'legacy' is nothing more than the result of modern technology giving all of us armchair quarterbacks a soapbox to complain from. I would argue that any negative residual coming from Bargnani is a much bigger reflection on, and indictment of, BC. Bargnani didn't control where he was drafted or what expectations were placed on him. He played basketball to the best of his limited abilities and never talked/acted negatively towards the franchise, his teammates/management/coaches, the city/country he played in, or fans of the Toronto Raptors. He was simply the poster boy for poor managment and ongoing franchise futility, which was only magnified by the fact that it came on the heels of the team's unexpected division championship season, which gave fans (and that GM he is infamously forever linked to) so much false hope. I don't think Bargnani has any 'legacy' whatsoever, except in fan forums like RR.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Aug 13th, 2013 at 10:58 AM.

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  28. #79
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Personally, I think retired jerseys should be an honor reserved for long-time players who lead the team to great success, while also achieving personal glory while wearing the jersey being retired. I don't believe any Raptor player fits this description, primarily due to the significant lack of real success this franchise has had during its existence.
    I couldn't agree more.
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    it more or less goes to my point. I don't think there was 'a guy' that changed things. But IF there was it could just as easily be Nash as it was Carter as it would have been someone else had Carter not been here or Nash not being in the NBA. Did Carter influence individual players? Probably. Did Nash? Probably. Did the team as a whole? Probably.
    Totally agree.. Carter was at one point being molded into a superstar like Kobe or Jordan. I think that's the reason why he may have had an impact to some of these new Canadian stars coming into the league.. I don't think it was because he played for the Raptors specifically.

    Stern for all his faults knows how to market the NBA. It's a player's league and they are very good at marketing all their players. I'm sure there were a lot of NBA stars that influenced Candians to play ball more seriously.

    I started playing ball (not competitively but for fun) because of Jordan.. I know others that got into the game because of Bird/Magic before him.. or AI/Kobe after him, or Lebron now.

    Vince had the makings of a superstar but then decided for whatever reason to slow down. If he had the drive like Kobe or Jordan did then I'm sure he'd still be influencing a lot of kids to play ball but it wouldn't just be in Canada it would be all around the world.

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