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Thread: "How to cure tanking"

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    The Fun As Hell Tournament doesn't work well for lottery, it gives the high draft picks to teams that don't deserve it. It works brilliantly for the 8th spot in each conference though (the number of teams is even perfect for a tourny for each conference).

    I think the idea suggested by the youtube link in the OP message is a pretty solid concept. The only change I would make is that it counts elimination from playoffs based on the league rather than the conference, so that just because the Suns are eliminated in the West they don't get to start, they have to be eliminated from coming 8th in either conference.

    Ties would go to team with the crappier record. And theoretically there would be a lot of ties.

    I think it's a very good system and exploiting the system would be very tough as it would usually only leave even the worst team in the league with less than 20 games to go on their winning streak and get the 25% chance of drafting first (which still doesn't guarantee first overall).
    But why would the worst teams deserve the best pick? Internal growth and other savvy GM moves can get you out of the basement without a high pick. Memphis did it when they didn't get Lebron in 2003.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    Alba Berlin (who I currently support)
    I've lived in Berlin for 10 years and I've never heard anybody say that.

    I'll go see an Albatross game eventually... My daughter is in their under 11 program. That's what I like about European sports, team are more like sports clubs, with youth programmes and stuff.

    I agree that relegation would be great for North American sports.


    Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 4
    Last edited by Quirk; Fri Aug 9th, 2013 at 02:47 PM.

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  4. #43
    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    But why would the worst teams deserve the best pick? Internal growth and other savvy GM moves can get you out of the basement without a high pick. Memphis did it when they didn't get Lebron in 2003.
    That's a fair point. I guess it's just what I've always been used to.

    The whole tourny idea would get us closer to euro sports where crappy teams slowly work their ways up to middle of the line before they even think of making the jump to championship caliber. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

  5. #44
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    Default Awesome idea!

    This is an awesome idea!!!

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Bill Simmons had a great idea to fix tanking during the lockout, iirc it was something like this:

    Take all the non-playoff teams at the end of the season and put them in a Sweet 16 tournament. Single-elimination. The winner would get the #1 pick, 2nd place would get #2, etc. This basically gives a team 0 incentive to tank games. They're going to want to have a good roster available for the tournament so that they have a chance of winning. And the last place team would have just as good of a shot of getting the #1 pick as the 16th last team, because of the single-elimination, any team could get the better of another on any given night.

    This would also increase revenue for the league as well, and make for some very entertaining basketball so doesn't hurt in that respect either. The playoffs would just end later.

    Imagine a Toronto team finishing in 9th (I pray to God we're not actually 9th lol) during the regular season. Heading into the tournament as the top seed in the East and wasting Philly, Charlotte and Milwaukee on their path to playing the Lakers in the finals. A triple OT game, winner takes Wiggins. Raptors down 1, 5 seconds on the clock. Rudy Gay has the ball in his hands, dribbles past Kobe, pulls-up for the J...... BANG RAPTORS WIN RAPTORS WIN! Rudy Gay has just cost himself his starting spot!

    K got a bit carried away...

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  7. #45
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  8. #46
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    I was thinking of a way to maybe fix the tournament thing to prevent the worst teams from being completely screwed.

    The teams who are eliminated in a round would be picking in order of how they finished in the standings. Here's an idea of what it would look like. I would also allow the worst 16 teams in the LEAGUE to participate (so playoff teams could technically be involved, which makes sense because some like Milwaukee were awful).

    So the worst 16 teams in the league are as follows (worst to best):

    Orlando
    Charlotte
    Cleveland
    Phoenix
    New Orleans
    Sacramento
    Washington
    Detroit
    Minnesota
    Portland
    Toronto
    Philadelphia
    Dallas
    Utah
    Milwaukee
    Boston


    Now instead of having the best teams play the worst it would be snake seeding (that probably isn't a real term). What I mean is the seeds/matchups would look like this.

    1. Boston
    2. Orlando
    3. Milwaukee
    4. Charlotte
    5. Utah
    6. Cleveland
    7. Dallas
    8. Phoenix
    9. Philadelphia
    10. New Orleans
    11. Toronto
    12. Sacramento
    13. Portland
    14. Washington
    15. Minnesota
    16. Detroit

    So with this it makes it harder for the better teams to advance because they're playing against better some of the better non-playoff teams as opposed to the true cellar-dwellers. Also there's no strategical advantage to tanking because you're still going to have to play a mid-level non-playoff team in that case.

    In the first round, 8 teams would be eliminated with the remaining 8 competing for the top 8 picks. The eliminated teams would pick from worst to best based on regular season record. So for example if Orlando (last in the NBA) was eliminated in the first round they would still pick 9th, Boston (best of the worst) conversely would pick 16th in the same scenario.

    In the second round, 4 teams would be eliminated with 4 competing for the top 4 picks. So if Orlando was eliminated in the 2nd round they would pick 5th. Boston would pick 8th.

    In the third round, 2 teams would be eliminated with 2 competing for the top 2 picks. So if Orlando was eliminated in the 3rd round they would pick 3rd. Boston would pick 4th.

    In the finals, the winner picks 1st and loser picks 2nd.

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    Quote vino wrote: View Post
    His #1 combined with #2 has to be the best proposal I've seen

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  11. #48
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    Honestly, I am open to any solution if it means I never have to see another article on the benefits of tanking on the Raptors Republic.

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  13. #49
    Raptors Republic Rookie brickwall281's Avatar
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    I'm firmly on the anti tanking side of this argument. We have a playoff team here. Plus, getting Wiggins can't be that hard if he really wants to play for Toronto we can force a trade. Why hasn't anyone thought of that? Sure we would have to give up stars like Gay and DeRozan but well get him while keeping the others.

  14. #50
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Another suggestion:

    If I were in charge of the NBA draft lottery I would wait until the end of the season and then randomly select a number between 30 and 60. I would use the current lottery system but base the lottery on each team’s place in the standings after that randomly chosen number of games.

    By way of example, we ran a simulation using last season. The number we randomly drew was 43. So that means we'd assign teams lottery balls not based on their record at the end of 82 games, but instead based on their record after Game 43.
    This would reduce the incentive for teams to lose on purpose late in the season once they drop out of contention for the playoffs because regardless of which number is randomly drawn, any losses after game No. 60 -- usually played in late February or early March -- would have no bearing on a team’s chances in the lottery. At the very least, this would drastically curtail “tanking season,” assuming any team would want to pack it in much before the All-Star break.

    In order for this approach to be as equitable as the current system requires, a team’s league ranking at a point mid-\season is correlated with their ranking at the end of the season. I took a date from seasons between 1991-2010 and find that there is an 88 percent correlation between a team’s rank after 30 games and their rank at the end of the season (with the average team moving three places in the ranking). If you wait until after the 60th game, the correlation increases to 97 percent (with the average team moving 1.5 places in the ranking).

    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...king-joe-price


    I like this. Certainly adds meaning to end of year games for the bottom feeders... unless they lack any sort of pride or integrity of course.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  16. #51
    Raptors Republic All-Star Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Another suggestion:


    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...king-joe-price


    I like this. Certainly adds meaning to end of year games for the bottom feeders... unless they lack any sort of pride or integrity of course.
    Seems like it would be hard to game the system without alienating fans and possibly opening your team up to fines or some kind of penalty from the league.

    I like to see the team I watch still playing hard at the end of the season.

    I'm onboard for this idea.

  17. #52
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what changes in that situation.

    Teams would still tank, they'd just spend a chunk of the season not caring whether they won games or not - and a chunk desperately trying to lose games at an increasing rate.

    So basically what you'd see is up to 60 games of current 'end of the season' basketball to start the season from tanking teams, and then the remaining 22 games of potentially slightly better (although likely equally bad) to finish the year.

  18. #53
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure what changes in that situation.

    Teams would still tank, they'd just spend a chunk of the season not caring whether they won games or not - and a chunk desperately trying to lose games at an increasing rate.

    So basically what you'd see is up to 60 games of current 'end of the season' basketball to start the season from tanking teams, and then the remaining 22 games of potentially slightly better (although likely equally bad) to finish the year.
    There's usually one or two teams per season that are just blatantly tanking, right from the beginning of the year--but I'd estimate that at least 25-27 teams each year believe they've got a shot at the playoffs before the season starts.

  19. #54
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    There's usually one or two teams per season that are just blatantly tanking, right from the beginning of the year--but I'd estimate that at least 25-27 teams each year believe they've got a shot at the playoffs before the season starts.
    Which ofcourse makes us have to question, just how significant is tanking in the first place? Is this more a case of perception (too many teams are tanking!!) vs reality (only a handful actually tank, alot just suck)?

    If most or a chunk of teams in the lottery just suck, I would expect changing the lottery still has little impact on the quality of the game.

  20. #55
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    ...If most or a chunk of teams in the lottery just suck, I would expect changing the lottery still has little impact on the quality of the game.
    In which case. Just change the lottery and see what happens. I'm not sure how ticket sales would be in cities that started tanking from the first of the season, in with teams in which management managed to trade away all starters and obviously pack 15 2nd and 3rd string players onto their roster.

    Many fans are okay with a team relaxing over the last 25 games, or after they are eliminated from the playoffs, but starting the year in full out tank mode? You see how it plays out on this forum, and it would be even worse with fans that pay for tickets I am thinking.

  21. #56
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    In which case. Just change the lottery and see what happens. I'm not sure how ticket sales would be in cities that started tanking from the first of the season, in with teams in which management managed to trade away all starters and obviously pack 15 2nd and 3rd string players onto their roster.

    Many fans are okay with a team relaxing over the last 25 games, or after they are eliminated from the playoffs, but starting the year in full out tank mode? You see how it plays out on this forum, and it would be even worse with fans that pay for tickets I am thinking.
    There is no doubt that ticket sales will take a hit if a team tanks. But thats no different than today under the current system.

    I think given the mass debate over tanking (both locally and league wide) we can see there are many fans who are comfortable with a team tanking. Also, fans always come back when/if that tanking turns into winning, and they'll just as quickly disappear if a "trying" team is bad.

  22. #57
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    The NBA will never have parity because the roster sizes are so small and a single player can elevate a team into the standings. Tanking will always occur because of that. It is the only sport where tanking really matters.

    If they want to eliminate the concept of tanking the more complicated approach should be no draft and to sign rookies as free agents. That's very risky though for several reasons.

    If they want to keep a draft, then the lottery odds should be even for all teams that are not in the playoffs. So a bad team and the 14th worst team should all have an equal shot at any pick (could even include the 8th seeds if you want to). So the order of picks from 1-14 (or 1-16) can be random every year. It would eliminate tanking since its all random. The worst team may not get the best pick (they could get the 14th or 16th pick) but so what? It's not like the league really can get parity anyways so let the worst teams remain bad until they can get proper management in place.

  23. #58
    Raptors Republic Starter Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    In which case. Just change the lottery and see what happens. I'm not sure how ticket sales would be in cities that started tanking from the first of the season, in with teams in which management managed to trade away all starters and obviously pack 15 2nd and 3rd string players onto their roster.

    Many fans are okay with a team relaxing over the last 25 games, or after they are eliminated from the playoffs, but starting the year in full out tank mode? You see how it plays out on this forum, and it would be even worse with fans that pay for tickets I am thinking.
    Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't see a huge gap in entertainment value between a team that is openly tanking (let's use the Sixers as an example) opposed to a team that just isn't very good, claims they're making a run at the playoffs, but ends up playing a long string of meaningless games to close the season (let's use last year's Raptors). The first scenario at least has some semblance of a plan involved.

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    Public relations people thought that boo-ing was bad when Bargnani was on the Raptors, wait till he comes and plays in the NYC uni...

    OH man... I'd fucking chuck a can of primo @ him.

  25. #60
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure what changes in that situation.

    Teams would still tank, they'd just spend a chunk of the season not caring whether they won games or not - and a chunk desperately trying to lose games at an increasing rate.

    So basically what you'd see is up to 60 games of current 'end of the season' basketball to start the season from tanking teams, and then the remaining 22 games of potentially slightly better (although likely equally bad) to finish the year.
    The change, I think, is down the stretch of the season you get teams paying their top guys who are actually earning their pay cheque. How many phantom injuries occur down the stretch?

    The NBA delivers a product. If the best ingredients are not in that product, fans get annoyed for shelling out for what they thought was a premium product only to realize it is a watered down version - after they have paid. For example, I NEVER would have shelled out money for that NJ/TOR game to end 11-12 season. That is an embarrassment to the league.

    No doubt some teams (Philly - looking at you!) enter the season looking to do sh!t from the get go. However, the rule of thumb in the league is the first 25-30 games is to see where you are and what you have. If teams are giving it their all and plain old suck, well, that is not tanking.

    I must say, I really like this approach. The correlations are pretty close between 30, 60, and 82 games. If anything I'd look at making the window for the games smaller. Instead of 30 game window (30 to 60) - go 15-20 game window and lower the upper end from 60 to 50 (before all-star break/trade deadline) making the window 35-50/30-50.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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